Antler Point Restrictions

[B. Amish]

It didn't take 50 or 100 years in Mississippi (see my quotes from earlier)

It started to happen in 10 years!!!!

[Jameson]

...The Minnesota herd has great genetics....

YES!!!, the Minnesota herd has great genetics, and puts out many a big buck EVERY year. So why change what ain't broke?

The genetics would really show in the first 10 years. After that it would be downhill. I guess if I am only concerned about the hunting for the next 10 years I could support AR. I want what is best for the future, don't think it's AR.

[RuttenBuck]

I understand some of the concerns that people have mentioned with the long term affects of AR. However, I have read many articles about culling inferior bucks that has done absolutely little to nothing to the overall antler and body size of the deer herd. It is nearly impossible to control genetics in free-ranging deer. With that being said, maybe we don't need AR forever, maybe just 3-5 years. Is that going to skew our genetics negatively? Very unlikely. But, it will improve our buck to doe ratio and age structure of bucks. After a few years, people would start being more selective on their own as they would know and see bigger deer around and would try to harvest one of those deer instead of that first little buck that walks by.

[Musky Buck]

I'm with ya rutten buck, wadena,ot counties. I hear the argument clearly and both sides have good points. I guess I'm leaning toward you shoot a buck you are done buck hunting. I'm tired of the few guys around that blast their wife one, daughter one, mom one and maybe never use their own tag saving it for a now extended muzzleloader season for rifle and bow hunters. There is just no way to stop the abuse of our tagging system. I'd still like to see a few years of AR so some of these inferior bucks can see their 2nd birthday. I wish they'd have an every other year AR or something. Many of our does recently are being bred by inferior bucks already anyway. I still am not a big believer in what other states are doing, we need a MN plan for our herd.

[B. Amish]

There is a big difference between someone "culling" a buck and AR's.

AR's would mean that everyone in the state would be doing the same thing. When everyone is selecting a buck with 4 points or more per side, you're going to have an enormous impact on 50% of the gene pool.

[Bear55]

It didn't take 50 or 100 years in Mississippi (see my quotes from earlier)

It started to happen in 10 years!!!!

You post an article from Mississippi, then someone else posts one from Michigan that has a positive impact. It doesn't really matter because people have opinions and most of the time they use they skew the facts to represent their own opinion. Would AR's for 25 years decimate our gene pool? I doubt it.

[BobT]

Quote:

I'm tired of the few guys around that blast their wife one, daughter one, mom one and maybe never use their own tag saving it for a now extended muzzleloader season for rifle and bow hunters.

How would the change you propose have any effect on this problem? Unless mom, wife, and daughter are also hunting in the party at the time these deer are taken, these deer are already being taken illegally and will continue to be.

Bob

[B. Amish]

Originally Posted By: B. Amish

It didn't take 50 or 100 years in Mississippi (see my quotes from earlier)

It started to happen in 10 years!!!!

You post an article from Mississippi, then someone else posts one from Michigan that has a positive impact. It doesn't really matter because people have opinions and most of the time they use they skew the facts to represent their own opinion. Would AR's for 25 years decimate our gene pool? I doubt it.

The Michigan article basically stated the obvious. AR's help more bucks get to 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 years old. Most states haven't had AR's in place long enough to see the effects that they are having on genetics. That's why the Mississippi study is more relevant to the genetic side of this arguement, because they have had the AR's in place since '95 and are seeing the effects on genetics.

I'm not arguing that AR's don't work to help get an older age class of bucks. My point is the negative efffect they will have on the gene pool, especially if the whole state is under the same restriction.

[Black_Bay]

B Amish could you tell us where you found that Mississippi deer article? I'd like to read the whole thing.

Thanks.

[B. Amish]

http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p2427.pdf

[buckhunter21]

B. Amish you make a good point i do agree that would be a problem. But how many 3.5 and 4.5 year old bucks have you seen in THIS STATE that dont have at least 4 points on one side. I have seen exactly notta! Yea the few deer that do have inferior genetics would maybe get an extra year to breed but i dont think that there are going to be many bucks if any that will be protected until 3.5+. Never been to mississippi and have no idea what there deer herd is like but im just guessing it doesnt have the genetics our state does.

[Getanet]

Can some of the QDM guys on here please say if you hunt private or public land? I can’t help but think that guys with their own land are more apt to push QDM. I’m more willing to listen to someone argue for QDM if I knew they were hunting public land.

As I see it now, most of the QDM guys posting on this site eventually disclose that they are mainly frustrated with not being able to turn their plot of land into a buck utopia. If you're hunting your own land you’ve already got it better than most…

[Black_Bay]

Thanks BA. I look forward to reading the report.

