New retractable roof stadium in Arden Hills

[LMITOUT]

Good riddance.

Just goes to show that the only reason they exist is due to a business decision, not because they like the state of Minnesota. If they were truly the "home town club" we all would like to think they are, they'd pony up the cash on their own without the assistance of the taxpayers.

But the truth of the matter is they are a business just like any other, and would just as soon pack up and leave to go to a more business friendly location and leave the fans in the dust if they have to make that choice.

And here we are crying because the state won't give the Vikings, a private business, money to stay??? Are you serious???

It's called extortion, people, not loyalty to their fans.

[ANYFISH2]

I fully understand the point of giving a business owner tax money. In a perfect world we shouldn't have to. The fact is, if we don't build it for them (contribute) someone somewhere (LA?) will. So as a business, why wouldn't you leave to get what you want? Obviously "we" as the fans/state don't value them as much as someplace else then. I will gladly contribute to the new stadium, although I will probably never go to a game, because I value the Vikings. It adds to my value of life, I truely enjoy watching them.

As far as the states share in this proposal the infrastructer should solely be the states responsiblity, those roads NEED restructering already this just accelerates the job, the state is just looking for someone to pay for what we already pay taxes for.

Limt, are you not always talking about keeping business here in minnesota, and that the state doesn't do enough to keep jobs here. Well now you are saying "good riddance" to thousands of jobs and millions in tax money created by the Vikings? That just doesn't sound like you.

[Scott K]

Lmit is anti Vikings, so anything that would better the Vikings, he is against. A typical cheesehead!

[LMITOUT]

Limt, are you not always talking about keeping business here in minnesota, and that the state doesn't do enough to keep jobs here. Well now you are saying "good riddance" to thousands of jobs and millions in tax money created by the Vikings?

Well, they can have the jobs and the tax money if they play in the MetroDome too.

If the complaint is not enough revenue from luxury suites, then Ziggy can invest some of his cash to improve the Dome or pay for a new stadium to capture said revenue. You know that old saying: It takes money to make money? Well, don't take MY money to make HIM money.

No, I'm not anti Vikings. I've said it before, but I have no problem with a new stadium as long as it's paid for voluntarily, such as racino revenues.

Extortion is not "Minnesota Nice", but then again, Ziggy isn't from here and could care less as long as the money keeps flowing his direction and that's something that people need to keep in mind here...he could care less about you, the fan, if he can make more money elsewhere.

[Steve Foss]

It's called extortion, people, not loyalty to their fans.

Agreed 100%.

You know why it goes on? Because we allow it. It's our stupid pride, and our silly fear that the owners of our sacred pro sports team will pull up stakes and move the team that puts the taxpaying sports fan over a barrel. Our elected representatives have shown they'd rather make a greasy deal than stand up for principle, and that's largely because so many sports fans end up screaming at them to keep our team here, wherever "here" happens to be.

The only way to reverse it is for folks to rise up and tell their elected people to make no such deals with the taxpayers' money. All across the country. No exceptions. You think if everyone says no that the pro sports team owners will dissolve the franchises? Nahhhhhhh.

Never gonna happen now. We lost that battle when the first state legislature said OK to those sweet deals.

The new Vikings stadium isn't the first thing that the Legislature will end up using my tax money to finance against my wishes, and it won't be the last.

At least my Packers will have a cooler place to play when they face the Vikes on the road, if/when it gets done.

[LMITOUT]

....or they could do what California did and pass a law that says no public money will be spent on a private facility, such as a stadium.

[Steve Foss]

....or they could do what California did and pass a law that says no public money will be spent on a private facility, such as a stadium.

In Minnesota's case, I think that would be a big row of nails in the coffin. Not many pro teams are gonna walk away from San Francisco or L.A. if they don't get that public gift, but Minnesota? Yeah, they'd happily go elsewhere. The public "NO" has to happen pretty much everywhere.

[hugonian1]

The reality is virtually all big development deals, big business developments, industrial park development, mall development, entertainment venues, etc, etc, etc, happen with some level of public participation. Big business very seldom builds or expands without it.

This is not unique to sports teams/ owners.

Although it does not seem like it now with the Minnesota sports slump we are in, these teams add value to our community beyond financial. I like being part of a major league city.

I don't know what the private/ public ratio should be but some level public participation needs to happen.

