Ethics question

[MOSSY]

there is a difference between STATE FOREST LAND and state land.

it is not illegal to build stands on state land. it is illegal to build stands on STATE FOREST LANDS

[Getanet]

Here is what it says in the 2009 Regulations booklet that can be found online. It doesn't appear to be illegal to build permanent stands on State Forest Lands:

Page 72 Elevated Stands

In Wildlife Management Areas and State Parks open to hunting, only portable stands may be used. Portable stand use is encouraged in State Forests (see page 112).

Page 112 STATE FORESTS - Elevated Scaffolds

The use of portable tree stands is recommended, especially those

which can be secured without driving nails into trees. Nails are

a safety hazard for woodcutters and harm the forest. Personal

property must be removed from State Forest lands. It is illegal to destroy state property, including the cutting of trees for shooting lanes. Littering and erecting permanent buildings are prohibited.

[lakevet]

We've been hunting the same patch of public land for about 25 years now, it's literally right behind the house I grew up in. We had it to ourselves for about 20 years and then we got some new neighbors that moved in next door.

These guys have been sitting in the stands that we built, and some of them aren't just a couple of pieces of wood stuck to a tree, they took alot of work dragging lumber a mile off the trail. The way I was raised, if you're scouting an area and find that someone else is already hunting it, you find another spot, plain and simple. What would you do?

Sounds like what the Native Americans said about europeans in the 1800's. In our area my relatives first homesteaded and Fond Du Lac tribe members were living their traditional ways on the other side of the lake. They thought the same thing of my relatives. My older relatives complained about the city folk who chopped up the lakeshore into small lots driving up taxes and not recognizing boundaries between public and private land. We tore down all our permanent stands on public lands AND our private lands over 20 years ago because of the large number of cabin people who followed hunting advice that a permanent stand is there because locals know it is a good spot. I personally have torn down permanent stands that had been maintained by my family for over 90 years. It felt like a funeral, ending the connection with my previous generations. But it was public land and we adjusted, just like those who came before us. It greatly reduced the conflicts with the lazy slobs. Also less trespass problems on our private land. Tear down the permanents and adjust. Move on. Whoever hunted your area before you did moved on. And there was someone before you who was displaced. We have the same feeling about muzzleloading being opened to those who also hunt regular firearms. More people in the woods at the same time always increases competition for spots and risk of friction. We can't make anymore land. We can set seasons to spread out hunters so certain seasons have less people in the woods by offering a more restricted, difficult to hunt season for those who want to experience a hunt with quieter woods with less people competition. Muzzy season has gone from 10,000 to almost 70,000 and growing. Just the past couple years we are having guys camp all of archery, rifle and muzzy season on one spot. They come in and "claim " the spot because they patterned a buck and we should respect their spot even if public land and they slept in and we got up early. We left to another spot, but the kids learned a lesson. There are selfish slob hunters out there, but you don't want to lower yourself to their level. And someone eventually will displace you on the land you hunt. Hopefully it will be your friends/family/nice neighbors. Take the high road.

lakevet

[RumRiverRat]

Not really an ethics question.

You are breaking the law by building permanent stands on public land.

[fishuhalik]

I'm not sure it's illegal. It's actually owned by Blandin Paper Company, so it's not technically public land, but they let people access their land.

Also, they have yet to beat me to a stand. It's more that they hunt a good stand in the wrong wind and ruin it for the rest of the season, or come out 20 minutes after shooting to find me sitting in my stand.

[ANYFISH2]

Holy [PoorWordUsage] people!! If you don't know the laws about public land and stands, shut up and stop posting!! I apologize but the mindless ridicule is getting old.

Unfortunatly fishuhalik it sounds like you tried explaining it to the folks and they just don't care. Nothing you can really do about it now. I hunt public land also, it is cass county land where it IS now Illegal to build new permenent stands. We haven't run in to too many issues with fellow hunters here, probably because the camps near us have been there just as long. We stay away from each others areas, if we want to hunt in there area we find out if they have someone there or not. We have no problems. It is a respect thing, Myself and my group have respect for our fellow hunters. I wish all of us did!

