Antler Point Restrictions

[Big Dave2]

A balanced age structure helps the population of whitetail deer and we do nothing for it.

How does this help the population of white tailed deer? In my opinion QDM only works to eventually lower the deer population.

[Musky Buck]

Sounds good Dave fine, no immature roosters gang. We can't shoot cub bears, a lot of duck hunters are drake only, geese are a nuisance to some, I'll just have my dog retrieve the pheasant, I'll squeeze it and 1 cackle means a 1 year old, 2 is a 2 year old... Problem is it is easy to tell an immature buck from an older buck. I didn't realize the buck age structure was such a mess until I talked with the DNR's this year, Bingo Vister- however like in Vister and I, our hunting areas and yours to are producing larger bucks because few hunters or no hunters shoot little ones and that is a huge reason why, why did so many people respond they would like to see bigger bucks like 82%, but they don't want to try to change anything to get there. I'm arguing on behalf of those that wish this was the case in there area. Once again, read Page 10, february 27th outdoor news on AR. I'm also a guy that doesn't want to have to apply for a buck tag. I appreciate the chance each season to try and get the biggest buck in the woods, if I do fine if I don't you just hope for next season, I don't need to gun one down so I can tell people "yep got my buck". When I do tag a hog pretty much my wife and my dad other than the locker plant are the ones to see it. I'm not the clown driving around with it half hanging in and half hanging out of the box of my truck. Bottom line is our bucks are getting about as much pressure as a human being can pressure them. I know there are several other things I hope our state can try, but change for most is hard to handle unless it's benefitting your pocket book. The need the meat is a direct reference to if you are paying your monthly internet bill, you don't need the meat, or services mean more to a person than sustanance. Meaning someone told me they needed the meat, but driving by their home and seeing snowmobiles and satellite tv and a couple thousand x-mas lights on for 3 months, cmon. Of course no one should stop hunting, we love it !

[RuttenBuck]

How does this help the population of white tailed deer? In my opinion QDM only works to eventually lower the deer population.

In areas where the deer herd could use a little thinning (antlerless in particular), yes QDM would promote lowering the overall deer population, but not to doe extinction that you like to claim. I will reiterate again what many QDM hunters have already said. I don't care about QDM being practiced in areas that there are not enough deer already. The bigger issue to address there would be to raise deer populations to a reasonable level and then promote herd balance and age structure once that has occurred. We are talking specifically in areas where there are too many deer. The high levels of deer populations are at a greater risk of disease, greater risk of winter kill and can have negative affects on habitat. These are the areas we would like to focus on balancing the herd and getting a better age structure. As far as your comment about managing deer completely opposite of other species - how many of them other species are too abundant? I see very few pheasants each year, a few turkeys and a few ducks. I think we should manage them a little differently.

[Musky Buck]

Hey Rutten I see those go/grow signs scattered all over the leaf river bottom. Dave, I do agree that there is the other side of the fence on every issue. I just think what is happening to our young bucks is crazy. What if we AR'ed only the rifle season ? Leave bow and muzzy out of it? What if we allowed selective hunters to have a 9 day season and the meat gang 4 days ? I know I'm throwing out crazy ideas, but 90% of the guys I talk to aren't too satisfied with the number of mature bucks in there area. Usually you get well there's a few around. Just think, can a mature buck have a home range of a mile by a mile ? If yes, in your area try to estimate how many deer stands are in your area in that mile by a mile. This is part of I better shoot him now or the next guy will theory comes into play, if you knew that young buck would be safe more people would hold off. So how do we as a 82% population who wants to see more mature bucks, get there ? What could protect the rookie bucks the most, I know cross tagging party hunting but people can skirt that with extra tags, but ????????????So what is the solution?

[Black_Bay]

Read the March 13th Outdoor News. There is a Q and A with Lou Cornicelli. He talks about AR, party hunting ect. It gives some insight to what the DNR is thinking right now. He also talks about another hunter survey.

[Bear55]

So if you're a trophy hunter that merely wants to see large bucks and prefers to take does, why bother hunting bucks at all? You can enjoy your passion 365 days a year with a camera. Let us enjoy our passion for 9 days a year and in my case, it's usually 3 days a year if I can get the time off.

Bob

Or if you are in it for the meat why not just start a deer farm and raise your own venison. Just think you could hand feed them corn and massage the deer like they do with that kobe beef. You'd have all the meat you would need.

