Opener date

[ANYFISH2]

Harvey, you don't have to beat a dead horse. You presented one potential option to better our buck hunting oportunities. This started a great converstaion. Then I started the oppositon, just different thoughts. We are all different, nobody is going to agree completely.

I may have been wrong the other day when I stated I would loose two members of my party with a later date. I asked them yesterday during the football game about this topic, both said It wouldn't matter to them, they just wouldn't spent the same hours out in the cold mornings, if there were any.

For the record I would not be against moving the season, APR's, or a buck lottery(I really like this idea), FOR MYSELF. I will however defend those whom do not want to be told what they can shoot(I know this is not what you are getting at). It is hunting, a tradition, we have grown into through generations of hunting in MINNESOTA. It of course will be different than other states, but that doesn't make it wrong, it just makes it ours.

[Getanet]

Wisc does not seem to have any issues with a loss of hunters with the later season. I do not believe they are that much warmer than MN. Iowa also has a very late season I believe into Jan and they also have plenty of hunters looking for deer. I realize Iowa is warmer but not that much from thier Jan to our November.

If people want to go, they will as they do in other states. The facts have proven that.

Harvey, I don't think you have the right facts. While I'm sure there are many reasons for it, WI is indeed facing a reduction in hunters:

http://www.thenorthwestern.com/article/2...h-offset-losses

"The (WI) Department of Natural Resources and state Legislature have focused several initiatives in recent years on encouraging more young people to hunt by introducing mentored hunting programs and changing laws to allow younger hunters...

A University of Wisconsin-Madison study released in February showed the number of hunters in Wisconsin could drop 34 percent by 2030. Hunting license sales for adults have dropped for several years and the DNR has seen a significant drop in the number of 15-year-old to 19-year-old hunters, Warnke said.

[mntatonka]

I guess I have to ask, how many book bucks have you shot to date. Pictures would be great.

If you have not harvested any, just maybe what I suggested may increase ones odds with more larger bucks in the woods.

What difference does that make? Why should hunting be about who shot the deer with the biggest antlers? Shouldn't it be about having fun and being out in the woods with your friends and family? Why should the size of the antlers matter one darn bit? Or for that matter, why should it matter if you even got a deer, as long as you enjoyed yourself?

[surewood]

MN won't be making any real changes anytime soon. Slowly more people are passing up shooting young bucks. Times are changing. People are slowly starting to keep it simple. You want to shoot a mature deer don't shoot them when they're young. Still a long way away but someday I believe I'll see the majority swing the other way. I get that any deer can be a thrill, but for me trying to apply everything I know about mature deer and finally bag one finishes second to none. I do this with my friends and family and we have the same good memories as a so called meat hunter. My attitude about the "meat hunter" is that I've been called a trophy hunter. Then I asked the question, if a spike and a ten pt. were standing next to each other which one would you shoot? Of course the answer was a ten by the so called meat hunter. I said why that spike will taste alot better I'm no more of a trophy hunter then you. Although anyone who asked me about hunting I would encourage harvesting a doe and mature Buck I don't talk down to someone who shot a fork. Harvey I'd be all for a week later and a week shorter where I live. People call this complaining, I think were communicating about important topics. Why else would it bother so many people that pages on this forum have been about it. One more thing. Although kids love bagging any deer, but have you saw a kid with his hands on a big Buck. That's hunter retention. Fever for life. Just random pieces of my opinion take it easy on me.

[picksbigwagon]

$$$ and population density........that is the answer, if we didn't have half a million people out deer hunting in MN, we would see more deer. IF people (no matter where they are from) weren't running to houston county, renting land at 2-3000 bucks for 80 acres of woods, if people weren't snatching up hunks of land in Allamakee county and and clayton counties in Iowa, driving the land prices to 16k bucks an acre, our "taint" season (I loved that post by the way) wouldn't turn into this every year.

I was just thinking today eating lunch, moderating forums during my lunch, that this tiant season is going pretty well, NOPE........