[96trigger]

Sounds like Blandin can let you do whatever you want to it as techinicaly, it is not state owned. Whatever, the case, I stand by what I said earlier.

[SapperACE]

Trigger,

I do have personal experiences of dissapointment on public lands. Just last Sunday -duck opener- I got to the slough I wanted to hunt. I was there at 5:30 am (shooting time was 6:50) to find someone was already in my... (I mean the spot I wanted to hunt)... spot. The group of guys that were in the spot, watched my brother and I have a great shoot Saturday morning. Did it stink? yeah, but what can you do. I should've gotten up earlier. I just found a different spot and made it work. This was one of dozens of expeiences like this I have had. I have been hunting public land my whole life. It's just one of those things. I'm just glad there's public land for me to hunt at all!

[wannafish2]

Be nice if we could go back to the old days when you could greet the other hunters on public land and talk about where each of you would be hunting for safety sake so everybody knew where it was safe to fire, and for no other reason, no p***ing on pubic trees, as a matter of fact, you could count on a stranger's help dragging your deer out and a congratulatory handshake over a cup of coffee as you tell your story.........what happened to just plain being able to enjoy hunting and we were all sports persons?

I recall years ago someone was in a stand my father and i had built. I introduced myself and did a little drive for the hunter. He got a deer and my stand was open the next day. everybody was happy. oh for the old days.

[wannafish2]

sorry, i meant public trees not pubic trees in my previous post.

[Muskie456]

funny

[SpitnArgueDuckClub*]

And that's the problem. People just have no respect these days. Man, that sounds weird saying that, being that I'm only 25! There are many areas that I have scouted that had a tremendous amount of sign and left alone because I found evidence that someone else hunts the area. You hear about problems with people getting in fights and worse in the woods? It's because of this kind of attitude. Not the fact that someone else shot a deer in their area, it's the fact that no one has a code of conduct to follow anymore. Do I own the deer? No. Do I own the woods? No. Is there plenty of good, public land that you can find that you can have to yourself and save the trouble of these kinds of arguements? Yes. Just off the top of my head I can think of about a dozen different areas that I could hunt that I know no one else is going to go this year. Not because I spend alot of time in the woods (I use to) but because I do a little thing called studying. Plot maps, topo maps, etc., narrow down some good woods, spend an afternoon in the fall checking them out, etc. It's real easy to see someone drag a nice deer out of the woods and then just hunt their stands the following years. It actually takes some know-how to figure out for yourself how to actually scout and plan and take a nice buck.

[Steve Foss]

We've been having a problem in our deer area the last couple of years and I was wondering how you guys would handle it. We've been hunting the same patch of public land for about 25 years now, it's literally right behind the house I grew up in. We had it to ourselves for about 20 years and then we got some new neighbors that moved in next door.

Now, before someone says it, I know, permanent stands are not exactly "legal" but the stands we have set up have been there for the better part of the 25 years we've been hunting the area, we just repair them as needed. My question is, if you're hunting about 1,000 acres of public land and know that your neighbor is hunting a specific area, would you sit in on "his" area or find your own spots? These guys have been sitting in the stands that we built, and some of them aren't just a couple of pieces of wood stuck to a tree, they took alot of work dragging lumber a mile off the trail. The way I was raised, if you're scouting an area and find that someone else is already hunting it, you find another spot, plain and simple. What would you do?

I haven't read any of the replies in this thread, just thought I'd add my two cents.

You are perhaps being unreasonable (though I understand your angst) in your protectiveness of stands that may be illegally mounted on public land no matter how long you've been maintaining them.

Your new neighbors are wrong for being lazy and for taking advantage of the hard scouting, building, hunting and upkeep you and yours have been doing on that land. The law is on their side, but that doesn't make what they are doing "right" or "ethical," only legal.

With 1,000 acres out there, why not consider this a bit of a wakeup call and abandon "your" public stands to the neighbors? Scout and hunt new areas on the nearly 2 square miles. The message sent to the neighbors, if you also ignore them, is that you are good enough hunters to find deer on your own instead of taking advantage of locations scouted by others. If you've been hunting the same stands for 20 or so years, you may be in a rut and there actually may be better hunting in other spots on that land. And if it is against the law, don't break the law again by setting up permanent stands.