Getanet, I hunt public land but don't consider myself a QDM guy even though I've advocated certain management in the threads. My opinions are more to add my preferences into the fray since some are so vocal on changes they want. Yea I would like to see more big bucks but I don't agree with some of the opinions on how we should do it. That's why I've thrown my 2 cents in.

[B. Amish]

B. Amish you make a good point i do agree that would be a problem. But how many 3.5 and 4.5 year old bucks have you seen in THIS STATE that dont have at least 4 points on one side. I have seen exactly notta! Yea the few deer that do have inferior genetics would maybe get an extra year to breed but i dont think that there are going to be many bucks if any that will be protected until 3.5+. Never been to mississippi and have no idea what there deer herd is like but im just guessing it doesnt have the genetics our state does.

I can probably count on two hands the number of 3 1/2 and 4 1/2 year old bucks that I've seen in this state, period. That's not a very big sample size to be drawing any kind of conclusion from.

I agree that there isn't likely very many 6 or 7 point 4 1/2 year old bucks in this state, but AR's would promote that.

[buckhunter21]

I have access to my grandpas old farm land. We recently planted most of it in pines but they are only about knee high right now so they dont hold many deer. So i would say i hunt public land 80% or more of the time. Not sure why owning your own land would make you want QDM any more or less if theres bigger deer on private land theres gonna be bigger deer on public land.

[certified jumbo]

i've been watching this one for awile and i don't want to get to involved, but here's my .02 cents.

we have a 200 acre and 180 acre parcel. we choose not to shoot the 1.5 year old bucks. most times, but not all you can tell the difference in age. thats the only deer that gets the free pass for us. we've been doing this for 5 years and it has worked well. again, this is our choice and i'm not trying to push it on anybody else.

i'm not a big component of AR. but there is no way i buy that over time it will hurt the over all genetics of your deer. can't sell that one to me. i could give a rip what someone tells me in mississipi.

we have to take baby steps in order to get to AR. just straight up implimenting it would not work since the majority don't want it. a good first step would be NO party hunting for bucks. once that is implimented then you can look at the next step. but for now, its gotta be baby steps for anything to work.

cj

[Musky Buck]

So I'm reading that AR would work well if we backed up the opening of rifle season even by a week which would allow the AR decent bucks to breed before gun season ? I hunt all private ground. I have 3 rifle hunting areas. Area 1- Lose no sleep, no one is shooting baby bucks. Area 2- I cross my fingers everytime a runt buck goes by fearing the crack of the rifle 10 minutes later. Area 3- You take an immature buck and you are done hunting there forever. Guess what- areas 1 and 3 hold mature bucks and has mature bucks every year and area 2 occassionally has a mature buck, more often though it's last year's fawns sporting a basket rack, then the cycle continues to where no one is taking a decent buck. If we allow lets say hunters 21 and under and 60 and over to take any buck, they'd get some of these inferior animals off the hoof. I still think a legitamite 20 " spread, 210 dressed, thick racked 8 pointer is still a quality animal and it isn't like it's just his genetics in our area now, I see all sizes and kinds of racks, that 210 8 Pt. his first year was a Y on one side and no horn on the other, at 2 1/2 he was a large 6 pt. And at 3 1/2 when we gunned him down he was that big 8. We could've gunned him down as a 1 horn Y, or a 6, but left him alone and his 3rd year he was a dandy, age trumps most other factors.

[Bear55]

I can probably count on two hands the number of 3 1/2 and 4 1/2 year old bucks that I've seen in this state, period.

This statement here sums up our deer heard, and you have probably seen more mature deer than most. I am not huge AR fan if its that or the same old management I will gladly line up behind AR. Even if AR's were enforced for a short time or every few years it might be enough to open the eyes of the state and guys would start letting some deer walk.

[B. Amish]

i'm not a big component of AR. but there is no way i buy that over time it will hurt the over all genetics of your deer. can't sell that one to me. i could give a rip what someone tells me in mississipi.

cj

[DaveT]

I agree that there are better ways than AR to get the results we're after. I would look at it as a last resort, if at all. Party hunting for bucks and every 3rd doe tag getting slapped on a buck fawn are the 2 biggest problems we're facing.

I was encouraged that the buck harvest did not drop much in Michigan, though. It proves that there will be enough older bucks in the population to provide the same opportunity we have now. All of it does no good and is a waste of time if you continue to allow party hunting for bucks, however.

[james_walleye]

Yeah the whole problem with comparing MN deer genetics to Mississippi deer genetics is its like comparing the USC football program to the U of M football program....its not even close. Minnesotas deer genetics are superior, Mississippis is horrible. If you have a whole load of inferior genetically inferior deer running around breeding in MS, yeah protecting these deer you will see a negative impact. But your dealing with should i shoot this 3 year old buck that is a 4 pointer or have a law in place to let him walk. This is QDM in MN: should i harvest this 3 year old 8 pointer thats 125" because he isnt a 10-pointer, or should i let him walk. Its not comparing apples to apples. You don't have a bunch of genetically inferior deer walking around MN. About the only way you see a 2 or 3 year old buck in MN with less than 4 points on a side is due to injury. You don't have multiple 3 year old 4 pointers walking around the same property.

