Agree or Disagree with pulling Slowey with the no hitter going?

[SDPROV]

I agree with what Gardy did but think he is in a no win situation no matter what he does! Since we are playing a game of what ifs here is another scenerio! He keeps Slowey in to go for the nohitter in the 8th. He walks the first guy and the next guy gets on by error! Still got a no hitter so by that rational(sp?) you don't pull him yet and the next guy hits a three run dinger(even more say he hit the next guy now its a four run dinger)! This was very close to what could have happened in the 7th! Now when they go on to lose the game you will have a ton of people(many of the same that wanted him to stay in) complaining "Geez Gardy why did you stay with him we needed that win!"! No win situation for a manager!

[SledNeck]

We don't go any higher in the standings with a no hitter. Individual accomplishment that credits the pitcher., but not the team. Doesn't hold a candle to a perfect game.

Gardy made the right call, except he shouldn't have put rauch in.

Zamboni, you may have been to young to remember, but gardy has coached the twins past the first round of the playoffs

[Duffman]

Slowey was on his last legs in the seventh, no way he would've been able to go two more innings, he was fading fast. It was the right call. Crisp had already stun the ball twice against him, I'm guessing he would have been the one to end Sloweys no hit bid had Slowey continued.

I knew Rauch would give it up, that was a given. The guy has just been grooving pitches for the hitters for a while now. It's the main reason we went out and got a new closer.

I'm with Pier, Gardy should win AL Manager of the year, he might even win it if we don't win the division, but that's a big DON'T. Like Kruk said on ESPN last night, they won the ballgame, why is this even an issue?

[PierBridge]

Would a no-hitter against Oakland even count? Talk about a bad hitting team. what did they have like 4 hits the last 2 games of the series.

Good to see the initial knee-jerk reactions squashed with some common sense reasons in here today!

Gardenhire/Twins Rock! End of discussion.

[harvey lee]

I will say this, how many managers could take a team like the Twins, and get to 1st place with the injuries they have had all season?

Gardy can coach and has proved it. He is in it for the long haul and not one no hit game.

Go Twins.

[Canon Guy]

I will say this, how many managers could take a team like the Twins, and get to 1st place with the injuries they have had all season?

Gardy can coach and has proved it. He is in it for the long haul and not one no hit game.

Go Twins.

Good point Harvey.

I believe the Twins have had 14 trips to the disabled list this year compared to just 4 for the White Sox,and look at how the Tigers tanked after a couple of injuries.

[Mudcutter]

I'm going to guess that all those who act like pitch counts matter, or that pulling Slowey was a no-brainer, haven't bothered to do even cursory research on the subject.

For those (if any) who care about finding out what the actual facts of the matter are, I would recommend Bill James' (yes, that Bill James - the father of modern sabermetrics) excellent article, "Abuse and Durability." It provides a detailed statistical analysis of...well, I'll let you read it for yourselves

For those too lazy to read it, I'll summarize the key finding: There is absolutely no evidence that pitch counts enhance a pitchers durability or prevent injury. And of course any person with two working synapses knows that the 100-pitch mark is COMPLETELY arbitrary, and is not a danger threshold of any sort, nor is it supported by any data. I imagine it was just chosen because people tend to like round numbers.

Was it understandable to pull Slowey? Sure. Just don't act like it was the only sensible option, and that those who think otherwise don't know what they're talking about.

Maybe Bill James should become a pitching coach? How many DIv titles or World Titles has Bill James won???? Proven fact --- batters have higher avgs agst the same pitcher the longer they see him in a game. Plus,, (USUALLY) a pitcher tires as the game goes on. Slowey was totally in that ballpark. So according to the above,, Slowey could have pitched 15 innings with 160 pitches with no negative?? PLEASE--- there is pitch count for each pitcher where things start to fall apart. We will see how Slowey pitches in the future, that's all that matters right now.

[Mitty]

How in the hell do all you so called pitching coaches here think he was going to hurt his arm if they would have left him in to try for the ultimate pitching goal,you guys have been listening way to much about this 100 pitch bull [PoorWordUsage] ask someone who knows like Nolan Ryan the BEST ever says its all a bunch of [PoorWordUsage],I have no idea where it came from but its [PoorWordUsage] hell high school pitchers throw more than that,I dont see alot of them hurting and the pros have a hell of lot better trainers.

[PierBridge]

Another spot on post by Mudcutter!

[Born2Fish]

How in the hell do all you so called pitching coaches here think he was going to hurt his arm if they would have left him in to try for the ultimate pitching goal,you guys have been listening way to much about this 100 pitch bull [PoorWordUsage] ask someone who knows like Nolan Ryan the BEST ever says its all a bunch of [PoorWordUsage],I have no idea where it came from but its [PoorWordUsage] hell high school pitchers throw more than that,I dont see alot of them hurting and the pros have a hell of lot better trainers.

Go ask Mark Prior the same question.

[PierBridge]

Quote:

How in the hell do all you so called pitching coaches here think he was going to hurt his arm

Did you miss the part where Slowey injured his elbow and had a cortisone shot along with missing a start all within the last couple weeks?

[DonBo]

Did you miss the part where Slowey injured his elbow and had a cortisone shot along with missing a start all within the last couple weeks?

No use screwing up a perfectly good argument with facts.

[harvey lee]

Common sense does not work for some in this subject.

[Double D]

I also agree with taking him out. There are no extra points for a nono, just the same win we got.

