Interesting... confused...

[Scoot]

My nephews' buddy, Kaden, shot this doe.

The doe came past my ground blind and was about 15 yards away from the blind when he shot it. I didn't set up Kaden with his equipment, so don't crack on me for it-- he's pulling somewhere in the mid 40 lb's, is shooting medium-light arrows, and is using Rage 3 blade broadheads (I think this combo leaves a ton to be desired- the combo of light arrow, low poundage, and mechanical does not make for a perfect set up in my opinion).

Sorry for the blood in the pic below, but I think this has educational value.

This shot was, in my opinion, perfect. It was perfectly broadside and did not hit any leg bone. Very interesting to me, his arrow did not penetrate the body cavity at all- absolutely none. He got about 1 1/2 inches of penetration. When they gutted the deer out, the very carefully looked inside of the body cavity and it was absolutely not penetrated- it wasn't compromised at all. After it was shot, the doe ran almost all the way to my mother-in-laws farmstead, which is about 1/2 mile away from where the ground blind. But still... it died from a shot that didn't touch any vitals and penetrated less than 2 inches!

This totally shocks me that the deer died. Has anyone ever heard of anything like this? Apparently there wasn't much of a blood trail either, which confused me further.

Lastly, I think this story provides a learning lesson about equipment. You can take what you want from it, but I know it really hammered home some of my current beliefs about low to medium KE setups. It's not that I think medium/low KE setups are bad, particularly when they may be a necessity for many youth or gals, but coupling them with a mechanical is really a bad idea (for the record, I shoot mechanicals on deer, but I also am pushing a KE of 90). Also, using an arrow as light as he is to gain speed is counter-productive with regard to penetration, IMO.

But, most importantly, Kaden made a great shot and the outcome was good. I'm very happy for him and I thought I'd share the story and a little info to boot.

[student]

That is interesting. I'd be curious to find out if there is a major artery or vein there. I don't think there is but that would be one explaination.

Was the deer shot out of your homemade blind? How's the fabric holding up?

[Farm_Kid]

There really isn't much there other than the subscapular vein and artery that run along the shoulder blade. They really aren't that major or all that big, which makes me wonder if it could even bleed out from severing them. Perhaps it went into shock after the shot and died.

[HooknHorns]

Iv heard of young kids getting hit by a baseball in the chest and dying,rare but has happened. Dont think I would classify this case as blunt trauma, maybe a clot to the brain. Like you said though, interesting.

[paceman]

Wow that is interesting, but I have no idea how a deer can die from basically a deep scratch. very odd.......

[Cheetah]

Poison tipped broadhead.

Besides that I have no clue, lucky day I guess.

[MUSKY18]

Scoot..........

What was the blood trail like? I am assuming that since she ran almost 1/2 mile, there was some sort of blood trail for you guys to track her with?

On another note....years back, my dad "dad" shot a doe one year opening morning. Dropped her dead in her tracks. When we gutted her, found out, he completely missed with his shot. Either scared her to death or gave her a massive heart attack???

[Scoot]

Musky, the blood trail was fairly sparse- there was some blood, but not a lot.

[SmilinBob]

it would only take a pin hole sized wound into the thoracic cavity between the lung and chest wall to introduce air causing whats called a pneumothorax, which in and of itself isn't that lethal. However, when that air is allowed in, but not back out, you get a tension pneumothorax, which builds pressure and collapses a lung or compromises vessels and heart function, and this is very lethal. That is why we stick needles in your chest when you are involved in major trauma or they put chest tubes in at the hospital, the air needs a way out to preserve the bellows of the lungs. A deer would also be susceptable to the same condition and it doesn't take long for the effects to set in. This sounds like probable cause to me in this case. Just out of curosity, I don't shoot mechanicals, how much energy is used in opening them? I keep looking at them, but am still using what I have cause they have been working for me.

[musky hunter]

Very interesting and I certainly agree with your comments on the setup, particularly with regard to the weight of the arrow. Has the bow been chronographed? Kinetic energy has everything to do with velocity of and the mass of the arrow. Without chronographing the bow and weighing an arrow the exact KE cannot be determined. I was shocked at how slow (219 fps) my older 55 lb. bow spit out an arrow. That being said, whatever KE available was dissapated before the arrow penetrated the body cavity. There are many factors we will never know for a fact in this case. All speculation but:

did his sleeve catch the bowstring?

was any branch or brush in the way?

were the blades sharp?

did he shoot through a blind?

did the bow limb strike something on firing?

Any small factor know or unknown other than a perfect discharge of the bow degrades whatever energy is available. Physics is physics. All that being said, congratulations to the young hunter on his success.

[psepuncher]

First, hats off to the Hunter.

Love the smile with harvest in hand.

just a wild uneducated guess.

But maybe hit a front rib bone and partial hit of the arterie going from the heart up to the backbone.

{Being a young deer] after running it's little heart out.... it expired.

I like what S. Bob said. pretty interesting.

[mrklean]

thats pretty crazy, maybe he scared it to death

[rbs]

Congrats to him! I would suspect internal bleeding from the blunt trauma.

[sticknstring]

That's a headscratcher... luckily he was able to recover the deer. Probably learned a valuable lesson in broadhead selection as well. Congrats to the young man.

[Bear55]

On another note....years back, my dad "dad" shot a doe one year opening morning. Dropped her dead in her tracks. When we gutted her, found out, he completely missed with his shot. Either scared her to death or gave her a massive heart attack???

