Antler Point Restrictions

[Musky Buck]

Bob I had the same thought though with walleye slots, I thought well people will just hide them or whatever, I'm sure some do, we can't enforce that very well and same with deer, I think the walleye slots have caught on better now, sure some will bend the rules and some always have, that's the way a lot of things work in this country. Buck Lottery ? Hope not. When you fire out a couple hundred thousand on deer hunting land you hope to be able to hunt it for a buck. If that is the greatest need to help out, then I guess that will be some spendy doeheads.

[buckhunter21]

I think we would all like to see more bucks without changing any laws but i think that would take a very long time. More and more people are passing on younger deer every year but its just not catching on fast enough and dont know if it ever will to make a difference in the quality of bucks in this state. That is why I think we need some kind of regulation to do this. Most people in this state grow up with the mentality that they can shoot any buck and shoot as many as there party will allow them because the law says they can, and if you grow up with that mentality you are more than likely going to stick with it. If we get some kind of reg to increase the number of large bucks then maybe people will change their views and we wont need a regulation after a few years. I hate as much as anybody else to tell someone they cant shoot a certain deer because its not "big enough" and i wish there was someway that both sides of this could get what they want, but right now the way the laws are the people who want to see more mature bucks are on the losing end of it.

[BobT]

I know what you're saying but if I'm back in the woods and my other party members are less than a couple hundred yards away and I take a buck even though I've already tagged a buck, in less than 10 minutes my hunting buddy is there putting his tag on it. Unless the CO is going to wander out into the forest aimlessly looking for hunters, it's not likely he'll be anywhere within earshot much less eyesight to catch us doing it.

Whereas when I'm out in a boat on open water a CO driving by on the highway along shore sees me out there and can launch and be at my side in less than 10 minutes to check my livewell. Much easier to catch me doing that than taking an extra buck while party hunting.

Bob

[Musky Buck]

I hear that Bob, that is already happening in places. We don't have CO's in a way, unless you linger by roads when was the last time you were checked and was it in the field, they check deer drives and people at the road for the most part, they are way overtaxed and did you read they aren't planning on hiring any new ones until 2011, maybe. I wish as CO's can help the sheriff's office on calls I wish the sheriff's office could help crack down on hunting violations but a lot of deputies like to hunt, I wish they'd turn in my neighbor for shooting too early or late, you'll say you turn him in, how do you prove either or. So if you were a fish rule breaker you'd be the dummy that put like 30 walleyes in your livewell while fishing alone, cmon bob the crooks hide them anywhere, but in the livewell. It's all % with most people obeying the law and rules. I don't care about the rule breakers, yes it stinks, but I can only control myself and hopefully rub off on my nephews etc and people I hunt with, the importance of not being a game hog and never straying off the legal path. Bottom line is go ahead and cheat, if that's you it's you and it's in you, but you have to live with yourself and Bob if your group wants to skirt the law go ahead, don't assume that will be everyones strategy, to figure out the best way to get around new regs. The CO's shouldn't have to catch anyone, but given a pop. of 600,000 hunters of course we'll have the clowns involved giving decent people that hunt a bad name and of course you'll hear more about the bad then the good, America loves that, just turn on TV tonight or any night. The first 3-4 news events of the night are usually bad or have a bad tone to them.

[Bear55]

Bob I had the same thought though with walleye slots, I thought well people will just hide them or whatever, I'm sure some do, we can't enforce that very well and same with deer, I think the walleye slots have caught on better now, sure some will bend the rules and some always have, that's the way a lot of things work in this country. Buck Lottery ? Hope not. When you fire out a couple hundred thousand on deer hunting land you hope to be able to hunt it for a buck. If that is the greatest need to help out, then I guess that will be some spendy doeheads.

Great point Musky, now I'm not trying to compare walleye slots to deer management but there are some similarities we can look at. Before slots were imposed on some lakes you maybe had a minority of guys releasing fish. Some guys argue that if QDM is popular that is all we need but had slots not been imposed as a new regulation a lot guys don't release fish and never see the benefit of catch and release. You could say the same thing for deer hunting, the state might need to change a few regs for some people to see the benefits of QDM.

