Becoming a guide

[BuckKiller]

My mom and I where talking tonight about me finding a job and a few things got tossed around, including starting my own guide service. Sounds like a good idea to me but I don't know how I would go about getting started...any ideas?

I have an education in marketing so I think I could market my self fairly well. I just need to know how to get started and what are some ways I could run it: price, lakes/areas, type of fish... what would you wanna see if you were to pay for a guide?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Buck

[Team Otter]

BuckKiller,

First, I'll tell you that's it's not as easy as you or anyone else may think. It's hard work but often times, very enjoyable. Marketing yourself can be done most effectively by word of mouth but the Internet, newspapers and contacts within and outside the industry certainly don't hurt either. All of this, though, does not come cheap. Speaking of not coming cheap, guide insurance is not "given away" and then you'll want a boat that can handle 2 - 3 people at a minimum. Often times, people want to simply catch fish and do it with friends and family OR learn a lake better, so keep that in mind as you move forward. I keep my boat, accessories and gear very neat and tidy; people like to see that too. Again, this takes time. Also, be prepared for rods to get broke, lures lost, unexpected bathroom breaks, etc. If you are not a people person, guiding is not the business for you to explore. Personally, I love it and enjoy each opportunity I get to take a person(s) out and put smiles on their faces.

I wish you the best of luck.

[FlatBottom]

I'd have to say it's all about making a good name for yourself. You need to bust your hump and do the research. If fishing, know the water. If hunting, know that woods like your backyard. People are paying to catch or kill. Ya, some are paying for the experience, but when it comes down to it, I don't know to many people that'd pay, lets say 125 for a half a day to catch a few sheephead. Just work hard to keep the customer happy, and fish even harder. I'm sure you already know this. Good luck.

[Sandmannd]

The last two are right on. Also, I don't believe this can be career right out of the gates. Lots of time and hard work go into building your business and branding yourself. You are going to spend more than you make the first couple of years to get your name out there. If it's something you want to do, by all means go for it, but don't look at it as being a bread winner right off the bat.

[gunflint]

I guided for several years and might get back into it again part time if the economy continues to head south. The two most important things that you need to know about guiding are, taxes, and insurance. The IRS hates guides and keeps a close eye on them. If you try to guide without insurance you could lose everything you have and may ever have.

Some other things to ask yourself are...

Can you handle charging someone $300 for a day of fishing when the fish just won't bite?

Team Otter was right on about the equipment. Do you have the finances to cover quality equipment and gear for 4 people?

You need a very good boat and a very reliable motor.

Are you going to serve a shore lunch? There is a whole seperate list of issues for that. For instance most law suits involving guides are filed by lawyers who had "slip falls" getting out of the boat.

How will you feel about taking someone out to your hot spots then finding them there every day for the next week while you have other clients that need to catch fish?

Are you comfortable with someone Else's family in your boat when the weather turns fast and their life is in your hands?

I'm not trying to be negative but these are just a few issues to consider. I could come up with a dozen more questions but these should give you an idea of some of the things that you need to consider.

[DTro]

You cannot put a price on doing something you love for a living, but be prepared to find out that what you do for a living you may no longer love.

Some things are best left as a hobby or pastime.

Having said that, don’t let anyone tell you that you can’t, you can only find that out for yourself.

[jwmiller33]

good points raised gunflint

[jwmiller33]

especially this one....

How will you feel about taking someone out to your hot spots then finding them there every day for the next week while you have other clients that need to catch fish?

that would really grind my gears... but the again, its a free country and people can do whatever they want..

[nofishfisherman]

Guiding is the same as any start up business. It takes alot of money to start up and then you'll probably work your tail off for a couple years before you reach the magic break even point. And that assumes you are successful at it. Many people will spend alot of money trying to get it going but then never are able to recoup the costs.

I think many people underestimate what it takes. They just think "Well I already go out fishing alot why not charge someone to come with me." Unfortunately if it was that simple everyone would be a fishing guide.

Alot of good things have been said here. You are going to need a fair amount of money to get things going.

Insurance

High quality Boat/Motor/electronics

High quality gear for 4

Marketing budget - highly under estimated by most. How do you plan to get your name out there? HSOforum? Newspaper? Brochures? Word of mouth? (word of mouth takes alot of time to become a viable marketing tool).

Incidentals- bait, gas, food, camera, repair costs, gear replacement and repair

And you'll need time. When not on a paid trip you'll need to be out on the lakes and rivers as much as possible to keep up on the current bite and learning as many lakes as possible. All of that takes time and money that comes out of your own pocket.