[Musky Buck]

Why do I hope we try AR ? Because there doesn't seem to be many alternatives that levels the playing field for everyone. Luckily, I have good land with neighbors and we all feel the same and we all share in taking large bucks realizing the young bucks are the future to harvesting big bucks, we get our share of does/anterless and even 1 step further shoot the smaller of the 2 fawns if you want a fawn, generally it will be a doe fawn, this year less deer around so the parties didn't take as many anterless. We just manage what we have in our area and none of us feel since we bought a license we are owed a deer, we have all gone some seasons where we don't get a chance at a bruiser, but at least they are there and we each have that same chance. Friends of mine, a few miles away haven't seen a mature buck in years, theory by the neighboring hunters is if you see horns, fire and the friends don't have enough land that they can hole up in. I told them to yes, sell your land and hope to find an area that produces mature bucks year after year. The cycle continues for them and they already know the chance at a mature buck for them next year is already about gone.

[james_walleye]

I think its obvious you've never seen QDM at work. QDM WILL lower the deer herd numbers in some areas. QDM isnt about having all deer per acre thats possible. A healthy deer herd isnt judged on numbers. A healthy deer herd doesnt have 85% of the buck harvest at 1 1/2 years old, thats called terrible. And if you read any of my posts you would see that im not saying the whole state of MN be under one rule. Some parts of MN would benefit from AR. Some parts don't have the deer population to put that rule in place. You might hunt an area like this, myself and others arent talking about putting regs in place for areas like this.

[james_walleye]

It is absolutely nothing like walleye fishing. Walleye slots were created to protect the prime breeding females thus increasing the overall population. Many of us that catch alot of walleyes were practicing this well before it became law.

No, walleye slots were created to force people into selective harvest. There has never been an issue with the numbers of walleyes in Big Winnie, the slots were put in place to protect the breeding females and to get some size structure into the system. 10 years ago you would be hard pressed to catch an 18" fish the week we are up there. Now we catch dozens every week. 30 years ago no one released walleyes. People started to see the benefit of selective harvest and we are where we are now. 30 years ago people didnt let a buck walk by them. Now there are people out there seeing the benefit of letting a young buck walk. Yes, its basically selective harvest. And yeah it is the same in the fact that people don't want to be told to release a walleye just the same as they don't want the DNR telling them to let a young buck walk.

[james_walleye]

Originally Posted By: PEATMOSS

It is absolutely nothing like walleye fishing. Walleye slots were created to protect the prime breeding females thus increasing the overall population. Many of us that catch alot of walleyes were practicing this well before it became law.

Absolutely correct!

James_Walleye

If you want to compare walleye slots to deer hunting, it would essentially be the equivalent of protecting does(breeding females) and harvesting bucks. QDM guys are advocating quite the opposite.

QDM guys advocate selective harvest. A walleye slot is selective harvest being forced because some people feel its against their religion to put a walleye back in a lake.

[Musky Buck]

Bingo James. The polled hunters at 82% claim they want to see larger bucks, that's a fairly high %. That is what the majority wants I would guess. How do we get there ? That's why we are here throwing out what we think would be worth a try. I agree AR might not be the answer in the area you hunt. We've just been practicing this without naming it AR for years and the payoff has been great. The deal is I hunt 3 separate areas so I see it clearly. 2 areas you have a legit chance at a mature buck roughly a 5-1 chance, some years 3 or 4 to 1., in the other area the rate is about 20 hunters and 1 mature buck harvested yearly. Guess where I spend my time, the bucks in the overharvested buck area I already know that next fall magically these mature bucks won't start showing up, they are already deceased before their first shave. In my other areas I've been watching mature bucks on tcam and by scouting the area, they are there and they will be there next season unless a car gets them which is seldom in our area. The meat argument is overused, but to the few people that can not live without it, I'd be open to you gunning down any deer during any month if you truly need it. In my town the people that need the meat are well known and we bring ducks,geese,deer whatever to them as they can't afford to hunt, don't have an area, etc. The only drawback to us getting bigger bucks is probably more hospital visits, bigger deer are much harder to get out of the woods and swamps, much tougher on the legs and lower back, I'm still feeling last fall's goat.

[BobT]

Originally Posted By: BobT

So if you're a trophy hunter that merely wants to see large bucks and prefers to take does, why bother hunting bucks at all? You can enjoy your passion 365 days a year with a camera. Let us enjoy our passion for 9 days a year and in my case, it's usually 3 days a year if I can get the time off.

Bob

Or if you are in it for the meat why not just start a deer farm and raise your own venison. Just think you could hand feed them corn and massage the deer like they do with that kobe beef. You'd have all the meat you would need.