[mknolls]

As I have been reading I would have to agree. Public land is for all and you do your best to work it out with the unethical hunters out there. I have hunted public and private land many years. I prefer private land. But where I hunt it can get over used so time to time I scout out state forest land to hunt. I have used portable for years as I get older and I have health issues as well know it is harder and harder to carry a stand in in the morning put it up stay all day take it down and leave. I no longer can sit all day like I use to. If I put a stand up leave it even If I lock it to the tree it is mine yes, but not legally. By rights some one else could claim it for a day and hunt it, it is a on public land. At that point it just became a argument. If I understand the laws right your not allowed to leave a stand overnight, or unattended. I have had some friends of mine that leave there portable stands up the hole season. And yes they have lost a few and had some run in's with hunter using them. By all rights they can do this. One more thing I have seen is the blocking of the entire logging road with there big campers and tents as they make there claim to that section of woods. I have called the DNR on this but to no avail did I ever get the DNR to show up and have a talk to these guys. If you chose to use portables you should expect that is legal for them to us your stand. Ethical you would hope they will not. Especially if you put up a portable just for the day. I Now use a ground blind as much as possible. Try to do research as to a good peace of public land respect the others in the woods and hope you find a good spot to in joy what MN offers us. Remember there is more to just taking a deer. The time I spend in the woods with my son and family is all way a good time. Remember that some of the people do not have the capability to do as much as they may have done in there younger years. And some time giving a little leeway can just be the right thing to do. It could be your DAD or Grandparent that is out in the woods, why just because it feels right, just like you like it. Be safe have a successful hunting season and hopefully we can all get along.

Good LUCK

MK

[Muthagoose]

If its illegal then its no different than staking a claim in a point for duck hunting on public water just because you used to hunt it...

Best yet years ago I took a couple big boys from a well know Mn waterfowl org hunting. They had a good time and the next weekend what did I find but them and their buddies hunting in a spot they NEVER knew of previously. So instead of getting all anal about it we set up across the pond and did our best which was better than they did.I learned then if its not mine deal with it.. Lesson learned don't show ANYONE a spot unless you will never need to go back.

You will find most of the time a problem or competition is created by your own errors in security. It usually comes from others over hearing conversations at watering holes or cafe's ect.

Ive refrained from hunting the big woods up here on the weekends for the traveling circus marching. Why get into a hassle when the simple fact is the majority clowns will be gone by Monday.Unlike farm country where drives and pressure dictate. Its more enjoyable for me now to be patient and enjoy myself than deal with the circus.

I have to add. There's been a couple times in the last few years where people have been in our stands on private property. We simply call the sheriff or CO and since its properly posted have them escorted OFF the property. The best part is its a couple neighbors the excuse is that they used to hunt it until the family bought the land 20 years ago and yet they feel compelled that someone should feel sorry for their lack of foresight.

If you don't own it and your operating stands on public land illegally then pull your panties up and either cope with it or give up. Its called public because thats what it is. Not just your tax dollars and license fee's went into buying it theirs did also.

You only have the ever growing human race to thank for it.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

I'm not sure it's illegal. It's actually owned by Blandin Paper Company, so it's not technically public land, but they let people access their land.

This is sort of an amusing thread. Everyone is talking about laws pertaining to public land, and the land in question is not even public land, it is private land if it belongs to Blandin Paper Company.

Taken from Blandin literature about company forest land:

Quote:

UPM Blandin has welcomed public use of

company forest land for decades. While this

is still the case, Blandin foresters are asking

the public to respect the land.

Outdoor enthusiasts may notice some new

signs posted around Blandin forest lands at

trail and road entrances. Off-Highway

Vehicles (OHVs) operators need to adhere to

the following guidelines:

• No off-trail riding

• Ride only on roads and trails that have a

stable surface

• Stay out of swamps, bogs, and streams

• Stay off Grant-in-Aid Snowmobile trails

• Do not construct new trails

• Do not ride during March 15- May 1, due

to wet soil conditions

The company has also adopted rules that

encourage hunters to use only portable deer

stands. Construction of permanent stands is

not allowed on UPM Blandin land, nor is tree

and brush cutting allowed. Hunters and others

must pick up their trash and litter.

