Support a minimum rack size???

[Mark Christianson]

Flash,
I will disagree.

Have you seen the size of the bucks they shoot in Canada?
Plenty of those Monster Bucks from Realtree Outdoors are shot in some harsh areas in southern Canada.

[SCCO9803]

Interesting the point of video taped hunts and hunting programs are brought up in this discussion of rack size. While this is a viable point it is important to remember that many of these hunts take place on private hunting preserves where gentetic lines for these deer are purchased. Many times these deer seen on television shows and videos are not elligible for BC or PY because they are not truely nature wild deer.

[Mark Christianson]

.... and if they are not game farms, they are practicing a form of QDM.

[mabr]

well i might be simplifying things here but ive yet to see a DEAD 1.5 year old 4, 6 ,or 8 pt buck ever make it into the books .let um go so they can grow !

[Fisher Dave]

You guys let them go .. It makes it all the easier for me to fill my freezer when you guys care less about the meat, just the antlers.

On my land this year there is a 10 & 14 point buck. I have sighted both of these deer several times, and missed one shot with a bow this year. The following day I harvested a 5 pointer... These deer providing they dont wander by other hunters (surrounding property), are likely to be bigger next year.. but until then are great breeders providing a good blood line for the future. If it was not for these deer, there would be nothing but adolescent deer for mating in my area. So if the 2 big bucks were harvested ... who could really say what the future would bring?

As for others making a comment about hunting becoming a *true sport* in this new age and *meat hunting days are over* .. you watch entirely too much TV. If it is that important to hunt a trophy, go pay the $5000 it will cost to shoot one on the preserves, or $2000 to take one of the *management bucks*. You can sit in one of their towers and pick your deer out of the 30 deer in the field that given afternoon... there is your *sport* aspect.

When this topic was 1st started, someone had mentioned something about incorperating the Pennsylvania laws ... If that would happen here, I will be sure to put my extra $16 aside for the fine I get when I harvest a buck without the 4 point on one side minimum. The 4 point/one side law was just incorperated last year in PA, nobody knows what the long term affect will be.. why dont some of you wait and see before wishing too hard for change.

I'm not bashing anyone here .. but theres a lot of people that need to get away from the television for a while and see what is going on away from the deer preserve(our hunting locations). Some of us would still rather eat venison, not antlers... imagine that.

[can it be luck?]

Wi. deer hunting kicks off in 1 hour. I'll be shooting for meat. I'm going hunting boys!

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[This message has been edited by can it be luck? (edited 11-22-2003).]

[Mayfly]

Well I guess I better get involved, it seems everyone else is.

My opinion is that the big deer are there, and if you put in the effort and time you may be rewarded. It sounds like all you people want is to be able to head out into your woods and see big bucks everywhere. That is called a hunting preserve or a game farm. I for one wouldn't pay a dime to hunt in one of those things. I can't stand to watch them rattle or grunt in multiple bucks on those preserves. That is not deer hunting.

So get out there and put in some time and find those big bucks because minnesota will never turn into a hunting preserve, just a great state for deer hunting.

[can it be luck?]

Well I tryed to practice QDM...for a while. The WI. regular gun hunt started this morning. The weatherman was calling for snow. At 8am the snow came and left 1" on the ground, great for hunting. The shots started to ring out at first light. I didn't see my first deer till 10am. 2 does runnung through the hardwoods at 125 yds. away. I had used my doe tags on the T-zone hunt, so I watched them pass. Several minutes later a volley of fire rang out from the deers heading direction. At 10:30 I had a deer "jump" out of a strip of a pine lined marshy area that runs through the hardwoods. The deer was 75 yds, away. I couldn't make out horns, as the deer was partly concealed by brush. I held my scope on the deer as it started to walk away. After turning it's head I could see it was a nice forkhorn. Thinking of this thread, I hesitated. Hesitation kills....But not when deer hunting!!! The deer ran off, a single shot was fired minutes later. I could kill myself! I was ready to come home! What's come over me, passing up a shot like that?? Only to have someone else shoot what could've been mine. At noon, I had a single deer comeing from the hardwoods heading for the pines. The way the deer "carried" himself, I knew it was a buck. It stopped at about 100 yds, and I drilled him in the lungs. The deer lept in the air, ran 15 yds, and started to swagger, then dropped to the ground. Well I guess my bad luck turned good because of waiting, I traded a fork for a 6 pointer. Can it be luck? Well time to eat!! Does anyone have a recipe for "horn soup".