I was against all QDM practices three years ago. Iowa, Wisconsin and in fact no upper midwest states (with the exception of a small corner of Missouri and zone 3 in MN) have no major QDM recommendations which shows me that if these other states have no special QDM regs that hunting season must be the strong common denominator. I hunt in Iowa, dubuque county, I was there what would have been the second weeked of deer season in MN. Bucks were just starting to run does, middle of the day, they were eary targets. First weekend of December is my weekend to deer hunt, will it be cold , yep, but I know that and I think it helps the deer population in Iowa. I think moving the MN hunt out of the rut, make it a 9 day season, starting the weekend before Thanksgiving and the weekend after would be a good step in the right direction. Kids would only miss maybe 3 days of school, allowing for a little easier sell of spending the week at deer camp.

[picksbigwagon]

Part two: "the Moola" I blame the drury brothers, lee and tiffany, and every other hunting TV show that pays big sums of money to hunt these farms in Iowa or Kansas. Private farms that are managed for da big buck, but the state of Iowa or Kansas doesn't follow a strict QDM philosophy. Private land strategies for game management cannot happen at a state level with out a huge increase in taxes, I am not sure about you but I pay enough in taxes right now. Manitbo has their hunting season when? those deer sure seem big, but of course population density is a lot less up there.

Move the seasons, I finally agree with it......

[SandPoint]

Quote:

I guess I have to ask, how many book bucks have you shot to date. Pictures would be great.

If you have not harvested any, just maybe what I suggested may increase ones odds with more larger bucks in the woods.

Quote:

[/quote']

Harvey I am the guy who doesnt have all the time or money but still lives to deer hunt. But thanks for showing me what is important,"book deer" I guess.

[Big Dave2]

Then I asked the question, if a spike and a ten pt. were standing next to each other which one would you shoot? Of course the answer was a ten by the so called meat hunter. I said why that spike will taste alot better I'm no more of a trophy hunter then you.

I've heard this arguement plenty of times and I call B.S.!

The ultimate goal of a meat hunter is to put a little venison in the freezer. If you can shoot a larger antlered deer in the process, it's just a bonus. That doesn't make him a trophy hunter, it just means that he is human and would like to put 1 set of antlers on his wall for proper home decoration.

It's like comparing deer hunting to bowling. You could probably win a lot of matches with a 250 average but getting a 300 now and then sure would be sweet. It's like icing on the cake. Now if I were so fixated on rolling 300 games that I would not except a win unless I rolled a 300, that would be the attitude of a trophy hunter.

[PurpleFloyd]

I hunt the corn belt south of Mankato and moving the season later here would more than likely do much more harm than good. Once the corn is out most of the cover is gone and the deer are easier to find. Throw in a later season with a higher chance of fresh snow and the deer would get hammered.

If you want less deer taken move the season to the week before pheasant opener so there is an abundance of corn in the field and go back to a two day season. Besides, then the deer season won't cut two weeks out of my pheasant season.

I guess in the end while it is neat to hake a big deer I am not going to get so bent out of shape about it that my season gets ruined if I don't see one. I take whatever deer the good lord sees fit to send my way and I am happy with it no matter how Inferior some elitist might thi k it is.

Sausage is the great equalizer in the end and makes them all taste yummy.

[john skarie]

Quality deer to me are the ones that taste better.

You can't eat horns.

I would have to say the 90% of the "big" racks shot are done so because of luck, not because of someone being a skilled hunter.

That's why most people don't see the big ones, except when they look at thier cameras.

But I guess to some you can never make it easy enough to shoot the big ones. You can also never be satisfied if someone else's is bigger.

To bad, hunting should be about the thrill of putting your own food on the table. That after all is why humans hunted, to eat, not to brag.

The tradition of hunting has morphed from one of survival into one of entertainment, which isn't all bad, but we shouldn't forget what it is really about.

JS

[harvey lee]

mntatonka

The point I was trying to make with the poster in regards to how many larger bucks has he shot is this, if he wants to shoot one and has not to this date, maybe by changing a few things his idds would be better for him to get a bigger buck if he would like too. That's all, nothing about he is less if he has not or nothing about that is what it is all about.

We all have different reasons for going hunting.

Buckkiller, you know what you statted and now trying to turn things around is childish. But as usual, you will do it for the sake of an arguement.

