New retractable roof stadium in Arden Hills

[PurpleFloyd]

*Mpls is sweating BIG TIME with the fact of actually loosing the Vikes (cheap as heck in the past. I.E. must rename to Minneapolis Vikings, NO city funds being used stance, No preparation holding out for the Vikes to flip the entire cost, Emergency release of a so called backup plan the other day, etc...). Not the entire state, but being cheap back then might have just cost Mpls huge. Now they have no money with only a $10 million offer on out of pocket on the table? Guess being cheap and frugal does pay???

*The State holding out for a cheaper and better deal and now it is costing them at least 3 times as much upfront. Not sure if the back end amount increased.

Fact is our state and its local governments and their constituents repeatedly gridlock out of pure cheapness. In the end we will figure out a way, as always though after the fact. Hence the state of procrastination.

What makes you think the state was holding out?

If I remember correctly the team signed a 40 year lease and that lease is not set to expire until this year, so why would they even think of helping to build a new stadium in past years when they already provided the team with everything they originally agreed on?

Look at how long the Twins played AFTER their lease had expired with the MSFC.

[B. Amish]

if the state gives me 20,000 to buy a new boat, i promise not to move to north dakota. if they don't give me 20,000 then they will lose out on my taxes. they'll recoup that 20,000 in only like 20 years with my taxes. it's a win win for everyone.

[PierBridge]

Next step is we move this thread to silly town....and then Shack may need some help becuase down der it's LMIT x 10.... ....but until then the score is Shack 4 the field 2....IMO...

[PurpleFloyd]

Next step is we move this thread to silly town....and then Shack may need some help becuase down der it's LMIT x 10.... ....but until then the score is Shack 4 the field 2....IMO...

Shack 4? Ha!

[LMITOUT]

I think he meant Fore!! As in, way out of bounds and off the reservation.

[Shack]

Should read more like "Shack Sweeps the Series".

LIMIT and PurpleFloyd are good stuff and most times I agree with they bring forward and commend the stuff they bring to the table. Just this time I do not, but understand their genuine fear related to the unknown.

Begs the question: Would we even be in this so called state of disarray with the state’s budget if this stadium deal had gone down like it should have years ago? The cash cow would have been mooin' by now and our state would be a collectin'. I certainly do not want to see this fail if passed and if the stats obviously displayed that it would be a failure, I would be siding with the haters here.

If anything could be gained by waiting as long as our state has, it has lead into a better facility being built and one for the longer haul. The Metrodome served its purpose, but it has been consider unprofitable (with un-tapped and lost profit) for at least a decade now. I feel the Arden Hills stadium will last all of 40 years without landing back to this situation now. The more I look into the AH location, who knows? I could even be working there. One thing I thought of yesterday was I could very well see my employer seeing involvement with the construction of the stadium. One of my customers I hooked up when I was in sales (still do when they call) was a sub in the construction Target Field. We did a bunch of water-jet custom work for the corporate suits witch involved some 3D alum and ss overlays for end caps for the private wet bars and corner seems in the bar areas. Each corporation who purchased a suite got to customize all the details to their liking.

This new stadium is just a win and win for everyone!

[LMITOUT]

Begs the question: Would we even be in this so called state of disarray with the state’s budget if this stadium deal had gone down like it should have years ago? The cash cow would have been mooin' by now and our state would be a collectin'.

How would they be "collectin'"? Are they planting magical money trees around this proposed stadium that those of us who live in reality land don't know about? If not, then a new stadium won't make a bit of difference to the state's budget other than to make it worse. Zip, zero, zilch.

[Shack]

I don't know LIMIT. Just have to use your bowl of goodness between your ears I guess. The pure attraction with a new stadium alone, even with the old proposals, would be bringing more out of towners than there is now our way to spend money which generates local and state sales revenue with hotels bookings, services being rendered and goods being bought. Those funds that would have gone to a new stadium (someone else can look up what the funds from 2002 and 2006 were used for in lue of a new stadium) would be in the process of being recouped as outlined and hence the "recoup", coming in a form of profits generated that are currently non-existent because the Dome does not have enough capabilities to capture them. I am sure many other ways, but who is counting?

Using the funds back then for a profitable venture, like a Vikings facility, would have used up funds which possibly went to Legacy type bills which have almost no/none return recoup or profit planning in them with the spent funds landing back in our states pocket. The money was their for a stadium. It was spent. Most likely on something that was non-profitable or even in operation today.