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[This message has been edited by can it be luck? (edited 11-22-2003).]

[mistermom]

Nice buck, can it be luck(?). I found one just like that dead in the swamp today while pheasant hunting. Somebody didn't find their deer. Too bad. Hate to see that; but it happens.

mm

[Fisher Dave]

Nice deer. I'm sure it will be good eating to boot.

I'm glad luck worked out for you waiting. As I said in an earlier post .. me missing a trophy one day lead to a deer with 1/2 the rack the next .. I guess we never know whats coming. I was happy with my lesser(5 point)deer, nobody will change my mind on that.

Be happy they didnt incorperate PA laws like others are insinuating here ... That respectable animal would not have been legal game... I dont think you would have wanted to wait to see if the next deer was an 8 point... or if there was another deer at all... let alone a buck.

[Mark Christianson]

Fisher Dave,
If we had some minimum size rule, I don't think Can it be Luck? would be hungry. He did state he had filled his doe TAGS(plural) in the T zone hunt.
How many deer do you need?

I brought up the PA thing. It was just a thought of something to consider. Heck, I have no idea if its feasible. Bottom line, this thread has struck some great enthusiasm for both sides of the topic. I still think based on all the posts that this subject is a close split down the middle. I for sure have learned a lot based on other peoples views.
A minimum size will not work statewide. There are areas such as the NE that I agree it would be bad. Or at least not work to good.
Its obvious that our conversations have made some people think about bigger bucks. (ie - Can it be Luck? thought for a moment on that forkie) I am willing to bet there are a lot of people out there thinking that a buck passed is a buck shot by the next guy. Probably happens a lot, but there are a lot that make it for next year too.
I still think that the majority of hunters would walk out of the woods with a bigger grin if they had an 8 pointer with an 18" spread, versus a forkie. Especially when they have a deer camp to go back to, and brag all night long. BUT, I do agree that same hunter could kick himself in the butt going back to camp and telling the others he passed on a forkie and saw nothing else.
No simple answer, and I don't think the DNR should be a part of a decision. Too many variables and more regs.
In closing, I highly suggest people giving it some serious thought.
A buck and doe run by, shoot the doe. I have seen many people in this thread say they don't eat the antlers. Well, then don't shoot the one with 6 inch spikes.

[Steve Foss]

I thought I had something to say but changed my mind.

You guys have about covered it all, and this has been better reading than almost any thread I've waded through on FM.

Good job.

Let's hunt! One day to go.

[This message has been edited by stfcatfish (edited 11-22-2003).]

[can it be luck?]

Steve? I read your post briefly, earlier. I was going to say something, but now it's gone. I think everyone would like to have the same thing. Big bucks, and lots of them. Looking at other states's programs and trying to make them work here can never work. People are forced to take sides, to satisfy there needs or wants given the choices at hand. But with so many landowners, hunters, and values, not everyone will, or can agree. The DNR can't satisfy everyone, so the laws are what they are. If you're fortunate to own a large amount of land, then YOU become the keeper, to manage it properly. Then you'd now have sole access and control over the herd. In a sense, you become the DNR. Large tracts of land managed for QDM is mostly a private affair. You know who's hunting at any given time, and harvest your crop like a farmer. For example today, I had guys all around me on neighboring properties, I had no idea who or how many. I have 80 acres, but this is a small part of a deers homerange. Even if I wanted, it wouldn't work. So I take what I can and if I'm lucky maybe I'll get that "wallhanger". I've been lucky enough to get a few 10's, one 9, and some 8's, so I guess I'm happy. Sole control of land is like being your own DNR...PS: Steve, I'm not from luck, WI. I use that handle because everyone says I get lucky, hunting and fishing. So I says to them, Can it be luck?

