APR, QDM, Trophy Hunters, etc....

[PurpleFloyd]

Purple

I'm assuming you're out west, if that's the case I excluded your area and the northern part of the state at the top of my post. I wouldn't know how to keep a deer alive out west, the farmers have bull dozed, drain tiled and tilled every inch of ground out there. But that's a rant for another post...

Nope. South Central. So just a bit of advise for big rack hunters: there aren't any in this region do don't bother looking as we shot all of them when they were young but I hear Iowa and eastern Mn are fantastic so I suggest hunting there .

On a side note we have some property in Northern Wi. Between Ashland and Iron River and to be honest with you even though we party hint here and don't have any big bucks I can tell you the deer are bigger and healthier here than they are up there and they taste so much better being corn fed than the pine needle eating 'Sconnie deer.

[harvey lee]

Is not the basic premise of deer management in Minnesota to reduce the herd size to the carrying capicity of the habitat, thus avoiding major winter kill? The other states mentioned I beleive do not have as severe winter kill as Minnesota. That being the case, even with a management plan in place for older bucks, if the herd is beyond it's habitats carrying capacity those deer will perish anyway? So isn't that the general consensus, if they are going to die in the winter, lets shoot them in the fall and get meat on the table?

I go back and forth on the issue, so I am not arguing for or against, just making a statement.

You are correct, if we have a deer herd that is past it's carring capacity and we have a hard winter, we will lose those bucks more than likely.

But we do not know which winter will be hard in advance so if we shoot them all to not worry about a hard winter, what will we have left?

Hard to say that when we do not know what a winter will bring until spring time.

As an example, I believe where I hunt deer in ND, for the past 15 years less the last 3, the herd was above the carring capacity but we did not lose to many, luckily.

Now, with the past 3 hard winters and a very wet spring this last spring, the deer herd is as low as I have seen it in the past 25 seasons. We have alot of habitat but when 150 plus inches of snow comes, it is tough for any deer to get the calories they need to survive with cold temps and deep snow.

From what I was explained to by anj area CO, the spring's wet weather was worse than the snow cover and colder temps. That of course is just 1 example and 1 season.

I have no idea what the answer is but I do not believe we can say let's shoot em for the table when it might get bad.

[Black_Bay]

Here we go again. Come on cold weather so we can start making ice and get into more constructive discussions like are marcum flashers really that good.

[Bear55]

When you really think about it MN does not have that much area that is capable of producing large bucks on a consistant basis. Too far north, not enough cover, not enough good food, wolves, winters, 500,000 hunters and the metro area all limiting factors.

I strongly disagree with this statement, every corner of the state is capable of producing large bucks if we give them time to grow. We seem to be the only consistant limiting factor.

[BassAholic]

Dave T-I agree with you 100%! What is with all the basher's on this site!?!? Who wants to shoot a fork buck when you can't eat the horns and a doe probably tastes better.

I've hunted WI, Iowa, MO and can honestly say the hunting is better in those states. More deer seen per hunt and bigger bucks.

I didn't even bother purchasing a license in MN this year and probably won't until some laws are changed.

Hopefully the APR's in south eastern MN will be a big success and carry onto some other parts of the state, ie, Otter Tail, Todd, Wadena counties..

It's already been proven successful in MO.

Obviously some other areas of the state would not be suitable for APR's such as northern MN with winter kill deer.

[Muskie456]

When you really think about it MN does not have that much area that is capable of producing large bucks on a consistant basis. Too far north, not enough cover, not enough good food, wolves, winters, 500,000 hunters and the metro area all limiting factors.

Forgive me if I am wrong but your kidding right? Too far north? What about Canada they have got a nice buck or two.

Not enough cover? South Dakota has three trees and they seem to have a couple of nice ones.

Not enough food, the land supports what it can, age has more to do with it than food.

Wolve population is controlled by deer population not vise versa. They are typically getting the sick, old and young. Yes their may be more in the state than the deer population can support right now but that will work itself out.

Yes we are 500,000 strong but PA is 1,000,000 stong and they kill on average nicer bucks that we do. APR have produced bigger animals for them.

I am sick of hearing our state is sub standard. Our state is awesome. We have all kinds of public land and if you are willing to get more than 100 yards away from the truck you can see some great animals. There are booners in every county. The biggest problem with our state is all the whinners not willing to put in the time or effort it takes to kill a big buck here. They just want to sit in the chunk of ten trees that the deer have to be in (farm country habitat)because there is no other cover. It is a lot easier to figure a farm country buck than a big woods buck. I think it is lack of effort by our trophy hunters that are not willing to do what it takes to kill a big buck in MN. I encourage you to go out of state and shoot your big ones. I will stay here and teach my kids how to get it done right here in good ol MN.