With that post(and because I have extra time tonight), my unofficial count on this thread so far is:

22 - agree to take him out

8 - disagree and say leave him in

DD

[TR21HP]

So Mitty, High school pitchers throw more than that and they don't get hurt. Better check the facts before making a ridiculous statement like that. There are more and more high school players getting Tommy John surgery than ever before and the high school league says it's because of the number of pitches being thrown. Team first, individual awards after that.

[thatoneguy]

Have any of the pitch count proponents bothered to read Bill James' "Abuse and Durability" as I suggested?

It's a fairly exhaustive statistical analysis done by the god of sabermetrics that *proves* from a long-term, statistical, factual basis, that pitch counts DO NOT enhance a Major League pitcher's durability, nor do they prevent injury? Or that it seems that, in point of fact, the opposite is true?

[harvey lee]

Forget about the pitch count, he had an injury and had cortisone to help.

What is there to not understand that he should not push the issue to possibly reinjure it???????

I don't understand why so many would like to see a personal goal made over pitching for the remainder of the season and helping the team go into the play-offs??

Please explain this to me as I do not understand why one would take that chance.

[zepman]

I've had cortisone shots in my ankle, shoulder and knee...and never missed a day of practice or game because of it...he was out there pitching so he was 100% good to go. If he wasn't the Twins wouldn't have had him out there (see Justin Morneau). The injury played no part in why he was taken out...he had reached the max pitch count Gardy would let him or any other starter pitch. That is my beef with the whole issue...love Gardy...love the Twins...100% disagree with this call. In this special circumstance...he should have been allowed to finish what he started.

[SledNeck]

How in the hell do all you so called pitching coaches here think he was going to hurt his arm if they would have left him in to try for the ultimate pitching goal,you guys have been listening way to much about this 100 pitch bull [PoorWordUsage] ask someone who knows like Nolan Ryan the BEST ever says its all a bunch of [PoorWordUsage],I have no idea where it came from but its [PoorWordUsage] hell high school pitchers throw more than that,I dont see alot of them hurting and the pros have a hell of lot better trainers.

the ultimate single game pitching goal is the perfect game

[harvey lee]

Yes, lets let him pitch and watch him not throw a no hitter. Anyone who knows baseball could see in the 7th he was getting tired as his pitches were not there like the other innings. Hit a runner but that ok as his pitch count is only 106 and his injury would never return.

LOL. This is nothing more than crazy talk.

[Big Dave2]

I've had cortisone shots in my ankle, shoulder and knee...and never missed a day of practice or game because of it...he was out there pitching so he was 100% good to go. If he wasn't the Twins wouldn't have had him out there (see Justin Morneau). The injury played no part in why he was taken out...he had reached the max pitch count Gardy would let him or any other starter pitch. That is my beef with the whole issue...love Gardy...love the Twins...100% disagree with this call. In this special circumstance...he should have been allowed to finish what he started.

Of course he was 100%, but the idea is to keep him at 100%.

There was not none way in He11 that he was going to complete the no hitter. Not a single chance. If you want to win a game you go with the statistics and the statistics say that a pitcher who has 109 pitches in the 7th inning and labored to get out of that inning is probably better off getting out of the game in favor of one of the best bullpens in the league. A bullpen who was not used the night before and needed to get some guys some work.

Its too bad to see the state of sports has become such a selfish mentality that so many people would rather see a single player make a relatively meaningless personal accomplishment rather than be happy that the TEAM won the game.

[DTro]

No, it's too bad that the state of sports has become so micro managed that we have to use 8 pitchers to complete a game, because that is what "the book" says.

[jwmiller33]

I will say this, how many managers could take a team like the Twins, and get to 1st place with the injuries they have had all season?

Gardy can coach and has proved it. He is in it for the long haul and not one no hit game.

Go Twins.

i'm with ya on this on harvey. however, i would also like to add that i have heard terry francona is getting some talks of manager of the year as well... the injuries he has had to deal with this year:

-perdroia (wrist)

-jed lowrie (mono)

-daisuke (diceK-neck)

-jd drew (neck)

-mike cameron (kidney stones)

-beckett (back)

-victor martinez (foot and thumb, two separate times)

-ellsbury (ribs)

-youkillis (back)

-hermida (ribs)

-mike lowell (hip)

-perdroia AGAIN (broken foot)

-clay buchholz (hamstring)

-variteck (broken foot)

-adrian beltre (hamstring)

-kevin youkillis AGAIN-outfor season muscle tear in thumb

-hideki okajima (hamstring)

and now most recently, ellsbury re-aggravated his fractured ribs. basically, the red sox have had to deal with a lot more injuries than the twins have, while at the same time, maintaining a record [in the toughest division in baseball] that would be good enough to be in the playoff race in almost every other division in baseball. just the fact that the red sox have remained competitive and are still in the playoff hunt (relatively speaking/wild card) is amazing considering the amount of injuries they have had to deal with this year... if they were in the AL central or west, they would be in first place or 1-3 games back all year long. i'd say going 67-52 in the AL east with those types of injuries is much more impressive than going 68-50 in the AL central with the injuries we have had to deal with

i don't think gardy is going to get manager of the year, even tho i want him to

[Canon Guy]

No, it's too bad that the state of sports has become so micro managed that we have to use 8 pitchers to complete a game, because that is what "the book" says.

How many times have the Twins used 8 pitchers in a game?

To me it's too bad people just can't enjoy the game for what it is,a game.

[going4it]

No, it's too bad that the state of sports has become so micro managed that we have to use 8 pitchers to complete a game, because that is what "the book" says.

Not true Dunsing did it the night before all by himself due to low pitch count. Simple stuff there.