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http://groups.msn.com/canitbeluck

[This message has been edited by can it be luck? (edited 11-22-2003).]

[Fisher Dave]

Big lake bass ...

I guess a persons need for venison would greatly depend on how much they and their families consume in a year. Many people throw plenty of meat away... many dont.

The deer I harvested earlier this year (around beginning of October) field dressed at 160 lbs ... All of the meat besides a small pack of sausage I still have in my freezer was gone a week ago.

My family relocated to the northern part of the state earlier in the year ... with the weak economy, we were very grateful for a freezer full of meat... I will do my best when I'm not working to try to harvest 2 more deer before the season is over (archery) and get the rest of the winter covered. My neighbors around here are not driving brand new SUV's and sporting $200,000 homes either.

I guess what I'm trying to say is ... for those of us who still hunt for food either for need, or desire of the game we hunt ... we should not be limited to taking large bucks for the sake of others that want to put a large rack on the wall. I am not saying that is all people want to do when pursuing a trophy .. but its obvious for many the *meat* does not come 1st, and for others, the meat must come 1st.

Even a law protecting smaller bucks will not assure more large bucks will be seen in the course of the season from the average hunter... If one does not want to depend on luck, they need to get out more than just a weekend to build tree stands and do some serious scouting on a regular basis. For individuals who want to spend the time in the field, the odds will greatly increase on taking a quality deer if they can hold off long enough.. that should be a matter of choice, not force.

The day I must shoot deer in the 8 point+ class, or not be able to keep a walleye under 7 pounds (basicly same thing) is the day I willingly will become a poacher.

I am not bashing anyone, or anyones opinion... I just strongly feel that this is one thing that should be left alone.

[Steve Foss]

Well, OK.

I favor QDM. I will never support trying to make it the law, nor would I support a minimum number of points for a legal buck. It's asking for trouble.

QDM is the best way I've heard of to maintain a quality buck population in GOOD deer habitat. It has its drawbacks, but so does my 1985 4X4 Chevy.

When I hunt, I hunt for the love of it and for the ability to put meat in my freezer. Got a nice buck in the freezer now, looking for the doe tomorrow. I shoot for meat, not horns, and could care less if I ever bag a 12-pointer scoring 180 or better, for example.

Give me an either-or or an antlerless permit every time. Don't tell me that, unless I see a buck of more than, say, 3 points, I can't feed my family.

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"Worry less, fish more."
Steve Foss
[email protected]

[Surface Tension]

Something to consider. Say southern Mn adopted Min rack. How many landowners do you think would give permission to shoot a "Trophy"? You could kiss hunting bucks goodbye on private land unless you pay to hunt. Guess you could always be the grunt and thin does out for the guy with a few acres. I see this as bad thing for MN hunters.

[traveler]

This has been good reading, it's pretty obvious that passing a regulation on this wouldn't have widespread support, although many of us like to chase big bucks. Heres a situation that bothers me; I know of 2 parties that own/control sizeable chunks of acerage, upwards of 160 in one case and more then that in the other. We're talking up north woods here, not vast fields, so it's plenty of land to have to themselves. In both cases, I talk to these guys after season and it's like "Well, this year we "harvested" (there's that word again that 18 inch 8 pointer I was telling you about last year". Or, "We're watching 3 10 pointers but they aren't quite shooters yet". Gimme a break! They might as well name these deer, they see em' often enough. Where's the "hunting"? Sure, the areas are unfenced, bucks come and go. One of these guys complained bitterly last year that the guys on the adjoining property shot one of "his" 8 pointers that he'd been watching for several years but hadn't "chosen" to shoot yet. Whatever. It just doesn't sound much like hunting to me. We hunt large tracts of public woods, same area for many years, and know the country well. But there's a certan (large??) amount of luck to our hunt. I guess I just can't see sitting out there just waiting for the same deer I've been watching for 2 or 3 years to get big enough to satisfy my ego. Maybe it's just sour grapes on my part, I don't know.

