Antler Point Restrictions

[Musky Buck]

It's always been a game somewhat of antler quest. How many mounted doe heads or fawns do you see in MN ? James Walleye you are right on, we have forks this year that will be ten pointers and 6's this year that will be 8's. To the people seeing more and larger bucks someone or some groups in your area are probably letting the squirts walk and the larger bucks are spreading out to have their own home range, I'd thank QDM go/grow guys and gals.

[RuttenBuck]

I don't own an assault rifle and have no plans to do so, but I oppose most new restrictive gun laws because it is obvious to me that the other side has no intention of stopping their assault on my right to make my own decisions.

Likewise it is with the QDM crowd. I have no doubt that given the opportunity, a certain faction within the hunting community would continue to chip away at the heritage I love so dearly and turn it into a game of antler quest.

That is a terrible analogy. First of all, anti-gun people HATE guns and want to eliminate them. QDM hunters LOVE deer and want them to thrive. We are not out to make hunting into a high-fenced big antlered trohy hunter operation, which we get made out to be. We love to hunt fair chase deer just as much as you. We just want a better age structure and balanced herd. HELP US GET THAT AND EVERYONE WILL WIN! I can guarantee you that true QDM hunters will be happy with that and obviously like to keep it that way. If they are not, then they are trophy hunters which is different than a QDM hunter. How many trophy hunters shoot does? Not very many. How many QDM hunters shoot does? Lots of them.

[CanOCorn]

This is getting crazy. It isn't a Boone and Crockett restriction... it is a leave the spike, forks, small bucks grow. It doesn't have to be a mounter, just a mature deer.

Guess what, like I said earlier, do this program for a couple years and there is nothing to worry about. Those little bucks you are shooting now turn out to be mature bucks and lucky us we get to hunt the rut.. you know... the time of year the mature bucks are chasing and seeking and all over the map.

And whoever that was saying shooting the "fawns" for EAB is the wrong thing to do... 3 things.

1. I have never shot an animal with spots.... ever.

2. Guess what happens to that 7 month old animal when you take out it's mom just before the harsh winter.

3. The mature doe breeds again the next year so you are not decimating your herd. If you herd requires managing the mature does then by all means fire away. Just don't question my ethics though.

[Getanet]

I think it's a very good analogy. Note he says a certain fraction. Let's keep to the topic in this thread and say an antler point restriction is imposed. If after a few years we're still not seeing the results that were hoped for, do you think we'll just call it a failed experiment? Maybe. Or maybe AR isn't enough, so now we need to impose party hunting restrictions on top of that. And then go to Earn A Buck or change the season if we're still not seeing results.

As far as I'm concerned there are too many tactics to QDM to see it stop at one regulation change. Many in this very thread have said something to the effect of "AR might not get the results we're looking for, but it's a START."

[BobT]

Originally Posted By: PEATMOSS

I don't own an assault rifle and have no plans to do so, but I oppose most new restrictive gun laws because it is obvious to me that the other side has no intention of stopping their assault on my right to make my own decisions.

Likewise it is with the QDM crowd. I have no doubt that given the opportunity, a certain faction within the hunting community would continue to chip away at the heritage I love so dearly and turn it into a game of antler quest.

That is a terrible analogy. First of all, anti-gun people HATE guns and want to eliminate them. QDM hunters LOVE deer and want them to thrive. We are not out to make hunting into a high-fenced big antlered trohy hunter operation, which we get made out to be. We love to hunt fair chase deer just as much as you. We just want a better age structure and balanced herd. HELP US GET THAT AND EVERYONE WILL WIN! I can guarantee you that true QDM hunters will be happy with that and obviously like to keep it that way. If they are not, then they are trophy hunters which is different than a QDM hunter. How many trophy hunters shoot does? Not very many. How many QDM hunters shoot does? Lots of them.

Is it really such a terrible analogy?

How many anti-gun/anti-hunting/anti-fishing spokespeople do you know that will claim they don't want to take away our rights while they push to pass laws that infringe on our rights?

I don't think it is as far fetched an analogy as you think.

Bob

[candiru]

I have made this analogy before on here. A lot of posts that say we just got to get started or get our foot in the door. Example: it used to be we got to push the gun season to late Nov./ early Dec now it is just move the season back a week.

Now it is just we got to get some of these bucks past 1.5 years If that happens I guarentee these same people will see some 2.5 year old 10 pointers shot and it will become: what a shame we can't let these nice 2.5 year olds with all this potential get killed. What that deer could have become if it had lived another 2 years or even one.