John, I agree 100% that one cannot eat a rack. In the last 6-7 years, the majority of what I have shot is 1.5 year old does. If you understand my post or suggestion, I am looking to try and increase rack size. You stated I am looking to make it easier, no, in essense, I would be making it harder to hunt a bigger buck out of the rut season.

About rack size, I could care less if another shoots one larger than I. Where do you come up with your statements?

I sometimes do not understand why some believe that if a person likes to chase larger bucks that then we have to go off on the we cant eat bucks or thats all they want is a large rack.

Not true at all. I love my venison for the table and have for 50 years. But, I like to enjoy chasing a bigger buck from time to time also.

In regards to Wisc or any other state losing numbers, I am sure they are as the younger kids today are not going for numerous reasons. What I was stating in that post was Wisc has not lost huge numbers of hunters due to the later season. I was trying to explain that one can go to a later date without losing the hunters we have now. Yes, there could be a few but those could have been ready to quit anyways.

Again, the point I am trying to make is this, if they were to change to a later date, Big Dave, RH1 and all the others, you could still shoot what you want and where you want. It would not change your deer harvest for the worst at all. Hopefully better.

[harvey lee]

Quality deer to me are the ones that taste better.

You can't eat horns.

I would have to say the 90% of the "big" racks shot are done so because of luck, not because of someone being a skilled hunter.

That's why most people don't see the big ones, except when they look at thier cameras.

But I guess to some you can never make it easy enough to shoot the big ones. You can also never be satisfied if someone else's is bigger.

To bad, hunting should be about the thrill of putting your own food on the table. That after all is why humans hunted, to eat, not to brag.

The tradition of hunting has morphed from one of survival into one of entertainment, which isn't all bad, but we shouldn't forget what it is really about.

JS

I would agree that a young doe is much better tablefare than an old stinky buck. No one would argue that.

Noone is asking to make it easier to shoot a larger buck. With what I propossed, it woould make it more diffucult by moving it out of the rut. Not sure what you even meant by your statement.

By proposing this, I highly doubt that I have forgot what it is all about.

I go every season with the same fellows and we have done this for years. My son and familty members go and yes, we do shoot does to enjoy for tablefare. 90% of what I shoot by means of archery, rifle, shotgun or muzzleloader are does.

Very simply, I also like to shoot and chase larger bucks, shame on me for that.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

First weekend of December is my weekend to deer hunt, will it be cold , yep, but I know that and I think it helps the deer population in Iowa. I think moving the MN hunt out of the rut, make it a 9 day season, starting the weekend before Thanksgiving and the weekend after would be a good step in the right direction.

The problem with that in the northern part of the state is I've seen over a foot of snow and some very cold temperatures by Thanksgiving weekend.

I really don't mind the way the season is set up in MN. If I had my preference, I'd like to see a shorter archery season with a one week muzzleloading season falling in between the archery season and the rifle season. Maybe start the archery season about the 2nd week in October with the muzzleloader season starting the first week in November followed by 2 weeks of rifle season. I also like the way they do it in Colorado with the trophy zones and preference points for the trophy zones.

[john skarie]

My post wasn't a personal attack on you Harvey, my statements were regarding how I see deer hunting and deer hunters in general.

We have a better opportunity now to shoot more deer and bigger bucks than anytime in the last 40 years.

With the technology we have, (cameras, scents, warm clothes etc.) hunting is easier than ever before. Yet hunters are still not satisfied unless laws can make it easier to shoot the big one??

We can regulate ourselves, and manage our deer with common sense.

I think some people are relying to much on tech stuff, and forgetting how to realy hunt.

JS

[surewood]

Bigdave, your just proving my point. Hunters want to shoot bigger bucks. My problem was as I'm no different other then I pass on small deer. Because of that I'm called a trophy hunter. That it's all about the rack. It's about the thrill of taking a smarter deer by applying your skills. It's the rush. I call meat hunting [PoorWordUsage] for the most part. You can get some pretty good cuts of meat with all the money you spend on hunting. It's about the thrill, family, friends, and memories. I do the same thing as anyone else just prefer mature deer like anyone else. Just tired of people giving me the business when I say I passed on a fork or young 8. Like many things I do in my life I like to progress forward. Take on more challenges. Set higher goals. In any other facet of my life most people see that as a positive and growing part of your life, maturity. But with deer I take on a new challenge and people turn their nose up. Just like people don't want to be criticized for shooting a fork I don't want to be for passing on them either. That's all that statement meant. I know many don't have those feeling, but I ran into more then I thought I would which gives me a sour attitude.

