Support a minimum rack size???

[Mark Christianson]

I am curious how many people out there would support a move towards a minimum buck size in MN. Something like what Pennsylvania is now doing. They have a regulation where parts of the state, in order to shoot a buck it must have 3 visible points(or something on that order).

Where we hunt, I have talked with people on a neighboring property and they have commented about the lack of bigger bucks, yet they shoot anything that moves.
This year for example, they had a small buck and doe go by one of their guys on 2 different occasions, and what did he do??? He shot the small buck in both cases(one fork horn and one 5 point). Yet he "whines" because there just doesnt seem to be any nice bucks.
Well, shoot the doe or don't shoot either. QDM(quality deer management) has theories that lowering the doe population(or equaling the buck to doe ratio) improves the overall health of the deer population and nicer buck sizes.

Are there many people out there that don't have some deep seeded desire to shoot a trophy buck at some point in their life?
I would support it personally.

[Iceman77]

I firmly believe in better buck to doe ratios. I have seen areas out of balance in the past with very few big bucks. As the buck to do ratios became closer to 1:1 the buck racks dramatically increased. As a side note this is also in an area with good genetics and some of the best food available. Nonetheless, when the ratios were out of balance it was tough to grow big bucks. To do this the DNR would need to more firmly quantify deer populations and buck to doe ratios in each area(roughly the size of one county). They would also need determine the success rates in each of these areas(already done). With this data then they could set the number of buck licenses and doe licenses that would be given out for that particular unit. Other states do this with a lottery system and it works very well and there are plenty of good sized deer to go around. Unfortunately this type of system works best in areas with higher success rates(80% plus) and becomes more difficult in areas with lower success rates. I really do feel that Minnesota needs to better control its doe population and limit the number of bucks being shot. It becomes difficult to control deer populations in areas with everyone being able to get a buck tag.

[mistermom]

Well I am hoping that QDM will work on my Dad's farm. I passed up two decent bucks this year (a 6 pointer and a not sure but big) and ended up taking nothing. Thats ok if next year or the year after I get a shot at a B&C buck. A really big buck with a nice rack is the only deer I haven't taken..... I'm still waiting for the 10 lb walleye too!

mm

[leechlake]

I'd say, especially short term, this should be handled yourself and with your neighboring hunters. At the very least, some of the hunters will go along with a QDM kind of program. Most people just want A deer and the state goes along with that. Talk to your adjacent landowners or just any hunter you know if you hunt public land and start it yourself. I know deer can have large ranges but this would be something we hunters could start on our own. When it works it will catch on, just like catch and release fishing yields bigger fish to catch and so people do it.

[Fisher Dave]

The current law in PA is the bucks must have 4 points on at least one side. PA also has entirely different hunting laws and seasons, and needless to say, far more deer.... Believe it or not in PA they give the kids the day off of school for the opening of Doe season (falls on monday)... and at the same time, you cant hunt anything on sundays with the exception of coyotes, and crows.

I am very against a large minimum rack size. I hunt for groceries for my family... as vague as it sounds, once were further into the season *if its brown, its down* comes into play. Dont get me wrong, I will shoot a trophy if given the opportunity .. but the 5 pointer I already harvested this year in the archery season tasted great.

Taking on the PA standards of 4 points on at least one side is like saying you cant keep a walleye until its 7 1/2 pounds.

No Thanks.

[fonz58]

Personally, I've tried to suggest a rack size limit with neighbors, but most of them seem to be against it. The best I've been able to do is to control what I do, and what my son and best friend do as we hunt the approximately 200 acres we have to ourselves. The real challenge is how to convince yourself to NOT shoot that 6pt, or even 8pt when you know as soon as it crosses the fenceline it's toast! I let a 6pt go about 8 yrs ago, the next year I let him go as an 8pt.....it's almost as if we became friends, as I had him within shooting range 6 times!!! OOOOOh, wait till next year. Well he became a nice 10pt, and was wounded in the field across the road from my property (eg. his sanctuary) I didn't hunt with gun that year, but the neighbors told me about it.....and the human tracks that went into my woods (past my no trespassing signs) showed me the evidence. Well, he was never retrieved. He gave me some nice memories......but in a classic move some road hunting idiots took shots well beyond their shotguns abilities, or their own abilities and disrespected this beautiful animal. I was fortunate that this buck lasted this long. It's this kind of thing that makes one tempted to shoot that 6 or 8 before someone else does! Our group rule is if you shoot less than an 8pt, it costs you $100 which goes towards the purchase of habitat improvement (usually seeds, like clover) It would be nice to NOT have our government make a rule like this, but I have seen now this has truely benifited the quality of the bucks in North Dakota. They don't have a size restriction there, but they do have a lottery to keep the buck doe ratio in line.