[can it be luck?]

ST, that is a very true statement. I for one never thought of the impact in those regards. Large bucks are a valuable commodity, bringing top dollar. Every landowner around will want to get involved with QDM (quick dollars made). Access is already tough enough for the average Joe, this will put an end to "knocking on doors" for permision. Land leaseing for outdoor activitys is on the rise. Why not make a little money with your land? Competition would turn deer hunting into a commercial affair. The higher the quality of your deer, the steeper the price....Question? Is there a place that has big bucks that doesn't charge BIG $BUCKS$?? I really can't think of one that doesn't cost you something.......traveler, I hear what you're saying! "grooming" deer untill they're ready to be picked. In WI. group hunting is allowed. I filled my tags already, but today I had a few guys over to "group hunt". I don't bow hunt, so I don't spend a lot of time viewing and getting to know the deer that inhabit my woods. Every buck that has ever presented itself to me got shot or shot at, if a shot was available. I posted earlier that I let a forkhorn pass on Saturday. After the deer left my stand, I heard shots. I figured the buck was taken. Today I seen only one deer, it was the buck from yesterday! The same buck appeared about 150 yards away, makeing a beeline to my stand. It stopped and was sniffing around the gut pile from Saturdays deer. It passed right under my stand, the whole time I was watching through my scope, crosshairs shifting from chest, neck, head, and other places as well. I did not shoot this buck. I gave him a gift and I wasn't about to take it back. I felt I would be betraying the deer or be in breach of a decision that I had made earlier. It may sound weird, but that's the way I felt. Now when next year comes rolling in, and little old forkhorn is sporting a really HUGE set of forkhorns , Deer Mr. Bucky and I will be reintroduced!! Hopefully he'll join me for dinner, as the guest of honor! As far as I see it....He owes me one.

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[This message has been edited by can it be luck? (edited 11-24-2003).]

[Coach Dog]

Hey Can it be Luck?,
Nice deer! Being that you passed up a small fork for the 6-pointer, what if you would have passed up the 6 and that big 10-pointer would have came by? j/k

[honker23]

ST I fully understand your point, because I've seen develop for the past 10 years. Hunting in SE MN used to be very enjoyable. Many old landowners that enjoyed hunters and would ocassionally buy a license and walk with you because he enjoyed the woods. We had 10 guys and hunted roughly 1000-1200 acres spred over 4 landowners. Now 3 have died, and the sons took over while the other one has changed his ways. They all want to develop the "monsters" in their back yards, and have not allowed others to hunt their land. They joke about it and call this group the big bucks club. We would hunt the doe season and they thought we took too many does and fawns off their property. So, the 3 sons hunt the 600 acres and have not shot a large buck since. To show you how stupid they are, they hunt the doe season and pass on the buck season during the rut??? Now we hunt all state land and take what we can. But the future is a little scary. I an see the writing on the wall regarding paying large amounts to hunt the "monsters".

[Havin' Fun]

I thought about this last night some on the drive home from bow hunting....after not seeing a single deer all weekend.

But I was out there working my butt off, in search of that giant buck that would be the trophy of a lifetime...something I think everyone hopes and dreams of. But what if I went and saw tons of big bucks? What if that was the norm? What if everyone was getting a big buck each year? How special would that giant buck be? How envious would I be of my fellow hunters? How envious would they be of me someday hopefully!!!???

I realized that I hunt for that trophy because it's a lot of work....and someday when all my hard work comes together to pay off.....I'm going to feel that rush of adrenaline. I'm going to know that I accomplished something very special. Would that be a big deal if all I had to do was sit out on a stand and pick and choose which bucks to shoot?