[harvey lee]

Totally agree with you surewood.

I do believe we can have the deer hunting where it can work for all if we each are willing to give a little here and there for the better of all.

[harvey lee]

My post wasn't a personal attack on you Harvey, my statements were regarding how I see deer hunting and deer hunters in general.

We have a better opportunity now to shoot more deer and bigger bucks than anytime in the last 40 years.

With the technology we have, (cameras, scents, warm clothes etc.) hunting is easier than ever before. Yet hunters are still not satisfied unless laws can make it easier to shoot the big one??

We can regulate ourselves, and manage our deer with common sense.

I think some people are relying to much on tech stuff, and forgetting how to realy hunt.

JS

I agree alot with what you say John but what I do not agree with.

What I might propose for a new law in changing the opener is not going to make it easier to shoot a larger buck, in fact to some degree it will make it more diffucult as one would not be able to hunt the larger bucks during the rut when it is the easiest time of the year. Thats when the big boys can be caught making a mistake.

Moving the season out of the rut may give the larger bucks a better chance to survive and then one would have to hunt smarter or harder to harvest that same buck. Hopefully it would allow for some deer to get a bit larger in terms of the rack.

I would agree that with trail cameras and other tech equipment, it has allowed the hunters to enjoy a bit more luck.

Another option that would work would be to only allow so many buck tags per zone but I kinow that would never fly. Thats why I suggested to place the opener later. Everyone could still harvest what they would like without having to go without a buck tag every so often.

Yes, it possibly could be a bit colder during the hunt with a later opener and up north it could be a bit of an issue for getting around with early heavy snow. Might be one could have 2 different zones for opener dates but I would guess that would never fly either.

This is no different as stated early by me about these changes. When they went to slot limits or dropped the limit on panfish, some were fine with this and others still wanted to take a bigger limit.

I also realize that there is next to no possible way to make everyone happy be it a fishing or hunting law change as we all at times are looking for something different.

I would also agree that the hunting is good overall statewide and yes there are areas that get a bit tougher from year to year due to weather. That will never change. I am just trying to see if we could make it better for all. yes, even for those who would like to see more of the big boys.

[slimngrizzly]

I agree with you 100% surewood and I understand what you are saying. I think you explain it well.

I dont mean to come off as arrogant, as my last statement probably did come off as (apologize)... Call it QDM or call it something different... I think making changes such as moving the season back would help the age structure of the herd in the long run and the buck/doe ratio without "taking" opportunity from anyone. I personally believe that change along with a few others would be a good thing.

[Big Dave2]

Bigdave, your just proving my point. Hunters want to shoot bigger bucks. My problem was as I'm no different other then I pass on small deer. Because of that I'm called a trophy hunter. That it's all about the rack. It's about the thrill of taking a smarter deer by applying your skills. It's the rush. I call meat hunting [PoorWordUsage] for the most part. You can get some pretty good cuts of meat with all the money you spend on hunting. It's about the thrill, family, friends, and memories. I do the same thing as anyone else just prefer mature deer like anyone else. Just tired of people giving me the business when I say I passed on a fork or young 8. Like many things I do in my life I like to progress forward. Take on more challenges. Set higher goals. In any other facet of my life most people see that as a positive and growing part of your life, maturity. But with deer I take on a new challenge and people turn their nose up. Just like people don't want to be criticized for shooting a fork I don't want to be for passing on them either. That's all that statement meant. I know many don't have those feeling, but I ran into more then I thought I would which gives me a sour attitude.

I don't see anyone here criticizing you or anyone else for passing on smaller deer. If that is what you want to do then more power to you, I applaude your efforts. The criticism comes when people propose changing opener dates, APRs and other measures that force the horn porn phillosophy onto all other hunters. I don't see anyone trying to force you into shooting deer you don't want to shoot, but I do see those who are trying to keep others from shooting the deer that they DO want to shoot.