[wade22]

I guess I'm against the notion. Deer hunting in MN is way too over-regulated already.
Just my opinion. There are a lot of 4-8 pointers out there and the 8 pointer I shot this year is almost identically sized to one our party shot last year. I know the validity of quality deer management but as I stated, deer hunting in this state is one thing you need a translator to understand year-in and year-out. I've been hunting my dad's farm in MN for 13 years and every year I need to re-read the reg. book. All I want is a deer, not a foreign language course. Just my 2 pennies' worth.

[fivebucks]

I would have to be against a min. size rack. Where we hunt up by LOW in the forests sometimes you only have 1 or 2 opportunities at any deer. This year I did not take a deer cause I just did not have any clean shots. Last year I was passing up 2 1/2 year old bucks cause I had already shot a couple and I was wanting only a big one - but it was my choice and not the state's. I'ld say QDM can work only in selected areas of the state where the deer home range is limited and the best way is to get together with your neighbors if that is what you want to do. I would hate it to be the last day of the season and not have any venison for the freezer and be forced by the state rules to pass on a nice little spiker that will probably never amount to a decent rake anyhow. Just my views.

[Surface Tension]

If you to practice selective harvest on your own thats up to you.
However I'm totally against pushing "minimum size racks" on anyone.
What you get out of deer season may not be what the next guy is looking for.
I'd hate to see a guy come in to register a spike buck and have a someone give him crap about it. Thats not what deer hunting is about.
You can pass on the same six pointer half a dozen times but I'll tell ya he's never going to be a "trophy" and why should he be? Theres one key ingredient a deer needs to become old and thats smart.

[Gissert]

Wow, tough call, but personally I am not for it.

This year, we hunted the 4A season, which gives you two days to get your deer. You may only get one or two chances, and then your season is over. Sometimes the doe thing just does not happen, so you shoot the small buck or a fawn.

I'm not sure a point restriction would even work in my area. Many of the bucks first racks have six to eight points. Good eats and gene pool, perhaps. Heck, I shot one this year that had 11 points, but he was a small buck. My wife shot a six pointer, and these two bucks were within 10 pounds of each other. If QDM were to be practiced in my neck of the woods, a lot of 8 pointers would have to get a pass.

Next year I intend to get a muzzleloader and the all season license. I will be more inclined to let a young buck walk when I know I have another rifle season plus the muzzleloader time ahead of me.

[can it be luck?]

In a real hunting environment when time is a factor, distinguishing bucks from does can be tough. A running deer is hard enough to determine sex, now throw in the fact that horns need to be counted. That's a no-go. What happens if the hunter mistakes a shooter (3 points W. count) for a illegal forkhorn? Guys would be leaveing dead deer in the woods fearing fines. If the law is enforced with some leniance, others would claim they thought the deer was a shooter. IMO. Landowners and neighbors need to get together to determine if this is what they want for their land. It's a great idea if ALL agree, and will provide bigger/older deer. On the other hand, smaller bucks need to be weeded out of the herd at times to be a properly managed herd. Who will make these decisions? Surely not the DNR. This can only be done by people manageing smaller localized areas, not the entire state. IMO.

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[SCCO9803]

I would definitely be in favor of a minimum rack size. There would be some difficulty in objectively enforcing it. Many times a hunter would not know for sure if the deer met the minimum size prior to shooting it. It is my belief that in order to shoot quality bucks you must discipline yourself enough to pass on that border line eight pointer. It also helps when you have private land to hunt on. It is more difficult for those that hunt public land to pass up deer, for fear of never seeing them again. If people are concerned about getting meat they should consider shooting a doe. I would never tell anybody how, or what to harvest for a deer, but by thinning the doe population and increasing the buck ratio the antler size will also increase. Another reason for smaller antler size is the over population of deer. In many areas where deer are heavily populated too much stress is put on the heard and this can also affect antler size.
-Good discussion topic. I hadn't thought of a minimum antler size, good idea, but it would be hard to implement; especially with herd population numbers being through the roof.

[cashcrews]

I am against the "minimum rack size". If you wish to do QDM on a small-scale, that's fine. As others have already mentioned on this post, we hunt for different reasons, and trophy hunting isn't something I'm even remotely interested in. I shoot deer for the venison...period. If it happens to be a nice buck, that's cool.

My first deer ever was a 13-pointer, so I guess it'll be hard for me to ever beat that anyway.

The thing that always gets to me about so many (not all) people who push the QDM agenda, is that they will be the same people to invoke "if it's brown, it's down" after the first weekend of season. I propose a tag system that would make them "put their money where their mouth is". Basically, if you opt for the "QDM Tag", you MUST shoot a deer that has "X-Points" in order to legally register it.

Cashcrews

[Mark Christianson]

Hey Can it be Luck,
You're a cheesehead(Wisconsinite), aren't you?
Strike that post from the record. This is a MN question.