[Musky Buck]

Right on Bear55, we can all agree change can be tough and when it alters your routine and way of life it throws us off the norm. I sometimes have wished to that our deer registration process could be a bit more thorough. I don't want our gas station people to get the brunt of that, they are busy enough, but while registering I heard 2 guys saying don't worry about it da da da da. What they were talking about was how a party member had to go back to the cities so they were using his tag and license to register the deer they had, use those extra tags first, then save yours for another or muzzy. There's a million loopholes I know. I think why we are discussing AR or no buck party hunting etc. is because it is everyone's right now to party hunt for bucks if you choose to and many of us can't change the kind of person that is hammering 2,3,4,5 or even 6 bucks which is the most I have heard anyone getting in one year. We have more licensed hunters in the state than we have antlered bucks each year. We have longer seasonal opportunities if chosen. A much more pressured herd. A herd in many areas that is lacking mature bucks. A new wave of hunters who are tired of year after year never even seeing let alone getting a chance at a mature buck, in those areas the cycle just continues to where now there are more hunters than decent bucks so what do those guys do other than pray for a large buck fawn crop, they shoot em up.

[Ice Chicken]

Why does it always have to be the other guys fault when there are no or very few big bucks left in the area you hunt in? Maybe just maybe if you guys that have to hammer that trophy big boy every year would take a doe instead things may improve. But I am sure that would be a ego buster for most. To me wanting everyone else to sacrifice their hunting experiance and you giving up nothing in return seems kind of self serving. Or did I miss what you are going to do for everyone else who enjoys hunting and doesn't have to shoot that trophy year after year?

[Bear55]

Ice Chicken I think you are mistaken on who is shooting does and who are hammering the bucks year after year. Since I started practicing QDM in 2000 I have taken 2 bucks and maybe 10 or 12 does. That is 7 unfilled buck tags, I probably pass up 10-20 buck every season. I would guess most other QDM guys in the state have similar stats.

Now you might have other guys who have shot 10 to 30 little bucks in that same time frame, that right there is the problem.

[buckhunter21]

Ice Chicken, i dont agree with you at all. How can you say we dont make sacrifice by passing on numerous smaller bucks to try and let them get bigger only to have someone blast them 10 minutes later. And i dont know about these other guys but i know im not shooting a trophy every year, i would be happy to shoot one every 5 years even. Thats what we are trying to improve istead of maybe getting a trophy once or twice in our life to maybe getting one every couple of years. But to say we want every one to give up there hunting experience and we give nothing in return is just a low blow we have been making sacrifices for years and not getting any return for it. I dont think there are many people out there who can honestly say they dont want to shoot a trophy buck so i dont understand why you dont think it would make hunting more enjoyable for most people.

[Musky Buck]

The trophy argument and AR a bit. You know we are a geared country toward any trophy or in athletics they'd never hand one out, with first always being bigger. Hunting wise, we shoot the male species predominately with exception to geese. Turkey-Male.Pheasant-Male.Elk,Deer,Moose, it's why those buck tags cost way more than an antlerless. Anyway ice chicken, I have lots of big bucks in the area I hunt in because of self induced AR or go/grow. We don't hammer a trophy every year and shooting a doe won't put better horns on a bucks head in my area, things are in check deer # wise. We have been giving up tons for the return, I have let 40-50 little bucks have a fighting chance for a 2nd or 3rd set of head gear realizing if those little guys jump the fence they will be shot, but that's out of my control and I can't worry about it, it is what it is. Maybe us go/grow guys should hunt old school again and hammer em and fill party member tags, get the wife one, etc. and heck with the neighbors, that philosophy would put a huge dent into other parties hunting successes. The only change you'd have under AR would be only adults from 21-60 would not be allowed to stack up the 1,2,3,4,5 or 6 point buck. If they wouldn't protect the young and older hunters, I would not be for it. I'm at the point in hunting where if I can't hunt for a decent buck I don't want to go. I'm sorry I don't have the heart to shoot healthy does and fawns, the way the deer numbers are down in our area, we have plenty of people around me willing to. I've field dressed 23 bucks and 3 does. I do not enjoy any bit of that. If my knife is to be used it will only be used on a mature buck, I've shot enough deer and our numbers are in check and our go/grow is working so I'd be a fool to drop a Y buck when 5 minutes later a previous season buck I passed on has turned into a giant, my 2cents actually 10 cents.