[DaveT]

Don't expect to see a big buck every time you enter the woods.

Stop comparing reality to what you are seeing on TV.

I would be happy to see one big buck a year in MN. That would be a vast improvement over what I've been seeing for the last 5 years or so.

I'm comparing MN to the reality of the property I have hunted and do hunt in other states.

Somebody tell the guys in Ripley that they're too far north to grow big bucks.

[kern]

This is just my observation and not directed at anyone. Certain hunters will never be happy for any period of time. A few years back when intensive harvest came along, i know some people that would shoot every deer they saw. They had one or to years where the killed every thing that moved. They were the happiest hunters ever. The first year they killed 35 deer for 7 people and the next they killed 19 or so. The third year, this guy had the nerve to say it was the dnr's fault when they didn't see a deer, REALLY? Just because it is legal doesn't mean you should kill every deer in sight. Also it shouldn't take the goverment stepping in to tell us what to do if you know what you want done on your land. If you own private land, 100+ acres is more than enough to grow some quality deer if that is what you want. It just takes time. I know quite a few "trophy" hunters that have no problem filling other peoples tags with small bucks as long as they still can keep their tag for a "trophy". There comes a time when you have to step up and do the right thing in your own eyes without it being mandated by the DNR. As for party hunting, that is what it is for myself, a party. There has been quite a few years where I would be done hunting with bow and never step foot in the woods for slug season. I would have missed ALOT of memories with my family that I now cherish. Seriously guys, we are losing kids to video games and every day some group is trying to stop hunting period and all we can do is fight amongst ourselves? MN is not as bad as people make it sound. Does it take a little work, sometimes but in the end it is the memories that count.

[Gordie]

Well put kern to bad not everyone feels this way

[goblueM]

+2 kern

[Surface Tension]

I could tell you stories from the 70s and 80s where you'd be lucking to see one deer the whole season.

It was a big deal to see a dead deer on the side of the road.

Bucks only and there wasn't a such thing as a doe permit.

You guys in the South had all the deer.

Now deer are all over the place.

I guess wanting to micro manage the herd means we're in good times.

Things could very easily be be a lot worse.

[DaveT]

I'm willing to allow that people need to institute their own management strategies on the property they control to get what they want out of their hunts. However, until party hunting is stopped that is virtually impossible. I can pass up a hundred yearlings every year but it does me no good if they all get shot as soon as they step over onto the neighbor's.

That was the first point I made in my post but just about everybody has skipped that point except for Kern, who I politely disagree with. It's entirely possible that by doing away with party hunting we wouldn't need any of the rest of these APRs or earn a bucks or moved seasons.

Let me try to break down the Iowa comparison in a way that will make some sense, hopefully.

Let's say each state has a hundred deer

In MN we have 30 antlered bucks. Of those, 25 are yearlings, 4 are 2 year olds, and 1 is a mature 3.5 plus year old. After our hunting season, we are left with 0 mature bucks, 1 2 year old which will be mature next year, and 4 yearlings that will be 2 next year. We will recruit 20 of this years buck fawns and next year we will be exactly where we are now.

In Iowa, or any great whitetail state of your choosing, I think it plays out like this.

They start with 35 bucks because their herd is better balanced. They're still recruiting the same amount of buck fawns as we are, so they have the same amount of yearling bucks, 25. But they have 7 2 year olds and 3 mature bucks. After their season, they kill 20 bucks just like we do, but because the harvest gets spread out a little bit more, they have 7 yearlings that will be next years 2 year olds, 3 2 year olds that will be next years mature bucks, and possibly 1 already mature buck, who will be on a magazine cover next year.

This is, in my opinion, pretty close to reality, but on a bigger scale. It would seem simple to get a few more bucks to their second and third birthdays, especially if guys were no longer allowed to shoot multiple bucks every year.

[james_walleye]

I love the argument that trophy hunters don't want to work hard for their deer. Yet the great irony is that any regulation implemented to make for more mature bucks means meat hunters might have to work harder for their deer. Which they obviously don't want to do.

Or how about "trophy hunters don't know the real meaning of hunting". It's about the hunt, deercamp, the comradery. Yet these same people who I guess do know the real meaning of hunting seem to have their day ruined when they have to let a forky walk by. Again, love the irony.

