Support a minimum rack size???

[Wobbler]

Dunns,
Do you hunt at a deer camp? I take it you don't because deer camp is one of the best experiences a person can have. I belong to a hunting shack and party hunting has always been fun and a way for those to keep on hunting even after they shoot a deer. I am sorry that other states don't do this but it would be very boring to take a week off like I do and shoot a big buck the first day and be done for 8 days while others in my shack never see deer and want me to get one for them. It is a rule at our shack that once you shoot a buck it can only be a good buck!

Do you hunt private or public land? Many places people shoot whatever they see and that is not going to stop on public land. Some hunters want trophys, some want to enjoy the experience, and some want meat. Private land gives you the best chance of managing your own deer herd to shoot BC bucks. If you hunt public land like I do with other hunters around then your out of luck and go to Iowa or any of those other states where they have those rules. There are monsters in our state it just takes some work to find them.

In some states like WI and Iowa have had many deer and car colllisions because there are so many deer and nobody to shoot because Iowa people have to shoot big bucks and in Wisconsin they have so many deer they have had some deer with CWD because they restricted too much in the mid to late 80's. We have our own share of collisions in this state but it could be much worse if we put restrictions on how big a buck we can shoot.

What about a kid's first hunt? A nice 6 pointer walks by and he has to pass it up because it is does not have 4 antlers on a side. Boy that would have made me want to sit in a deer stand as a 12 year old letting a "trophy" buck like that go and will really turn on my young son when he can only shoot certain deer. No wonder nobody lives in those high human population states you talk about. We almost have more deer hunters than they have people in all of those states with those antler restrictions. It won't work in this state!

Here is another thought. Some parts of the state have real problems with too many deer. Maybe they should have people shoot a doe first then a buck or put in for a buck license every year through a lottery.

Our dnr has had problems everyone knows that. However, it is easy to point fingers and blame them when it is hunters who shoot 4 or 5 deer because the state allows them too and shoots all the small bucks. It is each individual hunter who makes a choice and is responsible for their actions not the dnr.

[Ruttin' Buck]

I just brought the QDM topic up at the cabin last weekend. Our party is 20; approximately half in their 50's, the other half in the 20's. I'm in the younger of the generations and I must say this idea was not well accepted by the older guys.

The first thing to come out of one of the guys was, 'it won't work where we hunt on all this public land where everything is shot'. I responded first with, 'not with that attitude' and secondly with 'not every deer you pass on will get shot up by Captain Blasts Everthing hunting 1/4 mile from you'.

The discussion then turned to the quality of bucks in our area. I've been hunting rifle in this area of northern MN for 18 seasons now. I remember my early years when basket 8's where in the top 5 ever taken in our group....and the old men (not so old then) where no slouches at deer hunting!

I also remember a few terrible winters and the years afterward when you'd walk in the snow just hoping to see a track. However, now we're shooting big 8's (16-19" spreads) 9's, 10's, consistently!

Then, we thought back a little to what change??? Ahhh! The bucks only seasons! We came up with the following synopsis. During the bucks only seasons, all those little buttons running around out there didn't get shot at. Also, it was likely many of the little spikers and small forks couldn't be ID'd enough to shoot. But don't you think that they probably got the sh*$ scared out of them a few times during those seasons?! Heck yeah they did! It doesn't take too many 'lessons' for a deer to understand pressure and how to avoid it.

HENCE...our consensus was that the bucks only season actually worked as a QBM (quality buck mgmt.) program. In addition, during this season we shot many really nice big bucks.....why? I'll tell you why. Because every guy in our party now had to pass that first little antlerless thing that came prancing out in front of them first light opening morning....BUT what followed??? Those big bucks "that you never see"!!!! Point is, you won't see the big ones if you blast the little one's in the lead.

Sorry so long...I want to know if anyone else who has hunted up north for at least 15 or so years has this opinion?

I'd be all for bucks only again. Shoot any size you want...many will still be spared. However, 16 and under get either sex for sure! I don't have kids but will never forget those days. The guys who want their trophys (me) will get them; the guys who want venny, you'll have that too.

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"Aim small...miss small"

[Jeremy Donabauer]

Wobbler some good points some not so good. Deer camp for me now takes place in ND bowhunting camp because I feel I have a greater chance of shooting a "shooter". Party hunting should be abolished keeping the herd in good balance should be addressed first, if you don't want to be done than don't shoot simple as that. In no way did I propose branched antler res. For the youths I'm all for any deer tags for them but after they get their first deer maybe they should then become part of the general deer population. You said it was the hunters fault who legally tags 4 or 5 deer for themselves? If those tags weren't available there would be no problem. Worrying about deer car collisions now that is a stretch. You say there are monsters in our state...you're right but the numbers are not there unless you have a very large piece of property that has been correctly managed for that purpose. When looking at camp ripley everyone has to agree that that is the true potential of MN.