And then like mentioned before you still have to worry about the tax man. You'll need to be sure to set a certain amount of your earnings aside for when the tax man comes calling for it. If you book 3 trips a week for $250 each you'll have $750, you won't be keeping as much of that $750 as you might be thinking.

If you want to be a full time guide with no other job you may want to look at incorporating, its not hard but may require a lawyer to assist with paperwork. It will help you out come tax time.

There is just so much to think about and the deck will be stacked against you. But with that said if its something you really want to do then don't let any of us stop you. We are just making sure you are going into it with as much info as possible. Challenges are easier to tackle if you can see all the pitfalls ahead of time.

[jwmiller33]

What do you guys think is the aggregate upfront cost to a guide? including gear, boat and motors, insurance, etc, etc....

i already have a career, im just curious as to what it costs guides to get into the business initially...

i gained a lot more respect for guides after reading this thread. i never really put much thought into what a guide has to do besides fishing.

thanks much

[polarsusd81]

Upfront cost for someone looking to just break into it would be in the 50K range if you don't already have a "guide worthy" boat. You might be able to find something used to knock the price down a bit, but new gets all the warranties and faster service at your dealer's service shop. Important things for a guide.

Rod and reel combos for guides I have taken trips with were in the 250 range for each setup. When you consider most guides will have close to 20 rods in the boat, there is 5 grand right there. Don't forget all the tackle these guys run, 100s of cranks will get you up there quick too. Electronics on a guides boat are always top notch and always up to date. Gotta have the truck and gas to get you there. If guiding on a distant lake, the guide has to get a hotel room usually. Just a few more things to consider.

In essence, unless you already have all the gear and an amazing boat, you will struggle. A couple friends are guides and if you get really good, sponsors will help you out. One of my buddies picked up a Ranger/Evinrude sponsorship last year. Pretty sweet deal if you can hack it.

[mrklean]

One point not talked about is with the economy being so bad, do you think many people are gonna want to go out and spend 200-300 a day to fish? Money is tight so will those people be there to spend the money?

[jwmiller33]

One point not talked about is with the economy being so bad, do you think many people are gonna want to go out and spend 200-300 a day to fish? Money is tight so will those people be there to spend the money?

very very good point... guided fishing trips are one thing that people could easily stop doing to save money

[guideman]

I have been guiding as a full time professional guide for 23 years now. Aside from all the stuff about insurance, being a people person and having all the top notch equipment. There is another thing to consider if you want to be a full time guide.

Are you good enough to get on fish everyday? Hot, cold, rain or shine, cold fronts, high winds, brutal heat and on those

days when nothing seem to work for you. Customers don't want to hear excuses, when they're paying you $300+ a day to put them on fish. You'll find out that you may not know as much as you thought you did, when you were only fishing for fun.

I know lots of very good anglers, that can't guide to save their lives. They just can't handle the pressure that

comes with the job. Especially when you first start guiding and you need to impress a few clients. Your reputation goes beyond just fishing, most of the resorts won't hire a guide with a less than desirable life style, if you get my drift.

Even after you estabish your guide service, it takes a lot of work to really make any money at it. Summer goes by a lot faster when your guiding.

Winter fishing just doesn't make a lot of money compared to the summer time and the big investment in quality winter gear can break you.

If you guide without real GUIDE

INSURANCE you're a moron, it will catch up to you eventualy.

So don't quit your day job and I would recommend starting it as a part time guide and go from there. I work over 100 days a year and the pay stops when the fishing stops.

I have about $10,000 invested in rods/tackle and equipment. That doesn't count my boats or

electronics, HSOforum fees or other related gear, release tools, nets, driftsocks exct..

There is a huge difference between guiding once and awhile to make a few extra bucks and guiding for a living so keep that in mind. Once it becomes a job, you may as well give it up, because it takes all the fun out of it, and it should be above all fun, or it's just another job and your customers will suffer for it.

Hey, good luck!

"Ace"

Ace guide service.

[Mike Walerak]

A little off topic I know, but if you want to talk expenses.

Not only does it cost money to be a guide but I just think what it costs me to run my boat on the river 2-3 days a week.

My boat 1900 ProV with a 90 Merc. Yes it uses gas, but it also uses oil. Why is 2 cycle oil so outrageously priced?

This boat also depreciates each year.

