Is archery now overwhelming?

[Random guy]

I was stuck in a waiting room yesterday and the only magazine I found without remodeling projects for your husband or who is sneaking around with who in Hollywood was an issue of Bowhunter. I picked it up and started looking through it and to be honest I was confused. I am traditional shooter using stick, string and looking down my arrow for yardage and aiming by instinct (fancy word for hours of practice). As I paged through the magazine I couldn’t believe the products, innovations and design wars taking place. Bows with completely horizontal limbs, risers that look like something NASA uses to hold together the shuttle then the pages of sights, stabilizers and arrows for speed and mechanical blades all made to compensate for the bow being out of tune. It was insane.

Now don’t get me wrong and think I am some trad shooter wearing a leather fringe jacket and running around in moccasins; for a solid decade I shot compound. In fact my last set of wheels was a Mathews Q2 and it had to be tuned through paper on a regular basis. There were a few sights options and few mechanical blades on the market that had great advertising but poor results. I just got tired of spending more time in the tuning shop and not being able to snap shoot so I went back to stick and string and from the looks of it I may have had to anyway. Now it is a whirlwind of products, gear, feet per second numbers that we used to dream of and to be honest some of the sights I wouldn’t know which way is up or out.

What I was wonder is how tough is it for a guy walking into compound bows to get set up? Does it take a team of pros to help get a bow that fits and tune it so arrows are not going bonkers at 330 fps? What is the price tag once set up with all the latest and greatest; arrows, releases, sights, blades etc etc? Most of all I am curious just what ranges are the current compound archers pushing out to? The fps numbers must have those carbon arrows flying about as flat as a small caliber rifle. Is it now one pin form 20-40?

I'm glad I have a simple set up, if my arrows start getting wild all I need to do is straighten the inside of my head out. From the looks of it soon compounds will have diagnostics plug for when they start flying wild. There are times I think "with a compound I could take that shot" but after looking through that magazine I actaully felt intimadated by it all and I couldn't imigine what somebody that has never held a bow before must feel like.

[Meat-Run]

Johnny P,

I'll try to answer your question as I hope Sticknstring will chime in as well with some other great supporters of this forum. The "wheel" archery that you speak of has gone crazy, like exploded in the new era of sporting for most and it's been great because it's got support from programs like "archery in school" and alike that help target young archers/hunters...I call it a "feeder program". This in turn has given the archery industry a huge boost of interest and the manufactures have responded with great products that shoot accuratly compared to bows not more then 5 years ago. The price tag has gotten a little out of hand but I feel you can pick right up with a slightly used bow rigid with everything for less then $600, that includes arrows, sights, rest, quiver, bow case etc.

I currently shoot a 2004 bowtech that's only been into the shop once since then and never have to mess around with sights and rests, it's been bullet proof...no messing around kind of bow. Most bows now once there set up can be good to go for many years and if you shoot often you'll notice if something is bumped out of wack but nothing you probably couldn't do yourself. I suggest you pick up a "wheeled" bow again you'll be surprised how accureate and fun they are!

mr

[Scoot]

I totally agree with Meat-Run. Things have changed a lot in the past ten years in the archery world. That being said, in what area of life have things not changed a lot in the past ten years? Anything that's based in engineering and/or technology has seen a ton of changes in the last decade. Building efficient and effective products is hugely impacted by advances we've seen in the past decade.

If you look at bicycles, worked on new cars, worked on new farm equipment, heck, even new skateboards- if you stepped out for almost a decade you'd be amazed at how things had changed. The change in archery has been dramatic in the past decade, which is why archery is a lot like many other areas of life...

[Random guy]

Ya know I have been buried in the trad shooting for awhile and was amazed at the advancements. I read one artcle talking about the dampening systems between companies. Some pretty cool stuff and it made me laugh as at one point I had a Jennings Buckmaster 320, thing was wicked fast for its time but holy heck it would vibrate your fillings loose unless you slowed it down to the 280 range by upping arrow weight. I see many companies have cured several problems but it does look spendy. I may get wild and buy some new beaver fur for my string silencers this year, maybe even a new set of blades as mine have been hand sharpened waaay to much and are losing weight I bet they are down to 140 grains by now.

I see one ad for a digital read out deal for bow movement to help correct shots. Wow. With the trad end of it we shoot an arrow, sit back and have some coffee while waiting for it to get to the target...you can tell alot by watching the arrow fly that long.

I also notice all of youth and womens models in the line ups. 15 years ago the smaller shooters just had to learn to shoot bows to big for them, now I see draw langths down into the low 20 inch marks off the shelf. Pretty cool.