All great points guys. I think Gissert hit one thing on the head with me personally. With the All-Season license available these days, I have found it quite easy to pass on deer. Now that the All-Season is available, I don't feel "pressured" into making a decision if I should take one or not. I have the muzzleloader season coming up too.
Points were made that we need to work it out with adjacent landowners, but that is futile. I talked a guy from one side Sat morning after I gut out my buck, and I told them what we are doing on our property with letting anything less than 8 pts go to grow. I just got a glassy look from the guy. Well, he is the one that shot the 2 small bucks, and I talked to him on Sunday after he shot one of them, and thats when he commented about the lack of nice ones. They are all small he said. If only he could get the left half of his brain talking to the right half, he would answer his own question.(If you shoot em small, how do they get big?)
A couple other adjacent landowners also have no desire, so all we can do is hope what we pass up, somehow finds a way to make it another year. If the freezer isn't filled with venison, I can always split cow with someone.
And the cow is probably a lot cheaper!

[can it be luck?]

Soooo many variables when hunting to cover them all. Running was an example. Brush partialy covering a deers head could've been used...for example. My point is that the window of opportunity is usually small when deer hunting. Recognizing the deer as a buck takes enough time the way it is. Now add the time it takes to count horns on a deer that maybe running or partialy concealed (examples). When that deer provides a shot, you darn sure dont want to be sitting there saying 1, 2 3, horns, oops, too late! Giant, I've shot several deer on the run successfuly. I feel confident when I squeeze the trigger, otherwise I dont shoot. Birds I let fly, to give them a "sporting chance" BiglakeBass, it is football season. What's up with the Vikes?

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[Giant_Jackpot]

Last time I looked the Vikes were leading the division!

[can it be luck?]

OUCH!

[EXTREME]

Wobbler...I had a "spike" buck in our feeder one year and the next he was a fabulous looking 10 pointer....definately NOT genetically inferior...Does'nt happen often but it does happen. As far as the question on hand, I practice QDM on the tract that I hunt. Nothing under 8 pts and 2 1/2 yrs old is harvested. We seem to shoot nice bucks every year (and does). But most of these guys have a point. A trophy is definately in the eye of the beholder. When my son is old enough to hunt this tract I am on, I am NOT going to make him wait for a 8 pointer. It just would'nt seem right!!

[Mark Christianson]

Great point on the kid scenario Extreme.

There was a post earlier about the complexity of the licenses today, and adding more would not be good. I agree with that statement too.

Tough spot. The only way around the "kid" scenario would be to have the "Points system" to exclude kids 16 and under or something. But, just another regulation.

Hmmmm

[Coach Dog]

This is a great topic. I have never really thought seriously about this topic, but now that I have been exposed, it makes sense to pass up the younger bucks. I realize this isn't going to fly with everyone and I respect that. I'm not saying that if a little 6-pointer walks up to me on opening morning that I won't blast it, but if it is w/ a nice doe, I now think I will take the doe. I hunt private land in SE MN, and just about all the land around me is private. There are a lot of big bucks around and if people in my party and the neighbors practice this, hopefully there will be some monsters in the years to come.

[Wobbler]

Extreme,
I understand Spike bucks can get bigger racks but research shows that they are inferior and will have smaller racks than forks or 6 pointers in the same year class. Now shooting a 1 and 1/2 year old deer with a 6 point rack versus shooting a 1 and 1/2 year old deer with spikes is a big deal. I want the 6 pointer to live and get the spiker out so in case one of those bucks gets lucky I want it to be the 6 pointer not the spike!

[can it be luck?]

Bucks, like does need to be harvested in order to grow big bucks. It's hard to "generalize" the whole state with QDM. It needs to be done on a more personalized level.

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[Gissert]

Biglakeba$$-

Have you checked the price of beef lately? Holy cripes, it is almost as expensive as venison! LOL.

[This message has been edited by Gissert (edited 11-18-2003).]

[Jeremy Donabauer]

In a perfect state such as MN genetics, food but no age..for growing trophy bucks the first thing to do is get the population in balance. Here in central MN there aren;t the numbers of deer there should be and they may never be as good as they once were until the dnr (**** near retarded) gets their act together. Too many doe tags given out is the first problem. In the early 90's everyone waited for the mail to come and see if they got a doe tag. Now you can just keep shooting the population down to nothing so the dnr can silver line their pockets with doe tag monies. If MN had a good managment plan like iowa i.e. no gun hunting during the heart of the rut they could charge out of state hunters $300 for a tag as iowa does. When looking back in the BC record books you will see that MN USED to rank the highest on entries per year now we are so far behind its really a joke. We may not need a branched antler restriction but without the help of the dnr this state will never produce the amount of high quality deer that we really could. I feel bad traveling 5 hours every weekend knowing with a good management plan this state could be the best in the union for growing BC bucks. Anyone who disagrees with this is having the wool pulled over their eyes by the dnr and allowing them to take advantage of one of the best resources MN has.

[Jeremy Donabauer]

Also party hunting must be ceased. ND, SD, MT, WY, KS, IA, IL, WI? NOT ALLOWED.