[Surface Tension]

I hunt up north and your seeing nicer rakes because we've had easy winters. They get little nutrition off winter browse.
Also deer coming off a hard winter are stressed and that effects antler growth.
On a hard or even normal winter the fawns and dominant breding bucks are the first to die. Why bucks? because they've ran all their fat off during the rut. That buck has done what other bucks before him have done and thats pass his superior traits on to next springs fawns. Its for the good of the herd that he succumbs this winter. Next year there'll be an other buck taking his place, this is how nature controls inbreeding.

[tjhunter]

I get tired of people blaming the DNR. We are the ones hunting out there - we are the ones with the money and the voice.

Dunns,

I disagree with you. You say that the DNR is lining their pockets - for what, a big Christmas party? They are not a business - they are government entity. The wool is not being pulled over my eyes. Look at the numbers:
• In 1972, when the deer season was reopened in Minnesota, 258,000 hunters were in the field. No antlerless permits were issued.

• Ten years later, in 1982, 369,000 Minnesota firearms hunters were in the field, with nearly 90,000 antlerless permits issued.

• Twenty years later, in 1992, 457,000 licenses were sold, with 322,000 antlerless permits issued.

• And last year, 30 years after the antlerless permit system was begun in Minnesota (and at a time when chronic wasting disease discouraged some hunters from going afield), 440,000 firearms licenses were sold, with 364,000 antlerless permits made available.

Through all of this, the Minnesota whitetail herd has continued to grow, and now approaches an all-time record size of perhaps more than 1.1 million animals.

The reason MN has slipped in producing BC bucks is because the buck to doe ratio is out of proportion. The only way to get that back is to reduce the number of does. This will also protect the herd from overpopulation. If the population isn't controlled, we will see some tragic consequences.

tjhunter

[Guest]

I agree that QDM does work. And, if you have property to manage, with a group agreement, go for it.

However, don't get the dnr to dictate what I can shoot for antler size. That is already done via antler or antlerless deer.

Luck is right.......Sometimes that buck looks bigger than what it is and sometimes your surprised you just shot a buck, because at the angle, you didn't see horns.

I too, also shoot at running deer (confidently) and you don't have time to judge or count points.

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Let 'em go so they can grow!!!

[can it be luck2]

Wi. allows group hunting, it's a big part of the whole hunting experience. When a deer/gun license is issued, it also comes with a T-zone tag. The T-zone tag is free. The tag allows hunters to shoot does dureing an early, late, and regular antlered deer season, but only in the designated T-zones. The regular gun tag allows only bucks with a 3" minimum antler length. There are bonus doe tags available, as well as "earn a buck". I dont think there is a limit on how many doe tags you wish to purchase at $12 bucks a piece. For a few bucks you can shoot a lot of doe for your buck.

[This message has been edited by can it be luck2 (edited 11-18-2003).]

[bigg edd]

TJhunter is right. If you want bigger bucks you need to have a better raito of bucks to does, especially in areas with a very high deer population. Where I hunt in 411 during muzzleloader season it is nothing have 15 to 25 does and fawns come buy your stand in a day. For the last two years we have shot noting but doe and we don't have a problem with it. Yes we do see bucks but most of them are 6 point racks and smaller. Maybe the big boys are tired out from the rut and moving after dark more and thats why we don't see them. zone 4 a and b are also short seasons and a lot of the guys who rifle hunt around us want bucks only and shoot very few doe.
As for the min. rack size, I would be afraid there would be a lot of rotting spikes in the woods.
Washington State has a 3 point min.in some areas but they also have a much smaller deer population that we do.

[can it be luck2]

Washington is neat. I lived in Tacoma for a few years. You could hunt Blacktail deer in thick, damp, Pacific rain forest in the morning, then hop to the other side of the mountains and hunt Muleys in a semi-arid desert climate in the afternoon. Washington state has many opportunitys for the sportsman. Sorry for being off topic, I just wanted to throw that in.

[Surface Tension]

We do have a minimum rack size now.
Its 3"

[Jeremy Donabauer]

I wish more people would back me on this but thats the way it is. I know you're out there speak up. As for consistenly harvesting mature bucks in MN I'll have to wait for the next generation to figure out what we really have. Two years ago the dnr did a study asking what percentage of MN's favor QDM and the number 49% favor and 51% don't so hopefully the future will bring back the days of monster bucks in the best buck factory in the U.S.

[JIGSTER]

All I have to say is the area I hunt, we have to get rid of the road hunters and we' ll be better off.Does,fawns,bucks,tags,who the hell needs a tag!!!!If you're gonna hunt like that you're a poacher!Just venting,Had a few beers Good huntin' Jigster

[mistermom]

Hey Duns!
Possibly people got really turned off when you decided to call other people retarded. I know I did!

mm

[This message has been edited by mistermom (edited 11-18-2003).]