I know, I know! What if the Vikings defaulted with either never playing a game past game one or just defaulting on their end of the contract. Given their credit record with upholding their end of the Dome contract (never heard they defaulted or even came close), this analogy would fall into the category of one using smoke and mirrors to prove a point. Much like those who cry to kill tax increases, then flip to complaining about tax dollars being spent on a bill with a proven guarantee towards return and profit (Existing Dome/MN Fan Base still intact, plus given the reports provided and the track record with recently built stadiums within the last 20 years and their profits), then in the same breath they complain about deficit their state is in.

I just do not get how the stop spending, cut tax increases, lower taxes crowd expects the state to budget itself. Must be those magic trees? Or some kind of profit with have the whole cake to their selves and then eating it to?

How is the state supposed to generate funds, when no one wants to spend funds as an investment or pay a dime more in taxes?

[LMITOUT]

The pure attraction with a new stadium alone, even with the old proposals, would be bringing more out of towners than there is now our way spend money and generate local and state sales tax with hotels, services and goods.

[PurpleFloyd]

Should read more like "Shack Sweeps the Series".

LIMIT and PurpleFloyd are good stuff and most times I agree with they bring forward and commend the stuff they bring to the table. Just this time I do not, but understand their genuine fear related to the unknown.

Begs the question: Would we even be in this so called state of disarray with the state’s budget if this stadium deal had gone down like it should have years ago? The cash cow would have been mooin' by now and our state would be a collectin'. I certainly do not want to see this fail if passed and if the stats obviously displayed that it would be a failure, I would be siding with the haters here.

If anything could be gained by waiting as long as our state has, it has lead into a better facility being built and one for the longer haul. The Metrodome served its purpose, but it has been consider unprofitable (with un-tapped and lost profit) for at least a decade now. I feel the Arden Hills stadium will last all of 40 years without landing back to this situation now. The more I look into the AH location, who knows? I could even be working there. One thing I thought of yesterday was I could very well see my employer seeing involvement with the construction of the stadium. One of my customers I hooked up when I was in sales (still do when they call) was a sub in the construction Target Field. We did a bunch of water-jet custom work for the corporate suits witch involved some 3D alum and ss overlays for end caps for the private wet bars and corner seems in the bar areas. Each corporation who purchased a suite got to customize all the details to their liking.

This new stadium is just a win and win for everyone!

The stadium was only about 15 years old and the team was only about 15 years into a 30 year lease when they started begging for a new one. At that time the team could have built themselves a privately owned stadium for about 350 million dollars and they would have had sole ownership in the deal. They could have been milking that cash cow for well over a decade by now. But they had to make sure the state paid the lions share so now they are looking at paying over 400 million dollars, have lost double digit years of revenue, and still have to deal with the state.

The state had no reason and no business negotiating a new stadium when the team still had multiple years left on the lease they agreed to when the new one was built.

If the team would have put half the effort into a winning a SB that they have spent scheming to get the state to build them a new facility they very well could have won a few SB's by now but apparently that is a lower priority to them.

They could have also had a stadium built in Blaine if they would have stuck to the plan and not started to negotiate with MPLS and try to play the two communities against each other.

I will just end it by saying that I want them to have a new stadium in the state just like you do, but I do not see this plan as one that the team can generate enough revenue in to afford. If the plan had no roof ( preferably) or a fixed roof and a price tag about 40% lower than it is I could start to warm to it but there is no way that they will be able to build that facility as planned and operate it in the black. The numbers just don't add up.

Do you realize that this stadium they are proposing will cost more than the Lambeau and Soldier Field renovations combined?

[PurpleFloyd]

I don't know LIMIT. Just have to use your bowl of goodness between your ears I guess. The pure attraction with a new stadium alone, even with the old proposals, would be bringing more out of towners than there is now our way to spend money which generates local and state sales revenue with hotels bookings, services being rendered and goods being bought. Those funds that would have gone to a new stadium (someone else can look up what the funds from 2002 and 2006 were used for in lue of a new stadium) would be in the process of being recouped as outlined and hence the "recoup", coming in a form of profits generated that are currently non-existent because the Dome does not have enough capabilities to capture them. I am sure many other ways, but who is counting?

[Shack]

You guys.