Insurance. I have all my gear covered as well a full coverage with a low deductable because hitting logs can happen at any time.

Lets talk rods. 15 rods in the boat at all times fully rigged to fish snag infested waters. Not to mention, I break about 2 rods a year. Most top end companies have a good warranty but it still costs money.

Tackle. I never leave the baitshop for under 10-15 bucks. I'd hate to see a guides bait bill.

My pickup, It's an F150 that not only uses gas and needs oil changes but also requires full coverage insurance because I make payments to the bank. I do have limited use Insurance on it because it only pulls the boat. I hope I don't drive more than 7,000 miles fishing this year or I have to up my Insurance, for a fee of course.

What other equipment must stay running? Batteries, onboard chargers, trolling motors and kicker motors all require maintinace and it does cost money. My kicker has lower unit seals out on it right now. Who pays for that?

Throw in a couple trips to the carwash a month. and I am guessing it costs me a minnimum of $50.00 everytime I go fishing. And I only live 20 miles from the river.

No wounder my wife made me get a second job just so that I could continue to fish at my leisure.

Next time you go fishing with a buddy throw him a 20 dallar bill. It will get you invied back. I have it worked out with my buddies that we take turns using peoples boat and it all works out just fine.

[Wayne Ek]

First, I know no other guides in the upper mid-west that are making a living from just soft-water guiding and even if you throw in a guide that has an established hard-water service I will bet dollars to donuts that he or she still has other income sources. That being said:

First is a rational business plan. Then you need to form an LLC to protect any other assets you or your family has. Next is a good commercial fishing insurance policy. Then some idea as to how much money you have upfront to spend on advertising those first couple of years. And never loose track of what a guide is... your people skills will be far more important than your ability to catch fish. I have found it to be fun at times, hard at times and eventful at times, but always rewarding.

[BuckKiller]

wow thats gonna give me alot to think about. Thanks for the info guys.

[T.S128]

this doesn't really have anything to do with this topic haha, but i have a question for buckkiller. I'm just curious as to what you said to carpman and what he did in another thread regarding. you can post it her or e mail me [email protected] or none at all. I just want to know haha and good luck if you get into guideing.

[BuckKiller]

lol e-mail just got sent.

[Big R]

I guided for several years in college on the "Big Lake" and besides having all the good gear (boat/rods/truck/etc) you need to know the lake and species your clients are after. The clients need to feel as if you are an expert on this lake and for whatever species you are after. I've had client that have had a good time on the water during tough fishing and they felt that they got their money worth because they saw how hard I worked to put them on fish.

Like everyone else said - GET INSURANCE. Guide insurance runs around $600 for the summer season typically.

Another tip would be to get on a first name basis with the owners/workers at the local baitshops. They will get your name out there better than any other means.

Keep in mind to be successful isn't going to happen in 1 year. It often times takes years to build up a client list that will keep you busy in the summer. Unless you are a marketing genius or already have some prospective clients - this is going to be a part-time gig for a little while.

Good luck. For me, guiding was my dream job. Hopefully, I will be able to get back into it int he future.

[Pherris]

Well here is my 2 cents:

I have been involved and worked with many businesses owners over the years in a consultant capacity. They have ranged from 23 year olds whose parents but them a business to high level executives that had left successful careers of fortune 500 companies to start their own business. Some were and are very successful while most failed. The most common thread among those that failed was CAPITOL and LACK OF A REALISTIC BUSINESS PLAN. They all had $$$ they thought would be enough and it wasn’t. When capitol runs low most people begin to make bad business decisions. They can not overcome the fear of loss and go into survival mode. Once that happens they are most likely going to go out of business. Unfortunate but true. A BUSINESS PLAN IS CRITICAL. You should also talk with others in the business and show them your plan. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE BUSINESS PLAN WRITTEN OUT WITH NUMBERS IN PLACE YOU SHOULD NOT EVEN CONDSIDER STARTING ANY TYPE OF BUSINESS!!!! I have never known of a successful business that did it without a written plan. I am sure it can be done but the overwhelming majority will fail.

Now with that said it is possible but difficult to make a living as a guide in MN. The main factor is the income vs. expense. If there are 200 days that you can get out and you charge $300-$400 per day that is 80K gross sales best case. The expense side will vary but there will be Ins, Gas, boat maintenance so how much will this cost? Also consider equipment boat, tow vehicle, and marketing. Now cut the sales amount in half for the first year to 40K. Then draw up the plan with 20K in sales in case things take longer then you originally planed. I am not trying to be negative just realistic. I have witnessed people lose everything they worked their whole lives for trying to make a business profitable and it is a sad event. Now I have also worked with many successful business owners too the common thread was they all had a good plan and sufficient capitol going in.