[shortfatguy]

Well I have to say I don't agree with all you said but I will say the party hunting for bucks needs to go. If they are going to have party hunting it should be for does only in the management and intensive harvest areas. That way people who can't shoot their own deer can still have someone else put meat in the freezer for them. The attitude of some people in Minnesota will never change and that is why I think we need laws in place to help them change. A party that hunts north of my area refuses to shoot a single doe. They shoot every buck that walks by and claim to see many more deer since they don't shoot does. I think they are probably right but the deer they see are all 1.5 yr old bucks and maybe an occasional 2.5 yr old that slipped by the year before. They party hunt with a large party and for the most part fill their tags. They even go so far as to apply for doe tags to keep someone else from getting one and shooting a doe.

In my opinion a healthy deer herd is one with close to an equal amount of does and bucks. I assume that most years there are as many doe fawns as buck fawns born. But every year I see many more does than bucks. I think the reason is the people shoot all of the bucks as soon as they grow an antler and polish it. If each hunter had to shoot his own buck this might help even it out a little.

[goblueM]

shortfatguy, not disagreeing with you per se... but IMO I think folks see a lot of does and small bucks because they are the stupidest deer out there.

Of course you are going to see more of the least-wary deer!

[DaveT]

I guess wanting to micro manage the herd means we're in good times.

Things could very easily be be a lot worse.

Making people shoot their own deer is micro managing? I'd just call it fair.

Things could very easily be a lot better.

[picksbigwagon]

I didn't see the state listed, but which states make cross tagging bucks illegal? which states make party hunting illegal? I know for an absolute fact Iowa doesn't....

[DaveT]

Picks

Kansas doesn't allow it, pretty sure MO doesn't, Iowa does, I guess. Apparently a firearms season after the rut is enough to offset the damage done by allowing party hunting.

[picksbigwagon]

Thanks DaveT, I have come around to the idea of moving the season out of the rut since I have seen what it does in Iowa. Not sold on the cross tagging or party hunting part of it yet, enforcement would be incredibly expensive and incredibly tough to enforce....

[Surface Tension]

Micro managing.

Lets try piling on regulations to an outdoor activity.

And for what, because some aren't satisfied with their hunt and other hunters making their own choice on what deer that harvest?

For Gods Sake Man, the deer in MN are thicker then rats but that isn't good enough.

Out of the 400,000 bucks that make it through the gantlet please tell me the ages of those deer.

You don't know and neither does the DNR.

Ride the wave now because we can't go up in numbers but they srue will go down.

[DaveT]

I don't think enforcement would be much of an issue. Most guys are law abiding and would follow the law, some are going to break it but when they realize they can't go to work and brag about shooting 3 or 4 bucks because someone might turn them in, the fun will go out of it for them. It'll take a few years but it will make everyone's hunt better.

Imagine being in a camp where one 15 year old boy or girl is trying to kill his or her first buck. The other 5 hunters in camp are tagged out but still hunting hard to fill that last tag. Poor kid, every gun shot they hear might mean their season is over. How much fun can that kid be having?

Imagine being in the same camp, same situation, except now those 5 hunters are trying their best to get that kid his or her deer. Encouraging them every morning, giving up the best stands, making drives, etc., all in an effort to help that last tag get filled. Instead of an anxiety filled hunt with unnecessary pressure, you have a fun hunt with everybody working together for the common good. What's more Minnesotan than that?

[BRULEDRIFTER]

Imagine being in the same camp, same situation, except now those 5 hunters are trying their best to get that kid his or her deer. Encouraging them every morning, giving up the best stands, making drives, etc., all in an effort to help that last tag get filled. Instead of an anxiety filled hunt with unnecessary pressure, you have a fun hunt with everybody working together for the common good. What's more Minnesotan than that?

Too bad you must have grown up in such a ruthless deer camp, cuz in the PARTY I grew up hunting with, the above scenario is how we have and always will fill the youngsters, or anyones tag! Quit being delusional!

[BRULEDRIFTER]

But, in the party and area I grew up hunting in, the idea of limiting out has never even come close to happening. However, on quite a few occasions the younger, more mobile and agile hunters tend to fill some of the old timers tags so that the whole group can have a good supply of venison for the year. And THAT is what party hunting should truly be about!

[nonteepical]

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[Jameson]

...Imagine being in the same camp, same situation, except now those 5 hunters are trying their best to get that kid his or her deer. Encouraging them every morning, giving up the best stands, making drives, etc., all in an effort to help that last tag get filled. I..., you have a fun hunt with everybody working together for the common good. What's more Minnesotan than that?

Almost, almost all the deer camps I've been a part of, or heard of ARE that way. Most youth tags get filled in lotto areas not because of people breaking the law and filling those tags for the youths, but because we put them in the best stands. At least that has been my experience.