Gee look at the Twins. They went from immanent contraction to having a first class venue that has transformed a large area of downtown Minneapolis.

Look at hockey. Let the North Stars go. A few years later it takes a much larger investment to get hockey back. New arena gets built. All at a much higher price tag than if the State and the Stars would have worked thru the issues.

Let's just get this deal done.

[Steve Foss]

Hugonian, there's no doubt your perspective is pragmatic and logical. Absolutely.

To me, it's a matter of priorities. Where should our tax dollars go? Where shouldn't they go? That's always the rub. What bugs me the most is so many in politics seem to think it's OK to write checks willy nilly with our tax dollars. I"ve seen it over and over and over again. I got a BIG problem with that.

And when we are in very hard economic times, these kinds of deals get a lot more scrutiny than usual, and a larger number of taxpayers are likely to balk.

Here's what I wonder. Obviously, it's a rhetorical question since it'll never happen, but bear with me. What would happen to our precious country if millionaires and billionaires didn't have tax dollars funneled to them by politicians as a grandiose economic development measure? I don't mean tax breaks for the wealthy, or any of that IRS stuff. I mean Congress and state legislatures using taxpayer dollars to make sweetheart deals.

What would happen if all that went away? Could our capitalist economy survive without constant shots of taxpayer adrenaline, or would we have an economic heart attack?

Hmmmnmn.

[Shack]

Quote:

It's called extortion, people, not loyalty to their fans.

OK back. Just can not stand seeing false positives being spewed in a form of a weak scare tactic. For example the above. Extortion? Where is the illegal act in all this? News flash! It is well and openly known the NFL and its franchises are in it to make money and not for a public service. Saying this is extortion is like saying the US Government extorts it's citizens by having to pay taxes.

Smoke and Mirrors boys. Smokes and mirrors!

[LMITOUT]

Do I need to post the definition of 'extortion' for you too?

[PurpleFloyd]

The govt doesn't threaten to pack up and leave if we do not fund it.

On second thought...................

[Steve Foss]

Quote:

Extort

1.

a. to wrest or wring (money, information, etc.) from a person by violence, intimidation, or abuse of authority; obtain by force, torture, threat, or the like.

b. to take illegally by reason of one's office.

2. to compel (something) of a person or thing: Her wit and intelligence extorted their admiration.

If the Big Bad Wilf threatens to huff and puff and take your cherished team to another state if you don't publicly fund a new stadium, and you cough up the money, that indeed fits one of the definitions of extort/extortion.

[PurpleFloyd]

They have not threatened to do it themselves but it has been done as far back as when Red had the team and through alternate channels like the commissioner and nearly every media source there is.

[Rick]

To me, it's a matter of priorities. Where should our tax dollars go? Where shouldn't they go? That's always the rub. What bugs me the most is so many in politics seem to think it's OK to write checks willy nilly with our tax dollars. I"ve seen it over and over and over again. I got a BIG problem with that.

Dude, you and Lmit are a packer fans

[Rick]

Extort

1.

a. to wrest or wring (money, information, etc.) from a person by violence, intimidation, or abuse of authority; obtain by force, torture, threat, or the like.

b. to take illegally by reason of one's office.

2. to compel (something) of a person or thing: Her wit and intelligence extorted their admiration.

If the Big Bad Wilf threatens to huff and puff and take your cherished team to another state if you don't publicly fund a new stadium, and you cough up the money, that indeed fits one of the definitions of extort/extortion.

LOL, nice dance Steve,

but I see none of the things Wilf has done that fit the definition as you've given above. I've heard or seen "none" of the huff or puff, as you describe, from him. Maybe you have a factual quote from him that fits yours and Lmits extortion definition?

If you don't then it's all no more than creative word-smithing by a couple of Packer Backers

The media has spun it that way and we all pretty much assume it..but the extortion term is not based on any fact I've seen or heard from Ziggy?

I give you both credit for the negative rhetoric though. :cool

[LMITOUT]

Just one example of the Vikings extortion of the state:

Quote:

On Tuesday, voters in Industry, Calif., approved a bond on the ballot providing $150 million for infrastructure improvements at a 600-acre site where a stadium has been proposed.

As reported in the Minneapolis Star-Tribune, the team issued the following statement: "The Vikings are watching these developments with interest," said Lester Bagley, the team's vice president of public affairs and stadium development. "But we are currently focused on achieving a workable stadium plan to keep the Vikings here in Minnesota." This means they are focused on staying in Minnesota until they get the deal they want.