[DonBo]

Come on Jonny, look at the custom traditional bows out there today. Many are easily as spendy as most compounds. Fred Bear would hemmorage if he saw what a new Super Kodiak (that I bought used for $25) sells for these days.

Yes, there's tons of advancements out there. Are most of us shooting digital wiz bang electro magnetic gizmos? No. Most new set-ups are not a lot different from the Q2 you shot, with the added bonus of being a bit quieter and faster.

You traditional shooters have all the respect I can give you. Me? I started out that way a whole bunch of years ago when that was all there was. Now, I've found a better way and I'm sticking to it.

[lichen fox]

How about this one Jonny?

Mass Weight 8.3

Powerstroke 17 1/4 in

Peak Weight 170 lbs

IBO Speed 412 - 402

Kinetic Energy 160 - 152 ft-lbs (425 grain bolt)

Axle-to-Axle 16 3/4" at brace, 11 3/4" at full draw

Oh, I forgot to mention....It shoots full length arrows! And if you have an AR 15 you can get it for only $1350...if you need the AR frame too it's $1650....If you want to test it out you'll be able to shoot it at Range Day in TRF soon!!

[bmc]

My dad has run his archery shop for 33 years. In the 70's there was a mix of traditional and compound shooters. Then traditional archery kind of went by the wayside, at least for his customers.

Now he is seeing a resurgenece of traditional shooters. Some of his compound shooters are reverting back to the stick and string, feeling archery technology is getting "too advanced".

My two bows are a Hoyt Easton Carbon Matrix that shoots Easton ACC arrows and my other bow is a Hoyt Dorado recurve that shoots Beman MFX Classics.

I just got my recurve this spring and am absolutely LOVING it!!! I've been shooting it a ton and am confident in my abilities out to 15 yds.

Stump shooting and shed hunting has been a blast!!!

It will be an interesting summer as we will be having a summer traditional only 3d league at my dad's place.

This fall my dad, brother, and I will be hunting with our sticks and strings.

Brian

[BoxMN]

On the flip side, I am newbie, and actually I found getting into it has been pretty darn easy. I read plenty but the best has been the advice I got here and from other friends. And that is, don't worry about specs or speed, just get comfortable shooting with what you got, and do any mods later, if you want.

I really like how easy and smooth and quiet my bow is, and I spent just a tad over $500 (for everything included arrows. case and broadheads - not the top shelf, but nice) and another $200 for a stand and I am ready to hunt after I spend the summer target shooting. I love shooting, wish I could at home in WBL but they won't let us.

I'm having fun

[HNTNBUX]

I look at it like fishing, you can make it as complex as you want it to be. I could catch fish with a bobber, split shot and a plain hook but it is not my first choice. I could also get side imaging sonar, gps controlled trolling motor, study barametric pressures and temperature charts. I don't go there either. I find myself somewhere in the middle which is my comfort zone for most things. Once it gets past a certain point it becomes more work than fun. I still shoot a Mathews Swtichback XT, shaky hunter and Gold Tip arrows at about 285fps. I could go faster, newer and more high tech but why. The options are out there for those that want them, I know you have the latest gadgets in your boat right JP.

[Bear55]

Good analogy HNTNBUX, it seems no matter what your hobby is these days you can get overwhelmed by all the info out there. I guess it's good and bad at the same time, as long as you don't get too wrapped up in everything and just enjoy your hunt you should be fine.

[Random guy]

This topic has been interesting and I can see where many get into the newest latest and greatest stuff. Heck look at cel phones, now that is overwhelming to me. I was curious as I flipped through the magazine just how much of a price tag was attached. Another comment that made a good point is the current cost of recurve and long bows; $1,000 for a traditional bow is not out of the question at all. In fact the bottom end of them is around the $400 mark anymore, and that’s a bare bow, stick & string. From gas to groceries everyting cost more, unfortunelty.

The new archery age is efficient and generates clean kills and that is a huge plus in my book. Although what I was wondering is will there be a breaking point once archery becomes so advanced it will need to be regulated? Used to be hunter success was so low it allowed for longer seasons and fairly liberal regs, will it or has it gotten to the point archery hunting will need to be regulated to match increased success rates due to modern equipment? I'm guessing with good equipment and practice the range of a compound has increased? What is the census of a "long shot" now? I can tell you if conditions are right and the critter is willing to sit still I will push my recurve out to 30 yards. But I am also shooting full length arrows with 125-150 grain blade for stuff with hoof or claws. That and I shoot daily making sure I can hit my mark without thinking about it.

Interesting stuff.