There's a rather significant cost difference between buying a camera and buying a tract of land, paying the annual taxes, buying the feed, obtaining the proper permits, etc. Your rebuttal was a bit off the mark.

Perhaps since what you're after is mature bucks I'll throw it right back at you. You buy the land, permits, feed/seed, pay the taxes, fence it in to protect your investment, and grow the herd to meet your personal specifications. Hey, I have another idea. You could control your herd and even cover some of the cost by selling hunting opportunities on your private preserve and turn your passion into a business to boot!

OR

You could just visit an already established preserve right now.

Bob

[PEATMOSS]

Of course most deer hunters would like to see more big bucks. Isn't that sorta like asking a fat kid if he likes ice cream?

Here's where we differ. I maintain that if a large majority of hunters are PERSUEDED to buy into this, there would be absolutely no reason for further regulation. A great example of this is largemouth bass. There are very few regulations governing what can be kept, however it is very rare to see someone hauling around a stringer of hawgs. If you really feel that you have to force this upon others, doesn't that undermine your argument for the widespread support that you claim?

[buckhunter21]

But theres the problem it only takes a few hunters to take out 5 or 6 smaller bucks with the way the regs are now. Lets say you have 10 hunters on a piece of land with 10 bucks running around. 8 of these hunters let the yearling bucks go but the 2 shoot what they see when they see it. If they have a wife, daughter, son whoever with an extra tag those 2 hunters could take out a majority if not all of those bucks. So even if you do have a majority i dont think its possible with the attitudes that some people have to go about this without some kind of regulation change.

[PEATMOSS]

Sorry buckhunter, I'm not following your argument.

If someone is tagging a deer with the tag of a non-hunting wife,daughter,son, then they are criminals,in violation of the law and making more laws for law abiding citizens is not going to stop criminals. (see any thread on gun control)

My argument is very simple. IF the vast majority of hunters buy into this, then there is no need for further regulations. If they do not, then I believe you are imposing the will of a vocal minority onto the majority. It is that simple.

[buckhunter21]

I agree with you they are criminals and I hope every year people like that will be caught and punished but they hardly ever do. And thats why it is so frustrating knowing that someone is doing something illegal and not being able to prove it. How do you prove that person whos tag was used wasnt hunting? I dont know but dont you think it would be a little easier to catch someone breaking a point restriction law. The proof would be right there. I know some people would find ways to hide smaller deer but you just have to accept that there are always going to be people who wont follow the rules. But it would be alot easier to catch someone breaking that law because there would be no way around it, the deer would be right in front of them. Yea i wish everyone would start passing up these young bucks without any kind of new laws but i just dont see it happening.

[Bowfin]

What's up with all this daytime chating? Aren't you all supposed to be working?

I've heard game managers say we are 1 bad winter away from "bucks only" again in parts of the north. If this would happen, I hope you wouldn't expect everyone to sit and wait for a trophy - doe shooting wouldn't be possible.

Anyway - in the north - I don't think you can shoot all the big bucks. There is just too much cover. I think there are just as many big bucks in our northern big woods than there were 50 years ago (I have pictures of our deer camp and "meat pole" going back to the 1940's). The deer herd is larger now and we are seeing more deer and hence a greater number of small bucks than folks were 50 years ago. The big bucks are still out there probably in similar numbers but they are still tough to consistantly harvest.

I still think we are influenced by all the videos of multiple big bucks standing out in food plots on game ranches and we think we can or want to replicate that on our public lands. Not realistic and not what hunting is meant to be.

We want the easy way - a chance at a big buck every year - like they have in the videos. Not realistic and not desirable for the sport of deer hunting. My grandpa shot several big bucks in his lifetime - but it was done over a 50 year period and in between were a lot of does and smaller bucks.

Everyone can go out after that big buck right know - just don't expect it to be as easy as you see on the TV. Remember "this ain't Hollywood" - I for one wouldn't want it to be.

[vister]

bowfin, fortunately but unfortunately i am laid off!

[Bear55]

Originally Posted By: Bear55

Originally Posted By: BobT

So if you're a trophy hunter that merely wants to see large bucks and prefers to take does, why bother hunting bucks at all? You can enjoy your passion 365 days a year with a camera. Let us enjoy our passion for 9 days a year and in my case, it's usually 3 days a year if I can get the time off.

Bob

Or if you are in it for the meat why not just start a deer farm and raise your own venison. Just think you could hand feed them corn and massage the deer like they do with that kobe beef. You'd have all the meat you would need.