One thing people need to realize in this debate as well as how diverse MN's deer habitat is. You arent going to get a hunter in southwestern MN to go along with antler point restrictions when they have a deer herd in which they have a hard time seeing deer period in a firearm season. Compared to the guy in SE MN bluff country in which deer are much more populous. There are parts of MN where just getting a deer is a big challenge. There are parts of MN where a guy might be able to pass up 6 bucks on opening morning of the gun season. These areas need to be managed differently.

[Rippinlip]

How about a group drawing?

If you know you are going to be hunting in a group, you send in for a group deal.

Part of 10 gets 3 buck tags, they can now party hunt and harvest up to that number of deer.

If you buy a regular license, it is a "no party hunting for bucks" or "cross tagging".....

I am against EAB, have some problems with AR, but would favor AR if need to be.

[B. Amish]

Yeah the whole problem with comparing MN deer genetics to Mississippi deer genetics is its like comparing the USC football program to the U of M football program....its not even close. Minnesotas deer genetics are superior, Mississippis is horrible. If you have a whole load of inferior genetically inferior deer running around breeding in MS, yeah protecting these deer you will see a negative impact. But your dealing with should i shoot this 3 year old buck that is a 4 pointer or have a law in place to let him walk. This is QDM in MN: should i harvest this 3 year old 8 pointer thats 125" because he isnt a 10-pointer, or should i let him walk. Its not comparing apples to apples. You don't have a bunch of genetically inferior deer walking around MN. About the only way you see a 2 or 3 year old buck in MN with less than 4 points on a side is due to injury. You don't have multiple 3 year old 4 pointers walking around the same property.

One thing people need to realize in this debate as well as how diverse MN's deer habitat is. You arent going to get a hunter in southwestern MN to go along with antler point restrictions when they have a deer herd in which they have a hard time seeing deer period in a firearm season. Compared to the guy in SE MN bluff country in which deer are much more populous. There are parts of MN where just getting a deer is a big challenge. There are parts of MN where a guy might be able to pass up 6 bucks on opening morning of the gun season. These areas need to be managed differently.

We're not comparing our genetics to Mississippi's genetics. It doesn't matter if ours are better or worse. (but, how do you know that Mississippi's genetics are horrible).

The point is, is that AR's do two things to lower the genetic potential of the herd:

1. AR's make the cream of the crop 1 1/2 year olds legal to shoot. You can easily argue that these are the deer that have the most promising genetics. Being that they are legal and shootable, they won't be able to pass on their genetics if they are dead.

2. AR's protect deer under the restriction. Most are young bucks. BUT, the ones that have poorer racks are protected longer. Maybe they are below the AR for 2-3 years. Maybe they never grow a legal size rack. They continue to live and breed passing on their genetics.

There are the same genetic concerns in fishing when you have slot limits. But, that's a whole other can of worms.

[Musky Buck]

BobT that is what I meant, this change wouldn't change any of that.

[chub]

How about a group drawing?

If you know you are going to be hunting in a group, you send in for a group deal.

Part of 10 gets 3 buck tags, they can now party hunt and harvest up to that number of deer.

If you buy a regular license, it is a "no party hunting for bucks" or "cross tagging".....

So your party of ten happens to hunt a doe draw zone with very limited tags. They have been drawn for none. That might work once, but the following year, I would bet my house that all the members of that party would be hunting amazingly close to one another, quite possibly on the same parcel of land, but they wouldn't be "party hunting"... .

Or, half of the party that just went to be with friends and family and get out of the house for a few days would just quit altogether. It wouldn't bother me personally to see less people out there, but I would imagine the DNR would cringe at the thought of loosing more revenue.

Deer hunting is many things to many people. As things stand, it would seem to cater to most pretty well. We've got an enourmous population of hunters, that effectively hunt for four continuous months, then add the pheasant guys that are moving deer, the grouse guys that are moving deer, the waterfowl guys that are moving deer... . I'm not going to say there are alot of "big" bucks out there, but I seem to see more than a few every year. It's usually after dark, or back in the middle of an area that would be extremely hard, if not impossible to hunt.

I guess I'm happy the way things are. If I just want a deer to eat, I have options available. If I want to go after a "trophy", I can do that too. Odds might not be very good at getting one, but that in my eyes makes it even more satisfying. If everyone was shooting a "trophy" buck, would it really be all that special anymore?

I guess in my eyes, no.