The last thing I would consider is the economy in the current environment it may be difficult to get people to spend $$ on a guide. I know a few resort owners boat dealers and both say that business is tough because discretionary spending it at historic lows. I am sure some of the guides on the board can speak better to that.

Again just my 2 cents.

I hope you are successful in whatever you do.

Good Fishing!!

[Ranckenstuff]

As a client of half a dozen guides in the last 3 years I'll say this:

Make sure you know the *DNR* regulations in and out and don't take any shortcuts. In some cases, you are setting an example. It should be a good example. It isn't all about getting to the limit.

my .02

[Down Deep]

Written plans are great, but you have to ask the question " What makes me think that people will pay me money for what I do." That said most businesses are started by people working at it part-time and building from there. There is a lot bigger market than just guiding and you have to ask yourself what you can do to add value to your payday? You being a marketting person should understand that. When starting a business one of the worst things someone can do is spend too much money up front and not have enough cash on hand to weather the start up phase. I believe that you don't have to have $50K of equipment to get started unless you are doing great lakes or ocean fishing. A good used boat sutiable to your business, some [YouNeedAuthorization] purchased rods and reels, etc, and a day job to earn some working capitol can get you in the game . The customers want to catch fish, have a safe and enjoyable day on the water. I've used seveal guides in Canada and Alaska and none of them had top-of-the-line boats and equipment, but we caught fish and were treated well. I've been a repeat customer to a guide in Alaska for 3 seasons and we are booked for a 4th. He has a 15 year old boat and uses Ugly Stick rods and Shamano reels.

A good way to decided if you want to be in a certain type of business is to try on a job. The northwest sports show is this week. Head over there and try to hire on with one of the resorts for the summer and see how you like the work.

[MinnesotaBoatman]

Buckkiller,

While I am not a fishing guide and I would be much thinner if I relied on my fish catching skills to put food on the table or money in my pocket, I have used a guide a few times and have successfully started my own business. Here are my thoughts:

Assess your situation and determine why you want to be a guide and what you have to bring to the market place? You can learn as you go and life can be a very effective teacher. Lessons can be repeated until you get them.

You probably enjoy catching fish, think that you are good at it and enjoy being outside. Think of this as investing in a lifestyle career doing something that you love. As you get more experience, you’ll know if you love it as a career.

Getting Going

1. You likely don’t have $50K sitting around to invest in all the latest and greatest gear. That is OK. You will learn to make do and use your resources wisely. The first guide I used was a college kid on summer vacation in a 16 foot boat with a 20 HP. He helped us catch fish and we were happy.

2. That said, get a day or night job so you can work, earn regular money and save.

3. Get a good tax business advisor who can help you with all the requirements and save you money.

4. Incorporate your business. This can be done with all the information on the Minnesota Secretary of State’s office HSOforum.

· Think of your business name.

· Verify that it is not in use by someone else

· Complete a one page Articles of Incorporation for a Limited Liability Company and send in a $160 filing fee.

5. Get a free business checking account at a bank that is convenient to you.

6. If you don’t have one, get an inexpensive prepaid cell phone for your clients to contact you. Set up your voice mail saying that you can’t speak at the moment, you are probably busy netting a big fish for one of your clients.

7. Have some business cards printed now that you have a business name and phone number. Try a place online called Vista Print.

8. Stop by all the local bait shops and resorts. Tell them that you are new and looking for business. Can you leave them some cards in case anyone is looking for a fishing guide.

9. Get an easy to work digital camera and learn to use it. A photo of a big fish is worth a lot in PR. Take prints of your successes to the resorts and bait shops. Make sure your name is connected to the photo.

10. Set up a HSOforum. With a little searching, a HSOforum can be hosted for under $25/year. Learn how to maintain it in your spare time. Also set up your fishing Facebook page. You can keep in touch with your clients and they can see the latest catch of the day.

11. When you are consistently earning more (after expenses) guiding and having fun doing it, consider cutting back on the day job.

12. Get the liability insurance you need.

13. When you savings grow, get a better boat and truck.

14. Get going. The opener is may 9th 2009.

[jwmiller33]

15. catch big fish. and lots of them