Thoughts on antler point restrictions?

[Bear55]

Do any of you believe that we might not have all this heated discussion if and its a big "IF",the outdoor television industry had not taken off in the last 10 years or so.

It's very possible and some people do get swept up in it. However I dont' see it having any more/less of a brainwashing effect than say the DNR having us target every legal buck and pass doe after doe for decades. A good balance is needed.

[Archerysniper]

DNR having us target every legal buck and pass doe after doe for decades. A good balance is needed.

The area I live they targeted everything. Early antler less and intensive harvest zone = 7 deer a person now the heard is suffering and your lucky too see a deer in some areas of this zone.

[Bear55]

Same here sniper, it was decades of just shooting a buck and then people slowly came around to shooting does. Which was great at frist but that turned into atag bonanza and a mild slaughter in some areas. We have been hurting for deer going on 4 years now in the area I hunt.

The DNR and hunters need to balance things out, we had a record population boom in the early 2000's - the hunters and the DNR made some mistakes. Hopefully we all learned something and we don't have the wild population swings in the future.

[Getanet]

Its not RESTRICTING other hunters, its merely limiting whats legal.

I've gone round and round with in enough APR threads that I don't have much else to say - other than I'm against them.

But I just had to quote this because it gave me a chuckle. Is "it's not restricting, it's just limiting" the same as "it's not a tax, it's a fee?"

[slimngrizzly]

More bigger bucks has nothing to do with herd health. A good friend of mine is a retired biologist for the state out here. He is completely against ARs, QDMs, ect... They are selfish in his eyes and have nothing to do with healthy deer managment...

This is completely false. This is simply logic and anyone who denies that is ignorant. More old deer means more big bucks plain and simple. A healthy population is a "pyramid" with mostly young and steadily fewer numbers of individuals as the age increased.

The deer population in farmland MN would resemble that of a 3rd World Country!!! We have an extremely large population of "yearling" animals. These animals are there to replace the 1 1/2 yr olds that are killed that hunting season. This results in very high amounts of young deer and very few old deer.... this is not your picture perfect population.

The difference between here and Somalia... is we have food. So, our numbers are here to stay with even a half-azz decent plan. BUT our age struture is similar to a starving Somalian tribe because we MANAGE IT THAT WAY. This is not how a healthy herd OF ANYTHING is proportioned.

Efforts should be made not to have more deer or bigger bucks, but a better age structure and buck:doe ratio with the deer we have, and the bigger antlered bucks... they are simply a byproduct!

That being said... im not supporting APR's. I AM saying the presence of bigger bucks very much has something to do with herd health!

[B. Amish]

i almost view apr's as a disease in the deer hunting community.

[TruthWalleyes]

I've gone round and round with in enough APR threads that I don't have much else to say - other than I'm against them.

But I just had to quote this because it gave me a chuckle. Is "it's not restricting, it's just limiting" the same as "it's not a tax, it's a fee?"

+1... on the first statement.

And the second... Well, that'd be like one of the hundreds of ultimatums i've heard from my baby's mama...It usually ends with her saying "I gave you a choice" lol

[Muskie456]

Matchset I think you are looking at this from your perspective only, really. You obviously get to put a lot of days in a tree starting early and finishing late. The majority of professional hunters spend 60 days in a tree to kill the 150's to 170's. The fact of the matter is that the MAJORITY of MN whitetail hunters are there for the beer drinking and talking smart for the weekend. They want to have there 4 of 5 sits and shoot a deer regardless of how big it is. It just isn't that important to them. I truely believe if we have APR's travel further to the north we will loose some of our hunters. We need to recruit more not loose them because a fraction of the hunter population want to pound there chest.

I have shot my share of wall hangers and they taste horrible most the time.

Maybe I am getting old but I want to preserve the great sport of hunting and not make into something it did not start out to be.

Don't forget we started this whole thing for meat not antlers. Somewhere down the line that got lost because people are marketing clothing and other hunting shwag.

In fact I can argue the deer heard is healthier not having a balanced age structure. A two year old is going to do better in a hard winter that an 5 y.o. buck that has been run down from the rut.

[candiru]

You have to remember that these TV hunters (harvesters may be a better term) are harvesting on highly-controlled land where hunting pressure and harvest is tightly controlled. That is not going to happen on a statewide basis.