Thanks for proving the Dome was a mistake. Saved me the time but we have (Yawn) gone over this a million times. After all is said and done, who walks away with the Dome structure and property? Any consideration of the sell off of the Dome or even the monies and profits for local and state with current site used as is or the building of another venue for what ever reason? Smoke and mirrors boys. Smoke and mirrors with large details missing. When "profitable" was used, it encompussed profits from outside the Dome walls since it was built. I will correct and say "profitable" as in any and all related monies earned for the state of Minnesota, in any corner of the world, that were had by hosting an NFL team here during the term of the contract with the Vikings during said time. NOT just ticket sales.

I will ask you, where do you get the info on your end that a new stadium will not generate more profit?

Speaking of ticket sales? The Dome used to sell out on its own. Once and a blue moon you would hear about TCF or Best Buy having to buy up seats to get the game on the television, but the last year it seems we came very close to not hitting the ticket sales mark to avoid the blacked out. This was occurring prior to their cruddy season being set in stone and of course the dome collapse. Even with Favre playing. Prior the ticket sales had been steadily climbing over the years:

Quote:

Season Total Capacity Change

1993 458,424 89% 1.1%

1994 474,744 93% 3.6%

1995 448,779 88% -5.5%

1996 449,944 88% 0.3%

1997 486,921 95% 8.2%

1998 510,741 100% 5%

1999 513,051 100% 0.45%

2000 513,394 100% 0.1%

2001 2002 2003 2004

513,344 512,517 513,417 512,969

2005 2006 2007 2008

511,960 509,743 506,046 506,136

2009 2010 2011 2012

510,203 470,009

Watching that Dome roof fall over and over again last winter IMHO is not setting the dome, even with a makeover, on pace with getting back on track. This brings up two points. One, the proof with ticket sales show the existing base the YES, would move from Mpls out to Arden Hills. It has been 15 years since the last time I went to "hang" out prior to a game and spend money outside the dome. Why? Because it is a depressing site and screwed up. With Vikes and Twins games I go to watch and avoid thinking of the experience, with an in and out of downtown as quick as possible (even prided myself on my escape routes) mentality. Even with the new train system I have just grown sick of dealing with that area during game day. I maybe the only one though?

Quote:

As I said before, the monies gained at the new site just means monies lost around the Dome area.

That is the idea with moving them.

I dig into some Target Field Stats to show how one season to the next, with a new venue of course, right here in MN can indeed spark interest here and abroad and generate record ticket sales, hotel bookings and the might dollar being spent.

You can put a silk hat on a pig if it makes ya feel better about yourself. The old school put some clean duck tape and spraying WD40 here and their approach ain't working with this state. We are shooting our selves in the foot and digging deeper wholes we will have to fill at some point. Not to mention looking the fools STILL as we did with the Vikings last season. The more I get back into this, the more I think of it taking this long with our state, I am looking actually looking forward to some 20/20 hind-site and crow eating after the current elected officials close the books once again right in the face of Goodell and The Vikes.

Honestly I am done.

You guys win. I am sorry for being foolish. Getting back into this made me realize why I enjoy an off season with football. I am thinking maybe our state needs a break as well (not). Couldn't hurt and according to LIMIT and PF, not building this stadium, with sincere honest no emotion involved I believe, this will lead the state of Minnesota into a utopia of recovery from the doom and gloom I guess is running rampant.

Just the whole deal and looking this stuff up is not void of coming across highlights (the mocking and laughing at us kind) of last season. I went like two(?) months without posting or even visiting in this forum after our horrible season last year. I didn't miss much. Just had enough and did not even want to be brought upto date on anything, draft, anything. I wanted to move forward but this carp just sucks a guy back into last season. Nothing against you guys what so ever, you guys are kewl with me and I respect your points. Our state on the other hand. Just ain't the state it used to be when the Dome was built. I just think Minnesota is not a prime player anymore and has lost that vanity generations prior had towards those looking in from other states. Maybe we are destine to become the third Dakota and a suburb of Iowa?

Plus I am going fishing in the morning (weather permitting) and this keeps taking away my fun time getting ready for a third time this evening. Bt I am done because this is becoming strangely repetitive, like deja vu and I avoid going in circles like this. A waste of time for everyone involved.

[LMITOUT]

That is the idea with moving them.

I dig into some Target Field Stats to show how one season to the next, with a new venue of course, right here in MN can indeed spark interest here and abroad and generate record ticket sales, hotel bookings and the might dollar being spent.

Apples to oranges.