[96trigger]

I think it is sad that there is no trust. I guess that it is our society. I would be in favor of some things, but not others. The only bucks I'd like to give a free pass to are the 1.5 year olds. I don't see that thinking changing in the future. Its too bad that there is so much paranoia and that people can't be taken for their word. That is what this has all come down to. Don't give an inch, they will take a mile. It's no wonder we can't accomplish anything with all that fear going around. I have much more respect for those that don't want to change because they want to be able to shoot whatever they want, than those that resist change because they feel that the change will be continuous.

[Musky Buck]

I think the hope is candiru if a larger number can get to 2 1/2 they have a fighting chance to get older,they will be a year and a hunting season smarter, right now what is the % of bucks shot being 1 1/2 year old baby bucks ? My issue isn't with young or elderly hunters, wail away if you wish. How do we stop this cross tagging, saving "my" buck tag, letting the wife or girlfriend tag the first round of bucks for the year, the got to have my buck tag for late bow or muzzleloading because what if Mr.Big walks by then. That's the part of the all-season tag I didn't like. I knew a guy that did hammer a trophy buck, girlfriend tagged it and went back to bed, saved his buck tag and scored on another giant during musket season. Other hunters blast many small ones if the tags are available, you know fill Jimmy's tag, he can only hunt first weekend so we'll use his first. That is the some of the reason I'd like to see AR in some areas with tagging your own buck. Since we hunt the rut and the yearlings are out cruising like dummies at least some would get some protection and hunters could take it a step further then and put all yearling bucks off limits. But, this is 1 factor out of many.

[Musky Buck]

There might be an easier route to go that could do the same, I like the 4 day season and a 9 for AR hunters, it would let the brown down groups pound away for 4 days although my theory is bad because I'm sure the first 4 days is likely the time when most rookie bucks get a hole in them. Bad Theory.

[Musky Buck]

Last AR thought is you know, if I see someone with a small buck, if they are truly happy with it, I'm happy for them and the meat they will get to enjoy from it. It's the people that year after year just pile up these little guys for really unknown reasons other then to shoot or fill out tags, that is where the problem is. Currently, this is a legal way to hunt so have at it if you wish. I'm not sure with how pressured our deer are, especially yearling bucks, living in a state of 6 million people, that this is a good way to go forward with our current age structure in our overall deer herd.

[james_walleye]

Its just like walleye fishing, heaven forbid there are laws in place where someone has to throw a walleye back. It basically boils down to people don't want to be told what to do. It doesnt matter if letting young bucks walk to get them to maturity and help out the age structure of our bucks might actually benefit the deer herd, they just don't want to be told what to do. Its not people against AR,or EAB, or this or that, its people against being told what to do.

[B K'S DAD]

Very good point

[AugieAngler1010]

Its just like walleye fishing, heaven forbid there are laws in place where someone has to throw a walleye back. It basically boils down to people don't want to be told what to do. It doesnt matter if letting young bucks walk to get them to maturity and help out the age structure of our bucks might actually benefit the deer herd, they just don't want to be told what to do. Its not people against AR,or EAB, or this or that, its people against being told what to do.

We live in a free country filled with many folks that value the ability to make decisions for themselves. The concept of liberty is more central to this country than the number of points on the deer you shoot each fall.

I don't condone unethical behavior - this world isn't perfect and there will always be bozo's no matter what laws you enact. Instead of likening deer hunting to walleye fishing - why not compare it to bass fishing? Most fishermen today rarely keep largemouth bass, if ever. Could we as hunters, through persuasion, work to teach the next generation the concept of selective hunting practices rather than force our values on every hunter through the force of law?

[PEATMOSS]

It is absolutely nothing like walleye fishing. Walleye slots were created to protect the prime breeding females thus increasing the overall population. Many of us that catch alot of walleyes were practicing this well before it became law.

[Big Dave2]

It is absolutely nothing like walleye fishing. Walleye slots were created to protect the prime breeding females thus increasing the overall population. Many of us that catch alot of walleyes were practicing this well before it became law.

Absolutely correct!

James_Walleye

If you want to compare walleye slots to deer hunting, it would essentially be the equivalent of protecting does(breeding females) and harvesting bucks. QDM guys are advocating quite the opposite.

[Musky Buck]

Peat he's just trying to say there was a time when any walleye was legal and you were in the minority releasing them. So if we can change our walleye slaughtering attitude maybe we have a shot with 1 1/2 year old bucks but I guess not. Read Page 10 of the February 27th, 2009 outdoor news if you want a good AR read.

[Musky Buck]

All I know for sure is our age structure in the buck world is not very good in my area when 85% are yearlings, yes % wise that's 85 out of 100. Maybe it's higher than that. The DNR said my buck was the largest they had seen so far as of Monday, I said that is pitiful because I thought I had a decent one, but hearing that what a disgrace we are hammering immature bucks, heck I'd like to tranquilize them, cut there horns down to 2"s. Give them a chance, most of you don't need the meat.