[sticknstring]

Interesting topic. I think there are too many ifs & uncontrollables that will keep archery a close-range game. That's the beauty of it and the reason many of us enjoy it so much. Sure, faster flatter bows may allow you to extend your range 10 yds but if you don't practice, it doesn't much matter. I'm thinking of picking up one of my grandpa's Bear takedowns and carrying it afield this fall. After a little friendly competition at a Genesis shoot at the PY convention, I'm really fired up to go back to the recurve. And I just got a new compound too. Dang it.

[koonie]

I wish the bow companies wouldn't even give the IBO numbers. 99.9% of the time we won't be shooting even remotely close to those numbers.

[Powerstroke]

Fortunately, archery is still a game of fit, form and mental ability. No matter how light, fast and forgiving the equipment gets it won't make a star out of anyone if its not fit right for them and they don't shoot it properly. Anyone can be a decent shot with a gun, but rarely can you make any joe an archer.

Even the fastest bow/arrow combos are still 75-80% slower than a shotgun slug. And even though guys have mentioned you can get outfitted for ~$500, that's by trying to save money. If you want the newest and greatest with all the candy on it, expect to pay $1200 or more to get outfitted. The Hoyt Carbon Element is ~$1200 just for the bow so figure $1500 plus if you're starting from scratch.

I can use a single pin out to 35yds on my bow without getting higher or lower than 3" from center. I figured this out first through archery computer software and then by practice in the field. I get amazing speed using a 62lb draw and have enough "energy" to kill any north american game. Technology...ain't it grand.

Despite all that, the thing that fails most often is right between my ears.

[leech~~]

At some point every thing comes down to the law of diminishing gains. Just how much more do you want to spend to kill the same Deer at 30-40 yards out? After a certain speed and accuracy your just paying more to acomplish less! A 30-30 will kill a Deer at 100yrd just as well as a 7mm mag but do you really need the mag to do it?

[Rippinlip]

Fortunately, archery is still a game of fit, form and mental ability. No matter how light, fast and forgiving the equipment gets it won't make a star out of anyone if its not fit right for them and they don't shoot it properly. Anyone can be a decent shot with a gun, but rarely can you make any joe an archer.

Even the fastest bow/arrow combos are still 75-80% slower than a shotgun slug. And even though guys have mentioned you can get outfitted for ~$500, that's by trying to save money. If you want the newest and greatest with all the candy on it, expect to pay $1200 or more to get outfitted. The Hoyt Carbon Element is ~$1200 just for the bow so figure $1500 plus if you're starting from scratch.

I can use a single pin out to 35yds on my bow without getting higher or lower than 3" from center. I figured this out first through archery computer software and then by practice in the field. I get amazing speed using a 62lb draw and have enough "energy" to kill any north american game. Technology...ain't it grand.

Despite all that, the thing that fails most often is right between my ears.

+1

[Random guy]

Fortunately, archery is still a game of fit, form and mental ability. No matter how light, fast and forgiving the equipment gets it won't make a star out of anyone if its not fit right for them and they don't shoot it properly.

Very true. I personally feel the compound end of it is harder in that aspect. With traditional shooting a form is needed to get your "aim" but once you have that feel of where the bow needs to be a traditional archer can deviate all over the place. My draw can be off by inches. I can be bent around a tree shooting the bow 100 horizontal instead of the normal 45 degree tilt, I shoot both eyes open or have my entire form curled up in a circle and still make the shot. The shot calculator (brain) figures that stuff out as its happening and instinctively adjusts. Now compounds I would think the smallest deviation in form, anchor point or grip has big consequences in arrow launch, paradox and flight not to mention point of impact. In my opinion the ultra fast compound is actually much harder shoot. Just like driving; if I am going 20 mph and drift off the road and over correct very little happens other then I look like a bad driver as I am only going 20 mph. Now at 100 mph that same correction on the wheel is going to be devastating.

[Scoot]

In my opinion the ultra fast compound is actually much harder shoot. Just like driving...

I agree with your main point, Jonny. However, there's no way in heck the new high tech compounds are harder to shoot than traditional gear. I'd bet a lot of money that I could take some random guy off the street and spend an hour with him shooting at a range with a new compound that fit him. After that hour, he'd beat most traditional shooters (who have been doing it for many years) at 20 yards. Heck, my six year old son shoots a wheeled bow and he can beat a lot of traditional shooters at 20 yards right now!

But like you said, traditional gear is about practice, instinct, and experience. Getting a feel for the shot and intuitively knowing what'll happen and adjusting for it, without really having to consciously process all of that info- it just sort of happens. However, it doesn't happen without tons and tons of practice and experience. Shooting fancy, schmancy wheely bows isn't about instinct and automatic adjustments, it's about good form, IMO.