Your stats show that the Vikings sold out (or close to) the Dome every game. This cannot be said for the Twins who played 10x the number of home games in the Dome. Sure, there was a bump in ticket sales when they moved to Target (because there was room for a bump), but as I said previously, unless this new Vikings stadium is much larger than the Dome which they are currently selling out, there will be no realized net gain. The Twins are already seeing a slump and tickets are practically being given away by ticket holders even though the paint is barely dry on the stadium. The bloom is off the rose already.

Loserville, USA.

[zepman]

You guys have WAY too much time on your hands...

[james_walleye]

Just build it. none of the other taxes I pay show a return in investmen and I certainly pay taxes for much more ridiculous things that I ever get to see results on. Of course lmit is going to be against a stadium. That would be something for a Viking fan to enjoy. That would be reality Reguarding him, everything else is a bit......smoke in mirrors.

[PurpleFloyd]

. After all is said and done, who walks away with the Dome structure and property? Any consideration of the sell off of the Dome or even the monies and profits for local and state with current site used as is or the building of another venue for what ever reason?

[FISHINGURU]

Just build it. none of the other taxes I pay show a return in investmen and I certainly pay taxes for much more ridiculous things that I ever get to see results on. Of course lmit is going to be against a stadium. That would be something for a Viking fan to enjoy. That would be reality Reguarding him, everything else is a bit......smoke in mirrors.

Exactly

[Born2Fish]

Yeah the big long posts with stats about this and about that practically mean nothing to me. As an avid Vikings AND Twins fan, all I really care about is watching them play ball. All I see is people comparing apples to oranges. Its one mans opinion vs another mans opinion....with a few facts thrown in for good measure. Not saying anyone is right or wrong, but once again, NONE of what ANY of us here say will have any bearing whatsoever on if a new stadium is built. Sure it might be fun to look up all these stats about the dome and why building a new stadium makes no sense. To me, the avid sporting fan, it makes perfect sense. It keeps the team I love to watch every Sunday here in Minnesota. Is Ziggy bound to make a boatload of money from this...Yep. Is Minnesota going to have to foot some of the bill...Yep. Does every Minnesotan like this idea...Nope. But if this keeps the team I have loved for over 30 years in MY home state, I am all for it. I will never get sick of singing this song at the top of my lungs when the vikes score.

Skol Vikings, let's win this game,

Skol Vikings, honor your name,

Go get that first down,

Then get a touchdown.

Rock 'em . . . Sock 'em

Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!

Go Vikings, run up the score,

You'll hear us yell for more. . .

V-I-K-I-N-G-S

Skol, Vikings, let's go!

[LMITOUT]

Think with your head, not your heart.

Not everybody is as passionate about the team as you or others are and don't want to foot the bill for a mega-millionaire...just so that he can make MORE money. It just don't make sense.

[Rick]

I prefer to think with my heart on this matter - thank you very much

[LMITOUT]

Please mail your stadium donation to:

Garden Commercial Properties

Attn: Zygmunt Wilf

820 Morris Turnpike

Short Hills, NJ 07078

(Make sure you put the word "SKOL" on the memo line)

[Steve Foss]

Think with your head, not your heart.

Uh, Earth to LMIT. Can you spot the logical contradiction in your statement?

[Rick]

Please mail your stadium donation to:

Uhhh LMIT, I already donate every time I pay taxes to satisfy everyone else's hearts desire.

[Born2Fish]

Yeah sorry, but this time I am all in with thinking with my heart. I am a 100% rube when it comes to the Minnesota Vikings. I can see the valid points on why people don't want this to happen. Not saying anyone is wrong with how they think. I just happen to think much differently. I want a football team in Minnesota for a very long time. I want to see them play in a new stadium. I have watched them play in the dome for much to long now. While it was always a great experience, watching them in a new stadium will be so much better. Just like watching the Twins play at Target Field compared to watching them in the dome. Someone has to make money, and it just so happens to be the man who owns the Vikings. Not much that can be done about that. When talking about giving money to another billionaire, think about all the money we all spend for Microsoft products, Apple products, the list goes on and on. Could we all do without our Xbox 360? Sure we could. But we choose to give our hard earned cash to billionaire Bill Gates. I know, not really the same thing, but it's along the same lines. I will stick by my word....SKOL VIKINGS!!

[FutbolGuru]

This deal is more than just about getting a new stadium... it's about keeping the Vikings and the NFL in Minnesota for another 30 years. If we don't get it done, so long NFL franchise. I hope to god the inept legislature currently running our state doesn't turn us into another one of the dakota's.