I believe QDM is a nice idea. I hate to see fork horn deer get shot at over a doe. Mostly because I spend years on stand NEVER seeing a buck. But I guess that's what keeps me trying. I guess that's why I love to bow hunt and shoot does...waiting for that trophy and doing what I can to help out the deer population while still enjoying the very best of what Minnesota has to offer....and some mighty fine eats to boot!

[This message has been edited by Hammer em' (edited 11-24-2003).]

[fivebucks]

I say to each their own. I shoot for meat but once the meat is in the freezer I'll be picky. The area we hunt by LOW doesn't have alot of deer so any deer is a good one. In 20+ years of hunting there our immediate party of 5 have shot only 2 deer that went on the wall. We party hunt so once a forkie is down we don't stop hunting so the argument of passing on a fork to get a "shooter" won't fly here. If we all waited for the big ones there wouldn't be much venison being eaten except by the wolves. This discussion will go on and on and on but we just have to agree to disagree. I like the rules the way they are and I don't think we have to worry about a min. rack law cause that would be a loss of revenue for the state in lost license fees. I know I would fight a min. rack law as best I could. Hmm super glue old points onto that spiker if it ever went that way might work.

[BLACKJACK]

Good post Hammer em!! I agree 100%!

[Canuck]

I have read all 7 pages of this post and really enjoyed them all but I have a couple of questions.

If one has to shoot the first deer they see because that is probably the only deer they will see all season, wouldn't you think maybe there shouldn't be a deer season in that area.

A couple of posts indicated that they let a deer go and to find out later that, "their deer" was shot by somebody else. How is that deer "their deer"?

Another post complained of 'road hunters'. Personally I have never seen road "hunters", please don't call those that drive the roads looking for a deer to shoot form the road as hunters, rather shooters even poachers.

NOBODY is guarenteed a deer when they buy a licence only the opportunity to be out in the field. Isn't the hunt over once U have shot the deer.

We live off of wild meat and do not purchase meat therefore I have to provide the meat therefore I purchase an archery, muzzle and rifle licence for deer as well as a moose tag.

I cannot and will not blame anybody for shooting a doe, spike or monster as long as they follow the fair chase rule and eat what they shoot. If some guys don't want to pass on spikes they have NO cause to complain on there not being any monsters. Hopefully all you can do is try and educate them.

Several years ago (1974 to 1977) we had harsh winters and the deer herd was cut drastictly, therefore they went to a bucks only for part of the season. I know we found several does shot (by poachers) and left in the bush. Thankfully enough hunters saw the light and our deer rebounded to be a healthy herd. There will always be those that complain on not seeing enough bucks but often they are the ones not out scouting preseason and only spending a couple of days in the bush and expeciting a buck to be behind every bush, (it just doesn't happen). I once read a story about how to best get your big buck, SPEND TIME IN THE BUSH.

[Ruttin' Buck]

I can't bite my lip any longer...someone has to have a lewd breather post, a little humor that flirts with the possible edit/delete....

Is it possible that after 7 pages & 98 posts that we've finally made the connection between big racks and the bush (see preceding post)? It was under our noses all along?! How obvious, us males (need I specify straight?) have known this since adolescence.

But despite this obvious fact, and I could be wrong, but it seems we can conclude from the plethora of posts that there are actually some guys out there that are okay with smaller, supple racks over huge racks? I guess to each his own, but for Pete's sake, some guys settle for no rack at all?....Inconcievable!

I gotta admit...I'm a rack man. Always will be. I think most guys would prefer to have a big rack waiting for them at home. The memories (not mam) attached to any big rack never seem to end.

Now, I prefer finding a rack in a natural setting. There's no way I'd pay to aquire my rack by laying down some money. There's no sport in that.

You show me a guy who supports a minimum rack size and I'll show you a guy with a decent mount.