[CSTPETER]

Ice Chicken, I hate to pile on but you're way off here. Bear, Buckhunter, Musky and myself have been advocating the harvest of does as a sensible alternative in favor of letting the little bucks walk. The reason there aren't as many mature deer is not because we shoot them all, It's because they all get shot at 1.5 years.

[Musky Buck]

Right on guys, heck I admit I can't shoot a doe or fawn anymore and it isn't about the big buck. But, 95% of the people around my areas will and do take them by bow,rifle,or muzzy or by car. If the numbers weren't in check I would gladly help things out and take select doe antlerless deer. If I wanted some meat, I'd take a doe for sure. To me if I get meat great, if I don't oh well. Usually some family members give me some or enough for the year anyway. As spring turns into summer turns into early fall, if you know and can scout deer in your area you'll know if there are too many, too few, or just about right then hunt accordingly. Many of us aren't saying trophy deer all over etc, but we'd like to see less of the yearling buck crop just getting slaughtered every year and the tendency would be more larger bucks in return which would spread out and give more hunters a better opportunity at a larger goat because there are many sections of land in MN where it's been awhile since a mature buck has walked in it. I hate to use a fishing analogy but I loved duck lake by huntersville for walleyes. It used to be great until the fisherman kept all the big walleyes. Each year they got smaller and smaller until it wasn't even worth fishing. Since the 1 over 20" and more catch and release, it is slowly bouncing back. Duck lake was left with lots of very small walleyes. In one of my deer areas,the now bad one, we had 2 great back to back years where most everyone bagged a good buck, what replaced those big boys were the fawns from the next year, the 1 1/2 year olds and now that cycle can't be broken because now the average hunter only sees yearling bucks so that is what is going down pronto. I know right now with 20 stands in that area that there might be 2-3 good bucks around next fall and a dozen or 2 pending the buck fawn ratio, little guys. I scouted every weekend last fall and never saw a shootable buck in velvet or otherwise. The area report followed suit. I do understand this, that hunting does mean different things to different people. I do understand this to that in many areas of the state the small buck is overharvested.

[Musky Buck]

Sorry about the epistle. This is the bottom line. I luckily, and doing without financially, can hunt deer in 3 separate areas. Friends and family have seen through the years some of the bucks I have been so fortunate to connect with. These friends and family wish they could have the chance at a good buck more than the going rate which some have yet to see a decent buck, for some it has been many years. At first many were fooled into thinking bad weather or an off year or poor daylight rut activity or you know point the finger at the most likely reasons. Now they are realizing there might not be a mature buck near their property last year, this year and for the next upcoming years. I know the hard part for some is not having enough acres to hunt, heck there are hundreds of stands on land where no deer live, they just shoot what comes out of other landowners. These fringe hunters realize any crack they get they better fire. My relatives and friends realize even though they let the small buck walk, once off the property if seen most likely shot, they are tired of that recycling of yearling bucks so I go to the plate for them.

[Musky Buck]

Got the ? thrown my way, why don't I let them hunt my areas etc. Well, the doing without financially. I've invested a lot of money into land and deer hunting. Most of these relatives are way better off than me financially, but they choose season tickets to the twins, lake cabins, Escalades, casino gambling, etc. As soon as I would see some season tickets, a week or 2 stay at one of there lake places, etc. I'd listen then. People choose different avenues to put there financial resources, my choice was hunting ground. And some know how that can go, you let 1 hunter in and pretty soon it's 2 or more or problems can arise and many have been on either side of that ugly fence.