I had this happen too, I hit a doe high and she dropped and died shortly after that. I ended up hitting the spine, I can't recall the name of it but a hard shock to the spinal cord or central nervous system will kill a deer fairly fast. It is not all that common but it can happen with archery equipment. I don't think this is the case with this deer because she ran so far but scoot any chance the broadhead hit part of the spine?

[huntnfish]

I saw Rod yesterday and was hoping you would post something about this, Scoot. No one that was shooting could come up with any reason this deer died. Smilinbob's answer is interesting and maybe the only logical answer. I think Kaden still had a smile on his face yesterday.

[eyeguy 54]

Sounds like the lung finally screwed up to me.

[delmuts]

This has been a interesting topic!

I will deviate from it some though! I assume that he is done bow hunting for the season? If so! It would be an excellant time to work with the kid on his set up. 40# is light but can do the job, but i would stress the advantage of a fixed broad head compared to the mechanicals. Also helping him find an arrow to balance out his set up would do wonders. You would also have another year to help him build up to more poundage for next year.Just my $.02

[Code-Man]

Very interesting topic. Last year I lost a chocolate 8 pt when I shot him in the shoulder blade. I shoot about 300-310 fps with a 400 grain arrow. I hit the buck right in the shoulder blade. Granted I know it was a bad shot and the wind blew my shot there but I should have shattered through the shoulder blade and I didn't. I hear great things about Rage and that the Rage 3 blade has the best penetration of any broadhead (main reason for purchase) but when the buck ran off I didn't get through the bone. We tracked it for 4 hours and founds lots of blood/clots but after a mile crossing the river 4 times we finally lost the blood trail. Granted I had a lot more KE then the doe story but I'm not sold on the Rage's

[Scoot]

Code, bummer on the buck. As far as a broadhead having the best penetration- I'm extremely skeptical that a 3 bladed mechanical head would be tops in that category. I actually shoot a 3 bladed mechanical for deer, so I'm not cracking on that type of head here. But a 3 bladed head will naturally require more energy to push through than a two bladed head. Also, mechanicals require more energy than fixed blades. So... a 3 bladed mechanical has two strikes against it when it comes to penetration.

With your set up though, I'd have no reservations about shooting a 3 bladed mechanical head. My set up isn't quite as fast, but I shoot a heavier arrow that slows me down a bit more. I'm pushing tons of KE and I'm very confident with the 3 bladed Spitfire Maxx's that I shoot. I've been extremely impressed with that so far.

BTW, who ever invented those stinkin' shoulder blades on deer? They should do like to get in the way...

[bigbucks]

Yes, you'd think they'd have invented a smaller less troublesome shoulder blade by now & retrofitted all of those deer out there...

Perhaps someone should work on a mineral that will weaken shoulder blades...

[InTheNorthwoods]

Very interesting topic. Last year I lost a chocolate 8 pt when I shot him in the shoulder blade. I shoot about 300-310 fps with a 400 grain arrow. I hit the buck right in the shoulder blade. Granted I know it was a bad shot and the wind blew my shot there but I should have shattered through the shoulder blade and I didn't. I hear great things about Rage and that the Rage 3 blade has the best penetration of any broadhead (main reason for purchase) but when the buck ran off I didn't get through the bone.

Not to offend at all, but speaking from experience, I think that the result of your shot had very little to do with the broadhead. I had the same thing happen with a very similarly set up bow. 70lbs, 29" draw, 400+ grain arrow, probably traveling somewhere near 300 fps. The only difference was that I was shooting a Muzzy 3 blade 100 grain head (fixed blade broadhead). I hit the buck in the shoulder (I am guessing dead center of heaviest bone) and got only a couple inches of pentration at under 30 yards. The deer ran off with the arrow dangling, and my jaw on the ground from 20 feet up in the stand. That buck ended up being fine until 3 weeks later he ran into a gun hunter in my camp.

The point is, I think that in alot of cases people quickly blame their equipment, and in many of those cases - their broadhead, when in reality it is often shot placement and dumb luck that can cause what many would think is a fairly good shot to become not lethal. Essentially, on some shots, the broadhead just won't matter.

Yet, in certain cases, as in this thread where you have a low poundage bow and a low amount of KE, equipment can certainly make a difference. In the case of this successful young hunter, I would always be a proponent of a sharp, cut on contact, 2 blade broadhead. It is simply the best choice when shooting low poundage according to the studies (and makes sense in my small brain). I think that a simple, sharp, two blade head can take out alot of the problems that can arise with a mechanical head opening and penetrating. When you start to shoot a faster arrow, those same problems are often overcome/made up for by arrow speed and the subsequent KE.

In the case with this young man, and why the deer was killed, I am the most intriqued by SmilinBob's answer. It seems to make sense to me.

By the way, CONGRATS to the young hunter. It looks like he made great shot placement! I am glad that it worked out for him.

[Scoot]

Not to offend at all, but speaking from experience, I think that the result of your shot had very little to do with the broadhead.

[InTheNorthwoods]

Yes, my quote was speaking to the post Codeman had made.

By the way, CONGRATS to the young hunter. It looks like he made great shot placement! I am glad that it worked out for him.

The kids shot was 10 ring, it appears his equipment just wasn't up to the task (which is a result that suprises me to an extent, I'd have thought that he would have gotten at least moderate, or enough to penetrate well into the body cavity, under the explained conditions and even with a large mechanical broadhead).

[Scoot]

Yep, sorry- wasn't trying to jump on you. It was hard to tell which comments were directed towards Code vs. towards me. Sounds to me like we are very much on the same page. I also agree with your last post- I can't hardly believe the lack of penetration. Instead of relatively poor penetration, he got virtually none. Crazy...