Have they ever come out and said they are moving? Nope. They also haven't said they're definitely staying, either, which is just shady and deceptive.

They keep dropping these hints which continue to fuel the speculation (read: extortion) and keep the kool-aid drinkers all whipped up like Shack, et al.

[Steve Foss]

Dude, you and Lmit are a packer fans

Thanks for pointing that out, just in case I forgot it since the Super Bowl.

On another note, I provided the definition of extortion so the info on the word is there for all to see. And pointed out that, if a couple of things happen it would be extortion. If those things haven't happened, it's not extortion. I don't know what Wilf has and has not said, mostly because I don't care enough about the Vikings to pay that much attention. I was not coming in on LMIT's side in the use of the word, though we've agreed on other things before. This seems so simple to me. Why does it seem complicated to others?

As for the durn public money issue, I'll sure say again that I'm not for using our money for this purpose in this economy. Probably that's at least partly because I don't care much about the Vikings. There are many thousands of other Minnesotans who don't give a rip about the Vikings, or any kind of football, and many of those people are against such expenditure. You don't have to be a Packers fan living in Minnesota to think this is a bad idea.

[soldoncass]

Nice to see the defination of extortion.....Looks like a case of "reaching for ANY excuse" to oppose bettering and keeping the Mn Vikings here.

If you go out to get gas, do you go to the cheapest place or a more expensive station???? I go to the cheapest place, as most people do. That is why the station owners COMPETE FOR YOUR BUSINESS. It's a supply and demand deal...just like a NFL team owner....they will go WHERE they're wanted more. That is WHY communities/ states compete for the few available teams. I want them HERE, so I support the Arden Hills deal. It is a GREAT location, and plan. It is NATURAL for competing areas/teams to try to derail anything GOOD FOR OUR TEAM.

[zepman]

I could care less what you Packer fans want to call it...JUST GET IT DONE!!!

A little extortion is good every now and then.

[FISHINGURU]

I can't wait to hear the tears fall when we get out new stadium.

[Surface Tension]

With the hard economic times we're in it is more reason to continue to move forward with a new stadium.

Think of it as a stimulus package but instead of being funded 100% by tax dollars. 400 million is coming out of the pockets of the Vikes owners. If you think of the jobs this will create it is a no brainer.

Do I think the citizens from MN should help fund a stadium for THEIR football team. Yes it is part of supporting a team.

When you and I look a dollar what do we see? For some its value is based on what it'll buy us and some what it will make us.

Now sit back and think of how many times that dollar is taxed.

New jobs = state, fed tax and money being exchanged inside MN and taxed.

New Money from outside MN being spent by folks coming to football games being spent and taxed.

If you live in MN you will directly or indirectly benefit from the increased money being exchanged and taxed inside our state.

That would be true if your for or against a new stadium.

Yes it takes money to make money.

Would MN stand to lose money of the team left?

Of coarse it would.

[LMITOUT]

I can't wait to hear the tears fall when we get out new stadium.

Does the light rail go to Los Angeles? You guys can cry all the way down and back to the new Farmer's Field stadium in LA.

Light rail...another waste of taxpayer dollars, or "stimulus" as we're now calling these frivolous projects apparently.

Next we'll be trotting out the children and the handicapped to extort more money from the citizens and play on their emotions...just like the dedicated fleecing, I mean funding, amendment.

[Steve Foss]

Well, I do understand all the sides to this argument, even though on this Vikings-dominated thread I'm considered a heretic.

If we're going to talk in solely economic/business terms rather than pride/emotion, I wonder how we'd respond to a Honeywell, 3M or Medtronic expectation of that many millions of taxpayer dollars to help build any of those companies a new facility because their current one is a little too old. I mean, if we're willing to pony up gazillions to keep the Vikings here, shouldn't we also be willing to spend at least as much on new facilities for the rest of the major corporations that employ scores of thousands of Minnesotans?

[Steve Foss]

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Here's a novel concept. How about you guys quit trying to justify the new stadium based on economics and just fess up and admit it's because you love your Vikings, and pro sports are the toystore of many grown men and women?

Hey, I even have a name for the new venue: Taxpayer Heartbreak Stadium.