Bad Concrete Pour

[jjohnson5150]

$8100 includes the driveway, which looks great for what it's worth.

[jjohnson5150]

[Tom7227]

The lien laws are pretty strict about notice times. I can't remember what all they are but in my experience most contractors don't give the notice required and so the liens they file are not valid. Trouble with that is you have to go through a lot of hugga mugga to get the lien voided if the contractor files it.

[Sandmannd]

I have to say parts of it look great. However, my untrained eye can pick out the patchwork. I'm assuming you didn't pay all that money for that. Document, document and then document some more and get ready for a fight from him.

[MNice]

is the top poured right to the siding?? Hopefully its an optical illusion.

[jjohnson5150]

It's right up to the bottom of the siding. This is one of my bullet point issues for the project.

[minneman]

The lien laws are pretty strict about notice times. I can't remember what all they are but in my experience most contractors don't give the notice required and so the liens they file are not valid. Trouble with that is you have to go through a lot of hugga mugga to get the lien voided if the contractor files it.

A "Lien Notice" Has to be presented with the contract before the job starts.

[SpitnArgueDuckClub*]

What a jerk, your wife should have turned the hose on him or called the cops when he wouldn't stop working. Who knows for sure but the guy probably wanted to "fix it" as best he could so the pictures you took prior don't match what is there now should you take him to court. Keep us updated on the court process, sadly it will probably take months upon months for anything to be done about this in court.

[RebelSS]

Hopefully it won't take this long if you file in conciliation court. Just have plenty of pics, times, dates, and good documentation. Remember that any verbal implications are considered "hearsay" and are not admissible as actual evidence. Get written statements from other concrete contractors as far as what needs to be done, and if possible, have them appear as a witness, which you are allowed. Mediation with the lousy goof will be initiated first; if a settlemnt can't be reached at that point, then you as the plaintiff and he as the respondent will present your case before a judge/acting attorney for a judge. Minnesota law currently allows $7,000 claims to be processed, soon to be raised to $15,000. Neither side is allowed to have an attorney present, unless under extenuating circumstances, and you must ask the court for previous approval/permission to have one present, which is normally not done. You may ask to recover all damages including incidental monetary values. I had a contractor screw up my attic ventilation/insulation, leading to damage to my new roof. This was a large company, and had their reps from another state come in, that actually declared before the judge "He isn't getting a cent from us". I sued for new insulation, removal of all of their mess, and my time/effort. I had my roofer and another insulation company testify for me, along with pics and documentation. In short,the judge decided right there..that day. I creamed 'em. I was awarded all damages and incidental monies by the judge. They were stunned. It can be done; had to do it another time, won again. Don't be afraid to go for it. Good luck to you!

[Down Deep]

If it were me I would let the air clear for a few days and try again to work something out. Then go to plan B.

[Tom7227]

Conciliation court can often lead to a stone wall. If you get a judgement in your favor you have to do a lot to try and collect. Getting a write of execution, knowing where there is some money and having the sheriff execute the writ is expensive and frustrating. I used to do this for a living and many times there was a bank account but only a few dollars in it.

In your favor however is the likelihood that the contractor has a performance bond. I did have a personal success collecting from the bonding company on a bad roofing job, but I do have a lot more knowledge of how it works than the average homeowner.

If you do have to go to court learn as much as you can about how the collection system works. Otherwise you can end up with some paper and a lot of hours and not much relief.

[delcecchi]

If it were me I would let the air clear for a few days and try again to work something out. Then go to plan B.

I am sort of puzzled. What does a job like replacing these stairs cost? Why would a guy with a real business make such a big deal about fixing a problem for a dissatisfied customer? It makes me wonder about how well his business is really doing. Or maybe it is just an emotional thing.

[reddog]

Its unusual for a pour with so much "mass" to dry out too quickly. Possible, yes. Its possible when they poured, that the did not have enough concrete ordered initially, and had to order a second batch to finish. If there was indeed a second batch, its also possible that it came from a truck that had hot concrete in it already and that set up too quickly as the topping.

Structural. Umm Yea, sure it is..

The problem with steps, is they are very, very labor intensive. If this was a slab, it probably wouldve been torn out and redone already. Hes not worried about the cost of the concrete probably, its the tear out and repour labor thats causing him to balk. With that said, I think its not a good job..

When you talk to your lawyer, ask him if you use the steps, if that is in any way shape or form of an acceptance on your part. Common sense says no, but common sense aint too common any more. Everyones looking for a loophole.

[Surface Tension]

I'm guessing the eye of the camera is the reason for profile curvature of the steps?

I'm seeing voids and they happen even with tapping and vibration. Not sure what the process was and time evolved after the forms were taken off and the stamping but the bug holes could have been taken care of then.

It could also be that while stamping there was some movement at the outside corners and problem with release.

I wasn't there but things can get away on you and its tic toc, even for the best finisher.

There is a difference between a surface patch and holes filled in. You have what looks to me as the later and in this case the better of the two. Not sure why those areas weren't died but could be because he wasn't allowed the time. That would be something he might bring up in court.

You yourself said the stairs a structurally sound.

Assuming the treads aren't pitched and it is an illusion from the camera eye and all 3 rise are the same.

If I got it right your main concern is the filled in holes?

I have to say that your comment about the stairs being sound and then go on to being held together with glue and sealer shows your frustration but its out there a bit.

The esthetic valve of the stamping is in the eye of the beholder.

What you need is an opinion from an expert at to whether the patch is likely to pop.