There's a rather significant cost difference between buying a camera and buying a tract of land, paying the annual taxes, buying the feed, obtaining the proper permits, etc. Your rebuttal was a bit off the mark.

Perhaps since what you're after is mature bucks I'll throw it right back at you. You buy the land, permits, feed/seed, pay the taxes, fence it in to protect your investment, and grow the herd to meet your personal specifications. Hey, I have another idea. You could control your herd and even cover some of the cost by selling hunting opportunities on your private preserve and turn your passion into a business to boot!

OR

You could just visit an already established preserve right now.

Bob

I'm a fair chase hunter so I don't believe in high fences. I was just putting a spin on your first rediculous post.

[Bear55]

Bowfin

I agree anything you see on TV is not realistic, however we can do so much better than we are now. All the proof in the world is on this HSOforum. http://hillviewmanagement.com/

They are a group of private land owners who were simply tired of the same old hunting and did something about it. I'm sure they don't have near the hunting you see on TV but I'm sure its better hunting that 99% of the rest of us experience. This is possibly in every corner of the state if the 82% who want bigger bucks could back up their words with action.

[picksbigwagon]

Private land owners are the key words Bear, not state mandated restrictions. How will the state enforce these restrictions? Where is that funding going to come from? Are you willing to increase your license fee's to cover these increases in enforcement? From 25 bucks to $250, and you can only hunt one season and take one deer?

I have posted on other similar posts and there is no state bordering Minnesota that has the QDM/AR/what ever you want to call it, that many on here are speaking in favor of. After at least 2 months of reading posts like this and similar to it I recognize there are areas of the state with a low number of deer, and I am not sure what to think of age structure yet, but there are other considerations to take into account here like the economic impact having a bigger population of bigger deer will have. Namely crop damage and vehicle accidents.

If you are truly serious about this, then why are you not proposing a moritorium on all buck deer hunting for at least 3 years. Not likely? Well how about this: No one, ABSOLUTELY NO ONE hunts from the last weekend of october until the 2nd weekend in December. Protect the rut and you will see the bigger buck numbers increase.

This has been a civil topic and I commend all who have been posting on this, lets keep it up..............

[PEATMOSS]

I'm still waiting for someone to answer the simple question, IF there is such widespread support for this idea, why in heavan do we need new regulations???

[Getanet]

Peatmoss, as you've already pointed out, anytime you ask someone if they want a favorable outcome you'll get a high "yes" response. That doesn't they'll accept the means of getting it.

I've read enough of these post here and in the Archery thread to understand we're all talking about different parts of the state. Where I hunt there are plenty of deer and you can have the opportunity to get a bigger buck if you're willing to put in the time and venture into some pretty thick and nasty swamps.

It sounds like in other parts of the state you might not have the same opportunity. Perhaps specific areas with struggling deer populations need to be managed differently.

But I'm against any state-wide proposals.

[archerystud]

Getanet is dead on.

I understand if you hunt up in the North woods and don't see many deer that you want to shoot. But I also think there are far less hunters up there per huntable acre.

Where I hunt in So MN there are a lot of fields then the woods are broken up into small 20's and 40's which are full of hunters. A deer (especially a small buck during the rut) just doesn't have enough cover to make it to 3.5 years old.

I would like to see some small change to at least get more 2.5 year old bucks in the area I hunt. I have hunted in managed areas and we will NOT see a big buck behind EVERY tree. It won't happen and I laugh at people that say that. I don't need to see mega bucks just a few more in the 120-130 inch scoring range would be nice.

The other question I would like answered is this?

Take the following scenario: A mature buck, small buck, and a 1.5 year old doe are standing in front of a hunter. All are equally tough shots and the hunters have plenty of doe tags available. Why will 99% of hunters shoot at the big buck?

Even if the mature buck is a tougher shot I would bet 95% of hunters will still attempt the shot at the mature buck. The doe is much better table fare so a meat hunter should shoot that doe first but it practically never happens.

What it does say is that a vast majority of hunters are more interested in shooting a mature buck than any other deer. I will admit that it is what I want to shoot. I just would like to give EVERYONE more opportunites at more mature bucks. If this only happens in So. MN I'm fine with that.

[Jameson]

...Take the following scenario: A mature buck, small buck, and a 1.5 year old doe are standing in front of a hunter....

Take the following scenario: Two grocery bags of meat and a large set of antlers, One grocery bag of meat and a small set of antlers, and just a single grocery bag of meat without any antlers are in three separate piles. Which one do I want to take home with my one tag? Might not even be allowed to take the doe home.

...just another way to look at things....