[Steve Foss]

Oh, that IS funny. I read the initial post that said it was on public land and assumed the poster was correct. Didn't bother to read all the rest of the gobbledegook that followed until you posted that about Blandin, swamptiger. Thanks for setting the record straight.

[SpitnArgueDuckClub*]

We've been having a problem in our deer area the last couple of years and I was wondering how you guys would handle it. We've been hunting the same patch of public land for about 25 years now, it's literally right behind the house I grew up in. Now, before someone says it, I know, permanent stands are not exactly "legal" but the stands we have set up have been there for the better part of the 25 years we've been hunting the area, we just repair them as needed. My question is, if you're hunting about 1,000 acres of public land and know that your neighbor is hunting a specific area, would you sit in on "his" area or find your own spots?

Hmmm, looking at key excerpts of the original post shows "public land" and "I know permanant stands are not exactly legal". I'm not exactly sure how anyone reading it could think otherwise.

[Steve Foss]

Hmmm, looking at key excerpts of the original post shows "public land" and "I know permanant stands are not exactly legal". I'm not exactly sure how anyone reading it could think otherwise.

That's how I read it, CnH, but later in the thread he said it was actually Blandin land, not public land. And, well, that changes everything.

Still, even though the original question is moot in this case because it's actually private land, the ethical issue as outlined by the OP has yielded some interesting thoughts, IMO.

[broken_line]

what the #@%! some of you chewed me out for doing the exact thing you are reccomending this guy to do..

[skee0025]

Still alot of people saying deal with it. No persoanl experiences? Did anybody even think about what it would be like if it were them? Have we degraded our self so far in an entitlement society that we no longer even think about our fellow sportsman and women

I dont own any land so all I hunt is public land. Do I alway get to the spot I want to hunt first? No. Do I whine about it saying they have no ethics because I wanted to hunt that spot. No.

You talk about an entitlement mentality, who is feeling more entitled? I would argue its the one who places permanent stands on land thinking they should have exclusive rights to hunt that area. I personally would like to see the State and Feds ban all permanent stands on public lands.

Just because You dont see a permanent stand somewhere doesnt mean its not being hunted, maybe others have been packing in portables to hunt from.

[swamptiger]

Speaking of ethics, I think a little respect for the landowner would be appropriate in this instance...

Blandin is gracious enough to allow people to use their land for free - at least people who use the land could take the trouble to find out what the rules are. Sorry, fishuholik, but it appears that your party is in the wrong - not the other way around...

[ANYFISH2]

Swamptiger, you maybe correct that the permenant stand is now illegal. But as he has stated those stands where built 25 years ago, before those rules where written for Blandin land. It may not be wrong use exsisting stands but rather only wrong to erect new stands.( maybe why they say "adopted rules to ENCOURAGE hunter to only use portable stands").

The point is permenant stand or not the neighbors know they hunt this spot and move in on them. In the case of them hunting it on the wrong wind, well we all cant put stands all over the land and expect people not to hunt them if we are not there, that to me is cover a peice of land and claiming all of it, it is one thing to have A stand but not a # of them and a hole area to your self.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

In the case of them hunting it on the wrong wind, well we all cant put stands all over the land and expect people not to hunt them if we are not there, that to me is cover a peice of land and claiming all of it, it is one thing to have A stand but not a # of them and a hole area to your self.

I understand the situation. However, I am seeing more and more permanent stands erected on public land in the area where I hunt every year. I know of one spot I hunted occasionally for over 30 years - some hunters have pulled in a couple of wheeled stands that they now leave there year-around. Without knowing the people personally, it's hard to know what their intentions are. Are they leaving them there for everyone to use (which is actually the law on public lands - first come, first served), or are they simply "staking their claim"?

Personally, I think it's gotten to the point where permanent stands should not be allowed on public lands, period..

[DinnerPail]

These are signs posted on Blandin lands at the entrances of there roads and on gates. These started showing up a couple of years ago. I hunt alot of there land and welcome the rules.