Interesting topic and discussion. Thanks for keeping it positive and informative- not all discussions on this topic stay that way...

[Random guy]

It really got my curoisty going aasd I never really compaired it side by side in a open discussion.

[SmellEsox]

I've been bowhunting for around 30 years, starting with a Bear Polar LTD then a PSE Pulsar, then a PSE Jet Flite Express, then a Jennings ProMaster, and now a Hoyt Vectrix XL and Matthews Drenalin. In all those years, my shots are still the same distance. On average about 12 yards. To be honest, for most of my shots, I could still have the Polar LTD and be just fine. Of all those bows, I was most accurate with the old round wheel PSE Pulsar. I paid less than 100 dollars for it new. I don't really notice the new equipment making it any easier. Maybe because I am older, but I still have to get drawn on a deer, hold and make an accurate shot. All the new expensive gear is the same as the old stuff but more techy and expensive. I really don't need micro adjustable fiber optic sight pins to kill whitetails at 15 yards. Nor do I need a dropaway rest or string dampeners. My old bows with a simple launcher type rest and solid stainless steel pins were just as accurate out to 30+ yards for me. I suppose the guy out west shooting longer distances probably benefits most from today's technology.

As far as speed is concerned, my bows are not speed bows by today's standards. I use fairly heavy arrows (400 to 460 grains) so don't get speeds much over 250 or 260 fps. But that is plenty fast for shots inside 30 yards. And I have yet to not shoot through a deer with my present bows. To me it is still a close in game where the challenge is getting close to the animal.

[bigbucks]

SmellEsox,

Interesting point when you said your average shot was 12 yards. Got me to thinking about what mine would be. I have all my archery kills logged including distance, so I did some math. I would have guessed about 15 yards, by the math it's 16.94 yards. I've killed deer from 6-45 yards, but the vast majority are no more than 25.

My bow is a Mathews CQ3, 8-9 years old, longer axle, not super fast, but solid. I've got one pin for 0-30, then I just hold a bit higher accordingly if I decide to take a longer shot, which is rare. (Just two kills over 30 yards.) One I knew the shot would likely be exactly 35 yards out of a particular stand & practiced for it. (It was exactly 35 yards, just no way to get closer.) The other was a quick happening thing. I knew the shot was long, but I underestimated it badly. I got lucky & the deer ducked right into the arrow. It wasn't her day...

[Walleyehooker]

I just bought a new PSE Stinger the other day at Cabelas thanks to their $100 off $500 purchase.$399 for the bow,$75 for some arrows and $50 for a case.Walked out the door for about $450.I didnt think that was bad as my last bow I bought about 25 years ago was close to that price and no where near the bow this is.Sure you can spend a small fortune on a high end bow but I figure most deer are shot within 20 yards or so, so if you cant bag one with this you probably wont bag one with a more expensive bow.Even my old bow baged deer back in the day.I think when it comes to bow hunting its probably 80% shooter and 20% bow that gets the deer.Good thing I have plenty of time to practice,its been a while.

[MJ1657]

This is a great thread.

I am considering buying my first bow and giving it a try and this is all good info.

[Walleyehooker]

I didnt find purchasing a new bow overwhelming. I did a little looking on line before I went to Cabelas so I new what bow I wanted before I got there. PSE has been around forever and I know they make a good product.The guys at Cabelas were very knowledgeable and picking out arrows and a case was a breeze.I bought the package bow so down the road I may change the sights or arrow rest and possibly buy a release. Those are a little overwhelming as the cost can go from $30-200 and they make a LOT of different ones so its a harder decision.

[PropsterII]

Regarding JP's original question of how daunting a task is it to set up a bow and get it shooting well, I'd say if you know a little yourself or have someone knowledgable help you, it takes no time at all. Now I've had a little experience with a few bows in my time, but for example I just got a bow for my 20 yr old daughter, who decided after all these years of being an animal rights activist (ok, I exxagerate) that she wanted to bowhunt, which is cool. She hadn't shot since she was 4 or 5 yrs old. So I buy the bow and get it in the box. She's coming home from school today so yesterday morning I thought I'd set it up while I'm watching the fishing shows. I do 95% of it sitting in my chair. Eyeballed most of it, we'll tune it better when she gets the poundage up. She comes home and we go try it out. After a few reminders on form she's shooting 3-4" groups at 20 yards. So really, it's no problem. The fact is the modern gear can make a better shooter of someone much more quickly.