[reinhard1]

i dont know if it was suggested before but how about the second weekend in November instead of the first. that wouln't bother me at all. and for the late opener guy's why not take up further challenges and go muzzeloader season. i dont know if everyone will ever be happy regardless of the seasons opening. to those who love the challenge of the big rack i am all for you. to those who want to bring home some venison that's fine too. for those who want changes, join hunting clubs and lobby the leglislature or go to DNR area meetings for input. in my opinion we cant have the same regs for the entire state. i think the DNR is looking at every area of the state and determins what's appropriate for that area. they are trying to serve all the hunters as best as they can in my opinion. next year i'm going muzzy hunting also. good luck.

[john skarie]

Properly managing a deer herd is not about having bigger racks.

When the majority of hunters will not shoot does 'cause they want to hang horns it's a problem.

That is why other states have buck draws, to ensure that does are being shot.

Hunters should be more worried about the ecology of the deer herd than the horn sizes IMHO.

As far as meat-hunters being [PoorWordUsage], don't even know how to respond to that.

The idea that a hunter can't enjoy the thrill of hunting unless they shoot a "trophy" is just nonsense, and a sad statement.

The tradition of hunting revolves around providing meat for the table, plain and simple. To say that those who are satisfied to shoot deer for meat should just go buy some is missing the whole point of being an outdoorsman that appreciates hunting and fishing for what they are, a natural thing that is apparently lost on many.

JS

[harvey lee]

Big Dave

I do not see where what I was proposing would change anything in regards to what you like to harvest. I never said in my proposal that there would be any APR's.

I did propose the opener to change anything you have harvested in the past or the future. I do not see how this would change what you like to harvest.

[harvey lee]

Properly managing a deer herd is not about having bigger racks.

When the majority of hunters will not shoot does 'cause they want to hang horns it's a problem.

That is why other states have buck draws, to ensure that does are being shot.

Hunters should be more worried about the ecology of the deer herd than the horn sizes IMHO.

As far as meat-hunters being [PoorWordUsage], don't even know how to respond to that.

The idea that a hunter can't enjoy the thrill of hunting unless they shoot a "trophy" is just nonsense, and a sad statement.

The tradition of hunting revolves around providing meat for the table, plain and simple. To say that those who are satisfied to shoot deer for meat should just go buy some is missing the whole point of being an outdoorsman that appreciates hunting and fishing for what they are, a natural thing that is apparently lost on many.

JS

I do not believe in any way the the majority of the deer hunters out there do not shoot does so they can harvest a large rack. If that were fact, those laws would have already been changed.

I have not seen a post where someone stated you cannot have a successful season by not harvesting a trophy. Maybe they would like that for a successful season but I do not see them pushinmg that on the general public nor does the proposal I made.

The tradition of hunting does revolve around providing meat for the table but that can include a trophy if the hunter so desires.

I am also concerned about the ecology of the deer and I simply would like to see a few more larger racked deer.

[harvey lee]

Maybe I should rephase what I proposed in the original post.

What would it hurt if we moved the opener date back a few weeks to get out of the main rut for the rifle-shotgun opener?

It would not say that all deer hunters could still not harvest the same deer they have always harvested so nothing would change there.

It would hopefully allow some of the bucks with the better genes to live a few more years to grow a larger rack.

It would not place any APR on anyone. It would make it a bit harder to harvest some bucks as one could not have the bucks running and thowing caution to the wind. So, it could possibly increase the buck herd to some degree by that is only my guess with no statistic to prove that.

Yes, in the northern areas, it could possible be a bit colder and some more snow could be on the ground. One may have to make an exception to the top 1/5 of the state in regards to the opener date.

Wisc and some other states have later openers and all still hunt if they wish too. yes, some numbers have gone down but I believe that is from the younger generation not starting to deer hunt for numerous reasons.

So, in conclusion, everyone gets to harvest what they like as always and some may have a better chnace at a trophy if they so choose.

What would be so wrong with that?

[B. Amish]

What would it hurt if we moved the opener date back a few weeks to get out of the main rut for the rifle-shotgun opener?

it would hurt my gun hunting a lot. by thanksgiving, our land is void of deer. they move on to bigger and better habitat. i believe many hunters would be in the same boat.