[can it be luck2]

MM (AKA Russell Upsum Grubb ), I see you must've got hooked up again. Good to see your back! I'm borrowing my girlfriends puter and was going to sign her up with that moniker. I always liked that one!

[can it be luck?]

Are deer different in Mn. ??? What's the diff? This is a MN. question? I guess I dont understand your point? Can and would you please explain that? I'm very curious to know what you mean by that.

[This message has been edited by can it be luck? (edited 11-18-2003).]

[Giant_Jackpot]

Can it be luck?,

I am not a deer hunter but am not anti-hunting. I was curious about your post when you said it is hard to tell what type of deer or how many points it is when it is running. Do you mean to tell me that you shoot the deer while they are running? Shouldn’t a person wait until the deer is standing still so you can have a clean shot and also see what you are shooting at?

Thanks.

[Mark Christianson]

Notice the smiley face Can it be Luck?
Nothing intended. Just a friendly jab at a Cheesehead.
(Its football season)
Sorry for the confusion.

Now back to the topic at hand.

[Wobbler]

I think we should leave it the way it is. A "Trophy" to one person might not be on to the next person. I hunt where you are lucky to see a deer. This season by Brimson (Zone 1) we shot 4 bucks and went 4 for 4 for the first time ever. Hunting the "Big Woods" is different then hunting farms and fields like most people do in the western and southern part of the state. There have been years past where I might not have even seen a deer. This year I shot an 8 pointer and a "Spiker". Is my big buck population going to get hurt? Not by shooting that spiker which means poor genetics or shooting a 3 and 1/2 year old 8 pointer. We still did not even see the Monster we were looking for and spotted.

[pj4]

this is all fine and dandy,qdm, but dnr will not have any of this here now. too many deer and dnr is moving to self funded, they need people buying lic. and the insurance companies are lobbing for dnr to reduce deer poupulation, too manys cars getting hit.my thinking is ,doe only or more restricted buck hunting will hurt lic. sales.im seeing 240 lbs buks and many 10s and 12 point bucks this year killed in my area.yet, not like it was 15 years ago, course there are double the hunters now.its like fishing some lakes, lots of little ones or few big ones.

[mistermom]

I actually never left. Qwest didn't shut me down when I asked them to. I couldn't bear to ask them again. But thanks; I like being here. And I and my 8 year old developmentally disabled son would like people to not call other people retarded (even the DNR). Thanks!

mm

[Wobbler]

Dunns,
Where I hunt over the last 10 years we have shot some really nice bucks. Our group waited for the big "180 class buck" we saw all fall but was never spotted by us. This year again we shot some really nice bucks but not the BC bucks you mention (2 bucks maybe in the 140's). We had it so bad for years where I hunt even the 16 and under could not shoot a doe until 2 years ago. Our popultation in the last 2 years has skyrocketed. I know next year there will be deer running around all over where I hunt unless of course of a hard winter or the wolves get them all.
The car and deer collisions point might be a stretch but it could happen here if we don't start shooting does and bring the population to a balance.

[This message has been edited by Wobbler (edited 11-19-2003).]

[Labby]

I would totally support if it ever happened. Will it? I doubt it. We have tried it around the area I live but it gets too much negative support. I watched a group push out a woods earlier this year. 6 does come out with a little buck. Guess what they do? Smoke the little guy. Shoot the does! I will not shoot a buck unless it is going on the wall. Harvest a doe or 2 or 3 What most of the farmers want is less deer. Help them out by taking out the does. The westren standard is about the same as what they are doing in PA. I dont agree with those who say they are hunting for the freeezer. If that is the case why not shoot a doe they are everwhere all across the state. This has been a heated topic for me for years. Sorry to repeat what others have said but I think it is time for the DNR to grow a set and make this happen. They only care about the amount of deer killed.
Lab

[Mark Christianson]

Labby
You hit the nail on the head with my thoughts.
You get does and bucks(small ones for the sake of argument) moving by, and the bucks get whacked.
If ya want the freezer filled that bad, take a doe. They are just as tasty as a spike buck. You help the population control objective, and you are helping balance the buck/doe ratio all at the same time.
Unfortuneately, antlers are a big magnet for the sights and scopes so often.

[EXTREME]

Just for the sake of conversation; In Montana they have a drawing for BUCKS not does. And do you want to see big bucks...just go by the Glasgow area one time. The bucks there are huge...and amazingly there is a pretty close 1:1 buck/doe ratio. I am not saying that I want to wait for a buck tag, but it is a proven method for growing big bucks. The only difference that I can see, is that Minnesota has way more hunters than Montana. But I believe there are way less Whitetails there too. Anyway I thought I would stir the pot with that one!!

[can it be luck2]

Montana vs. Minnesota is like compareing apples to oranges. Meat hunters will tell you that even a small buck is usually bigger than a big doe, bodywise.