[james_walleye]

Hammering a big boy every year lol??!! Who is doing that? I let countless bucks go by every year but yet im not giving up anything? I have 1 "trophy" in 14 years of hunting. I have shot 9 does in that 14 years. Yeah maybe i should stop taking that 1 trophy every 14 years and we should keep letting the guy next door shoot 3 yearlings every year, yeah maybe things will then improve lol.

[PEATMOSS]

I hunt in the northwoods near the edge of Chippewa National Forest.This is where I live.My hunting party consists of myself, 2 kids, my brother and usually a friend or 2 that come up to stay with us. I own no real acreage.

Near my home is a 40 ac. piece of state forest land, 80 acres of timber co woods and I have permission to hunt the private 50 acres next to my home.

When we started hunting this area about 5 years ago, there was a party of 5 from the cities that hunted the timber co. 80. My neighbor also hunted this piece. I only hunted that piece midweek when the folks from the cities went home and usually picked up 1 deer here. The 40 acres of state land we have pretty much had to ourselves as well as the private 50. Last year, the timber co decided to lease out the 80 and the folks from the cities scooped up the lease and posted it.FYI even if given the opportunity,I could not justify paying hunderds of dollars to hunt deer.My neighbor, having nowhere else to hunt has started hunting the state 40 we do and I can no longer hunt the 80 midweek.

Also in my area is another fellow. He reminds me alot of some of the guys posting on this thread. He's got a nice 120 ac piece of 50 yr old timber. He's a nice enough guy and has even allowed me to come onto his property to do some wood cutting. He's cleared about 10 acres of this land and through a lot of work and $$$ has cultivated some incredible foodplots. What a smorgasboard! He's got everthing from rapeseed and clover to turnips and even a pumpkin patch. Now I know that in many parts of the state foodplots are only marginal at attracting deer, but a feast like this up here in the middle of timber country is like a magnet in drawing deer. With a couple of swamps and ample thick cover, the deer don't wander too far once the crops ripen. This guy also pulls a small plow thru the turnips right before deer season exposing them for easier eating.

Like alot of you folks, this guy is an AVID hunter. He bowhunts,rifle hunts and usually buys a muzzi permit too. His hunting party for that 120 consists of himself, his brother and his nephew. During the entire rifle season, they hunt big bucks only. They refuse to shoot does during this time because they don't want to spook their deer off into the neighborhood. And yes, they do harvest some pretty impressive bucks.

During these last 5yrs, my group has managed to shoot around 4-6 deer per year, although it dropped to 3 last yr.. We all pass on fawns and all shoot any adult deer we see. Our harvest varies from year to year, but overall it has been a pretty even ratio of bucks and does.We really,truly don't see that many does. My friends from the south always take one deer home to split between them as this is all the meat they care for. My family and I process the remaining deer ourselves here at home. We cut roasts and chops and grind everything else into burger. We send nothing to a processor. No beer sticks or other treats. Venison is the staple of our diet. We all like it and it is much leaner and more nutritious than beef or pork.

Like everyone, deer hunting is a total experience for us, from the fine meals, the comradderie, storys past, working together as a family to process our harvest etc....it is a unique and wonderful experience and a tradition I don't wish to see altered.

Now if AR is put into place it WILL significantly alter deer hunting for my family and friends. The bucks in my area generally need 3 1/2 years to become 8-pointers.Now IF a buck survives our winters and IF it doesn't get hit by a car and IF it doesn't get eaten by wolves it is now a very wise animal and significantly more difficult to hunt for my antsy teenagers and none too sharp friends. It is also much more likely to be located where there is a significant number of does, like for instance a freshly turned up turnip field!

When I made a comparison of PETA and the gungrabbers a couple days ago, I actually felt a little bad, but I've gotten over it.

You see, most people see PETA for what it is, a bunch of fanatics. The gungrabbers will always have the constitution to contend with.(I'm still keeping my eye on them though). But my own brethren, my fellow hunters, have begun to take the heritage that I so truly love and alter it in ways that I find most disturbing.