[muskiemanAD]

I have hunted Whitewater WMA for the last ten years or so. I hunt with a group of 6. My observations are that this last year was the best year for us hunting and we also saw more 2.5 year olds and up then we ever have. I believe this year will be even better. I had a few buddies that were dead against this APR when it came our and after this last year, seeing our results see that yes it does work. The previous 2 years 6 guys hunting each year, 6 bucks shot that were all 2.5 year old or older. The previous 7 or 8 years, 5 deer over 2.5 year old shot. That is just what I have seen from my group who hunts in the heart of APR on heavily hunted public land. So I would say it works......

[slimngrizzly]

The fact of the matter is that the MAJORITY of MN whitetail hunters are there for the beer drinking and talking smart for the weekend. They want to have there 4 of 5 sits and shoot a deer regardless of how big it is. It just isn't that important to them.

[LightningBG]

I have yet to figure out why its such a good thing to have a balanced age structure?

Why are 3 four year old bucks better than 5 two year old bucks?

Or why is it better to have 3 four year old, vs 3 two year old?

Biologically this is...

I understand with some species, there is teaching that occurs from the elders and with humans we have workforce issues to deal with (people retiring at a similar rate to people coming into the workforce).

But for deer I haven't figured it out.

By having an APR, aren't we making it more likely that those with good genes are taken out of the pool quickest, because they will meet the APR first?

Hypothetically, if I'm going to shoot a buck, isn't a young buck better to take out?

IMO its not young vs old, its about 1 vs 0.

(personally I'm totally fine with a doe. The bucks around me aren't very impressive anyways, and it has nothing to do with hunting pressure. It's all about nutrients. Plenty of basket 8s)

[LightningBG]

Well. After much research, I have found one compelling reason for APRs and it has nothing to do with "big bucks". Has more to do with a short and intense rut period that will allow fawns to drop earlier and more bucks (of all sizes) get through the rut faster, so they can get back to putting on fat for the winter.

Come to think of it though, it has very little to do with APRs and more to do with just having more bucks available for breeding. And APRs is how they want to get to that goal.

Hudson Valley QDMA article

[sportfish]

I like apr but don't shoot a little 12 inch wide 8 point cus it has 8 points! shoot a nice big 8 point with age behind it ! We have a QDMA in our area and every year it gets better and better !! But for the ones that have to shoot a deer, does eat great !!

[DaveT]

I wish all of you could experience hunting a balanced herd during the rut.

Every one of you would demand more from our DNR.

It is not that difficult to improve the age structure of the herd, APRs are one way to do it, moving the gun season back is a better way. It boils down to limiting buck harvest for 2 years. Eliminate PARTY hunting, educate hunters about identifying and NOT shooting buck fawns. Then set reasonable harvests for antlerless deer. Our habitat can support a lot more deer than it does. Stop letting golf courses, insurance companies and farmers dictate how many deer we shoot.

Once the herd is balanced and we've stopped letting individuals kill multiple bucks the harvest will balance itself out, there will be enough yearling bucks to satisfy the meat hunters and enough of those yearlings will make it through to satisfy the mature buck hunters.

Before a gun hunter suggests we close the rut to bowhunters too, there is currently no law on the books that says you can't pick up a bow and hunt with it.

[matchset]

I wish all of you could experience hunting a balanced herd during the rut.

Every one of you would demand more from our DNR.

+100

ohhhhh man, until you do you have no idea what you are missing !! Just read my post about my 2011 season recap.... The RUT ROCKS!

[ANYFISH2]

Dave T, I will not demand that the DNR regulate me or make criminals out of good people so we have more big bucks. period. If it so much better elswhere I will go there. I can continue doing my best here to change view points of those I know and slowly see the benifits rather than regulating/criminalizing others to get what I want faster. I will not support it for you either.

[lakevet]

I wish all of you could experience hunting a balanced herd during the rut.

Every one of you would demand more from our DNR.

Agree. Lets do what Wisconsin and Iowa have done for decades and continue to do. And what Minnesota did when we dominated the "books". Main firearms hunt OFF the rut peak, ALLOW party hunting, NO apr's. Simple, effective, proven beyond a doubt formula that keeps all hunters happy with least amount of regulations.