You do know that if you were perfectly happy with the end result you would be cleaning, patching, and resealing when necessary?

I'd agree with Del, the guy already knows your not happy. Give it some time for you both to cool down, meanwhile get a second opinion and then hopefully you can get something worked out because this might not be a slam dunk in court.

[jjohnson5150]

I'm guessing the eye of the camera is the reason for profile curvature of the steps?

I'm seeing voids and they happen even with tapping and vibration. Not sure what the process was and time evolved after the forms were taken off and the stamping but the bug holes could have been taken care of then.

It could also be that while stamping there was some movement at the outside corners and problem with release.

I wasn't there but things can get away on you and its tic toc, even for the best finisher.

There is a difference between a surface patch and holes filled in. You have what looks to me as the later and in this case the better of the two. Not sure why those areas weren't died but could be because he wasn't allowed the time. That would be something he might bring up in court.

You yourself said the stairs a structurally sound.

Assuming the treads aren't pitched and it is an illusion from the camera eye and all 3 rise are the same.

If I got it right your main concern is the filled in holes?

I have to say that your comment about the stairs being sound and then go on to being held together with glue and sealer shows your frustration but its out there a bit.

The esthetic valve of the stamping is in the eye of the beholder.

What you need is an opinion from an expert at to whether the patch is likely to pop.

You do know that if you were perfectly happy with the end result you would be cleaning, patching, and resealing when necessary?

I'd agree with Del, the guy already knows your not happy. Give it some time for you both to cool down, meanwhile get a second opinion and then hopefully you can get something worked out because this might not be a slam dunk in court.

Thanks for this opinion. I did not figure I would have to do a thing besides sealer after getting the stamped sidewalk & steps. This is why we went this route. We are in cool down mode and taking some of the earlier advice. He knows we are not happy. Our biggest concern is that these steps will pop & crack up at an early age. He was on a job the neighbors were doing at the same time with the same concrete from the same truck. Our job was done by his "step guy", which we didn't know was going to be working without the contractors supervision.

I really appreciate the good info from both perspectives everyone has contributed in this thread. Thanks a ton. It's been very helpful.

[delcecchi]

I was just trying to come up with an explanation as to why no agreement yet. Comes down to

a. Customer too picky and unreasonable (nothing implied about this particular instance).

or

b. Contractor's business is under stress due to long bad winter, too many rainy days, housing crisis, trouble at home, whatever, and he can't afford the expense of re-doing the job. Maybe under bid the job some too.

or

c. He is overcommitted and behind on stuff he is signed up to do, (see b.) for various reasons.

or

d. He is a greedy guy who doesn't realize the damage to his business that can happen due to an unhappy customer (problem in metro since they figure there are plenty of customers) in this day and age.

I wonder which one it is?

[jjohnson5150]

After 30 days, we are already seeing significant crack lines. The sidewalk slab has two big ones meeting in the middle. We took the last month off to let the situation cool, but concern is growing that this is not going to last through the first winter. Do any of you concrete experts know if this cracking is normal and if there should have been a relief cut done.The sidewalk is 9ft 6in x 10ft 6in. The cracking that has developed over the past 3 weeks seems to be getting worse as the days go on and it's happening on the steps now too. All of this is in addition to the issues we had at pour that were attempted to be masked. I have not brought the recent cracking to the contractors attn since he will only want to mask the cracks. The situation appears heading for court.

[jjohnson5150]

Any area with a run of darker brown is new crack. After posting the pix I noticed it's not as obvious as it is in person or with higher res pix.

[jjohnson5150]

Good news for anyone who was following. We met with the contractor yesterday after writing a detailed letter regarding the pour issues and the developing issues requesting action within 10 days.

They are arranging to have an engineer from the concrete company come out to look at the cracking that goes beyond the tooled joints on the driveway to see if the concrete we got for the driveway was bad or if it was the finishing. As far as the steps / walkway goes, he is now backing them up and will be replacing come spring. I've requested all of this in writing, which I'm told will be coming by Sat.

We are back on standby mode. Part of me is nervous about the offer to replace the steps / walkway in the spring due to the amount of time in between. The other part of me understands that it might be a good idea to see what it does over the winter.

[SkunkedAgain]

Lots of us have been following. Definitely get it in writing. I wouldn't be shy of letting things settle over the winter and reassessing, but make sure that the method of assessment and criteria for replacement are spelled out this fall. Good luck

[BoxMN]

Yep, good to hear things are going in the right direction.

[Down Deep]

Seems to me that an engineering inspection is a bit overkill for a residential concrete pour that is not part of a structure. I guess if the people who furnished the concrete want to look at it I'd let them do it. My view is no matter what the engineer determines is wrong your contractor is still responsible for replacing the flawed work. Getting it in writing is a good idea, but you are right to be concerned about the time between now and the repair.

[jjohnson5150]

I agree. We are letting him run with this a bit since it's a somewhat fair compromise as long as we get it all documented. He said we would get it all mapped out by tomorrow. I have everything prepared to take this to the next level so the ball is in his hands to get us what we requested. The change in his attitude on this is still a bit of a mystery. Perhaps he realized how serious we were after getting the email or the cool down period was a slam dunk. I still would not refer this outfit to anyone, but at least he's now working with us.

[jjohnson5150]

This is one of the bad spots that has emerged along the tooled joints on the driveway.

[birdswacker]

More than likely the concrete supplier will pick up the tab on the concrete one not the labor.