I too like big bucks, but putting a head on the wall is way down my list of what makes deer hunting great.The laws being proposed by the "quality" crowd will make it more difficult for me to put meat in my freezer so that others can put a head a head on their wall. It will make it more difficult for me to keep my kids interested in the sport.(I see no way these laws will be age dependant).

SIMPLY PUT, THESE REGULATIONS WILL BE DETRIMENTAL TO:1- THOSE THAT HUNT ON MARGINAL AND PUBLIC LAND 2-THOSE THAT ARE NOT AMONG THE VERY SKILLED HUNTERS THAT CAN CONSISTANTLY MATCH WITS OLDER WISER BUCKS.

IT WILL BENIFIT THOSE THAT OWN AND/OR HAVE ACCESS TO HIGH QUALITY PRIVATE LAND AND THOSE BLESSED WITH THE TIME,FINANCES AND FAMILY SITUATIONS THAT ALLOW THEM TO BECOME SKILLED ENOUGH TO HUNT THESE ELUSIVE ANIMALS.

QDM is far different from walleye slots.Walleye slots were designed to protect the prime breeding females, thus making the species more abundant for everyone. In this scenario, everyone sacrifices and benifits equally.

While I'm on a rant here, I can't quite understand why folks are willing to plop down obscene amounts of money to lock up these timber co. leases. These areas were not too long ago considered de-facto public land. Now they are locked up by one party, posted and off limits from Sept-Dec. It's sad that people seem to think that they can only have a quality hunt by keeping every other hunter out.Most of these leased areas really only get hunted the first 2 weekends then they become nothing more than a deer sanctuary.

Lastly, I've got some real mixed emotions on this foodplot phenomena. These products advertise that they "attract deer to your property" and where I live that's sure true. Now these deer that are attracted to someones property don't just materialize out of a stump, they come from somewhere else and if adequate cover is available they stay. Deer that were attracted from somewhere else are simply no longer there.Foodplots disrupt the natural distribution of deer in a given area. Now I'm not a huge proponent of baiting, but I find it bitterly ironic that one hunter can sit over a field of turned up turnips or a pumpkin patch and be considered both legal and ethical while a guy that dumps out an ice cream pail of grain by his stand is a poacher and a slob.

Some of you might label me a "meathunter". I think the term traditionalist is more accurate. I've always believed that we as hunters could work out our differences, but I'm seeing a growing sense of arrogance, selfishness and entitlement among many in our community. TO SHOOT OR NOT SHOOT SMALL BUCKS IS NOT A BIOLOGICAL QUESTION. IT IS A VALUE JUDGEMENT. I respect those that choose the challenge of hunting only for "quality" bucks.I admire the skills that many of you have acquired thru years of hard work.I respect your right to advocate your position and to attempt to persuede others. What I don't understand is how you have come to the conclusion that you are entitled to impose your values on others by force of law.

[skee0025]

Well said Peatmoss

[chub]

Agreed PEAT!

[Big Dave2]

Peatmoss, I agree with you 100%.

Thank you for eloquently stating my exact feelings on this issue.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

Bravo, Peatmoss! I'm giving you a standing ovation in my head.

I can't agree with you more on all the issues you covered!

Meathunter is a horrible lable, I agree. I've always liked the term Traditionalist as well.

Unfortunately..... as I have learned in the past debating in these threads..... you're talking to a brick wall! No one is REALLY listening that doesn't agree!

It's a sad state of affairs that the hunting and angling public are at odds with each other all the time..........

[BobT]

Thank you, Pete.

Bob

[Jameson]

Peatmoss,

I don't think you meant to, but I think you just informed the world that your neighbor is baiting. In MN it is illegal to disrupt a foodplot in any way other than normal farming practices. Your neighbor is illegally hunting over unharvested turning up turnips.

Perhaps his "foodplots" would be less successful if he wasn't doing this illegal activity and the deer would not be as drawn to it as they currently are.