Just have to wean all those "gotta get a buck any buck" hunters who are addicted to the easy rut hunt on the main firearms season to shift their mindset.

lakevet

[NoWiser]

Agree. Lets do what Wisconsin and Iowa have done for decades and continue to do. And what Minnesota did when we dominated the "books". Main firearms hunt OFF the rut peak, ALLOW party hunting, NO apr's. Simple, effective, proven beyond a doubt formula that keeps all hunters happy with least amount of regulations.

Just have to wean all those "gotta get a buck any buck" hunters who are addicted to the easy rut hunt on the main firearms season to shift their mindset.

lakevet

All hunters happy except those (me) that use a canoe to get to camp during gun season and have to worry about the water freezing up!! Granted that's a very small percentage, but that is my worry with moving the hunt back, out of the rut. It's a selfish reason, but I'd be lying if I said that is not what concerned me most.

While I'm mostly content with the way it is now, I'd much rather see party hunting eliminated than APR or moving the hunting season. I just don't understand, and probably never will, the need for one hunter to shoot multiple deer using other people's tags.

Having bowhunted areas where QDM was practiced that had a good age structure, I can absolutely understand why people want changes. The hunting was unlike anything I ever imagined. Consistently rattling deer in, multiple bucks chasing a doe on many occasions, and going an entire fall with only one evening that I did NOT see a buck. It was incredible, and so completely different than any deer hunting I'd ever experienced in Minnesota.

Then again I can see the point of view of the guys who have a very limited time to hunt and love eating venison, and shooting the first deer they see. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, in my mind.

So, to sum it up:

Anter point restrictions - NO (even though they wouldn't affect me)

Eliminate Party Hunting - Yes

Move Rifle Season - No

Mostly I just hope everyone has a fun, safe hunting season this year. It will be here before we know it!

[Jameson]

...Before a gun hunter suggests we close the rut to bowhunters too, there is currently no law on the books that says you can't pick up a bow and hunt with it.

How many maimed deer do you want? My guess is that most folks are simply not cut out to bowhunt. They won't put in the practice. They won't do the necessary blood tracking. They won't do the studying of where to shoot a deer and when to do it. They won't stay out of the woods when it's 80 degrees out and the deer spoils. It is better to keep bowhunting to only those that truly want to do it. Change the seasons around so that rifle season sucks and bowhunting is more awesome than it already is and everybody will be giving it a try. Unless you are an archery salesman it doesn't make sense. How many maimed deer are acceptable?

[slimngrizzly]

How many maimed deer do you want? My guess is that most folks are simply not cut out to bowhunt. They won't put in the practice. They won't do the necessary blood tracking. They won't do the studying of where to shoot a deer and when to do it. They won't stay out of the woods when it's 80 degrees out and the deer spoils. It is better to keep bowhunting to only those that truly want to do it. Change the seasons around so that rifle season sucks and bowhunting is more awesome than it already is and everybody will be giving it a try. Unless you are an archery salesman it doesn't make sense. How many maimed deer are acceptable?

Oh here we go!

Arrows wound deer and guns kill deer, seems logical...

Without a doubt, at least 50% of deer hunters are not "cut out" to have a weapon in thier hands PERIOD!

[sticknstring]

Mediocracy - bowhunting whitetails in MN.

It is what it is.

[Bear55]

I hunt when it's 80 out, sure beats the couch.

[matchset]

Mediocracy - bowhunting whitetails in MN.

It is what it is.

+1

I'm headed here!

land4sale.com/iowa

[Rippinlip]

Politicians making hunting laws.....seems wrong at the start.

I am still up in the air about APR, seen some benefits from areas that friends hunt in the restricted areas, some good arguments against it.

Myself I have multiple new bow hunters in my group and your 1st year shoot what you want. I am not in the APR zone, then after that we sit down and through education with my group I teach what I can about letting them go so they can grow.

Still their choice, but education I feel goes along way to develop hunters, not more laws.

My wife took a beautiful big doe last year with her bow and she wants to shoot a buck, but she also said she wants to shoot a quality buck to her standards, is it going to be a basket 6 or a mature 8 or bigger? Who knows, but she can decide not the government.

Don't they decide enough for us?

Just my $.02