[96trigger]

I was wondering about the food plots myself, Sounded like baiting to me, but that is another topic completely.

[DaveT]

Peat

Well put. I agree with most of what you wrote. I think most of us here agree that the north woods and the prairie west is different from the rest of the state. When I started rifle hunting up there, you were lucky to see a deer and doe tags were coveted. I left 10 years ago and we were to a point where seeing a young buck or 2 every day was normal. However, I was also bowhunting the metro at that point and seeing 2 or 3 trophies during a season was also normal for that area. I did not have the skills to kill those bucks at the time, but I was seeing them. I decided then to devote my time to hunting the metro and other states that I had been hearing about from other bowhunters, and improving my skills (shooting, scouting, etc.). The numerous seasons and lengthening of seasons, muzzies that can shoot 300 yards, and buck party hunting during all of it in the metro has decimated the bucks to a point that you can't hardly find a mature buck, unless you are downtown St Paul, and I can't hunt there.

I love deer, I love the swollen necked, heavy horned, swaggering giants the most. I don't want antler restrictions, I don't think they are necessary, and I do believe 100 years of them would result in a lot of mature 6 point bucks, due to the best yearling bucks getting harvested, while the worst get a free pass. I would probably accept antler restrictions because it makes no difference to me, personally. I'm not going to shoot any yearling, no matter how many points he has.

I'm sorry that Potlatch leased out the ground you used to hunt, but they own it and aren't obligated to let you hunt there. Don't blame the guy from the city who leased it, he simply wants a place to enjoy his hunting, too. This is America, a country based on a free market. Supply and demand, Potlatch is finally doing what the timber companies down south have been doing for decades. I spent last weekend in Kansas, Missouri, and Iowa, 3 states that have been kicking our butts in trophy production for the last 10 or 20 years. I got free permission to hunt over 3000 private acres in those states, in 1 weekend. If you want something, go get it. Need a new place to hunt because the timber company leased out the land you used to hunt? Quit complaining and go find some. It's there. I've mucked stalls, ran fence, fixed plumbing to get and keep permission to hunt.

Here's the difference between food plots and baiting. Baiting requires minimal investment and even less work. 50 bucks will get you 500 pounds of corn, 1 dollar will get you the gas to deliver it to your stand site with your 4 wheeler.

Your neighbor cleared 10 acres, how long did that take? How much equipment did he use? Then he presumably spread a lot of lime and fertilizer to get the soil to a place where it could grow something, possibly for 2 or 3 years. How much did he pay for that lime and fertilizer? How much roundup did he buy to kill the weeds in his new plot? Then he worked the ground over to prepare it for the seed that he bought. How much fuel has he burned? My guess is he's got 10 grand invested in that food plot, plus another 500 hours of labor, sweat and blood. Not to mention the fact that his food plot helps get your deer herd through the winter fat and sassy.

There's a big difference between food plots and baiting.

I've been vocal on this thread not because I want to cram antler restrictions down your throat, but because this thread has the most activity. All I want to see is no more buck party hunting, for reasons I have stated numerous times. I would love another week to bowhunt the rut before the woods turn blaze orange, but won't be that dissapointed if that doesn't change, because I have other states I can escape to. My contention all along is we can all have what we want. With a tiny bit of restraint, we can save 30% of our bucks every year, that will increase the number of mature bucks, so you can still kill whatever you want and I might actually have a real chance at a nice buck.

Peat, I understand where you're coming from, I really do. But eliminating buck party hunting is not going to affect you much at all, in fact, it may improve your hunting on marginal or public land because your neighbor can't fill 4 or 5 tags, leaving you with nothing to shoot.

[96trigger]

DaveT, I agree with you on most, and Peat I hear what you are saying. I am not really in favor of AR, I don't think its the answer, but wouldn't mind seeing an end to party hunting for bucks.

DaveT, just because A guy has the resources and the will to put in the plot, doesn't make baiting OK. Personally, I would turn him in. Guys like him give food plots a bad name, and ammunition to those that want to see them banned.