[PEATMOSS]

But you NEED the antlers?

[Big Dave2]

All I know for sure is our age structure in the buck world is not very good in my area when 85% are yearlings, yes % wise that's 85 out of 100. Maybe it's higher than that. The DNR said my buck was the largest they had seen so far as of Monday, I said that is pitiful because I thought I had a decent one, but hearing that what a disgrace we are hammering immature bucks, heck I'd like to tranquilize them, cut there horns down to 2"s. Give them a chance, most of you don't need the meat.

[vister]

I think what musky is trying to say, is that in order to have healthier, larger, more mature game, people first have to learn to be selective. let those little fish swim another day, and little bucks a chance at next year. QDM should be called QGM, or quality game management. I'll be the first to admit i'm a trophy hunter.

When my passion is hunting, and i do a lot of it, yeah I am looking for a large, mature buck. regardless of whether or not I bag him, I still will take a doe the first good chance I get.

For most of us to say that we don't want to shoot a big buck, or catch a 30" walleye because we want them samller, would be a lie. And when hunting and fishing are your 2 favorite things in the world, you learn to be selective knowing that in time, everything will get bigger, if given the chance to swim, or walk another day.

[BobT]

So if you're a trophy hunter that merely wants to see large bucks and prefers to take does, why bother hunting bucks at all? You can enjoy your passion 365 days a year with a camera. Let us enjoy our passion for 9 days a year and in my case, it's usually 3 days a year if I can get the time off.

Bob

[vister]

I'll take a doe in the sense of good deer management and for the freezer. Mature bucks are great to see in the wild, especially behind the crosshairs or the glow of a fiberoptic pin!

I do have cameras out year round. and i can honestly say i haven't had a buck on film for two months or better. Does and fawns, which look funny this time of the year with their poofy heads from winter coats trying to stay warm.

for me, its just not seeing quality game, but getting a chance to harvest them that makes it that much more exciting. Not many people get excited seeing big bucks or big fish on tv. But wait till they/you see them on yours or the neighbors property. knowing that YOU may have a chance at them makes you glad that you know something has been done right. chances are it was that fork that wasn't "good enough" to take 2 years ago.

[96trigger]

Quote:

Are you taking this crusade to other animals? How about the age structure of pheasants? I doubt that you would find very many 2 year old roosters in Minnesota or any other state. Why are we hammering immature pheasants?

If you are going to go that route, why don't we shoot the hen pheasants? Why don't we fish walleyes while they are spawning? Why do we have limits of ducks and geese?

Why aren't some of you mad that you can't shoot as many deer, ducks, pheasants as you like? After all, it should be your right to, you bought the license, you pay taxes. Who needs bag limits?

I can't believe that in the spring we can only shoot one tom turkey with a visible beard, only the hens present themselves to me. How can the DNR tell me that I can only shoot a Tom when I only get shots at hens. Its not fair.

[Big Dave2]

Quote:

Are you taking this crusade to other animals? How about the age structure of pheasants? I doubt that you would find very many 2 year old roosters in Minnesota or any other state. Why are we hammering immature pheasants?

If you are going to go that route, why don't we shoot the hen pheasants? Why don't we fish walleyes while they are spawning? Why do we have limits of ducks and geese?

Why aren't some of you mad that you can't shoot as many deer, ducks, pheasants as you like? After all, it should be your right to, you bought the license, you pay taxes. Who needs bag limits?

I can't believe that in the spring we can only shoot one tom turkey with a visible beard, only the hens present themselves to me. How can the DNR tell me that I can only shoot a Tom when I only get shots at hens. Its not fair.

Your logic on Deer management is exactly backwards from the management of about every other species that you mentioned.

The pheasants, spawning walleye, and the turkeys you mentioned are managed to create a larger population of said animal so that more hunters have an opportunity. We protect the female of each of these animals so they can keep breeding and producing offspring.

I am not against bag limits on any game animal, where did you get that?

What you seem to propose is the obliteration of does because they are not "worthy" of trophy status so that you can create a uphoria of hunting for a select few while a large percentage of hunters go without opportunity because there are less deer in the woods to shoot.

What do you think happens to the doe population if all of a sudden most of the bucks you see are off limits? Everyone will do exactly what you are proposing and shoot does. Then where does your next generation of large bucks that you are coveting come from? All you will have in the woods is a bunch of bucks with huge antlers but no does to breed.

[96trigger]

That is not what I was proposing at all, I am very familiar with the need of a balanced doe to buck ratio. What I was getting at is that there are regulations for everything to help the species and population. A balanced age structure helps the population of whitetail deer and we do nothing for it. Many on here are also afraid of, GASP, more regulations when there are already regulations that tell us what to shoot, how many, male, or female, so why on earth should it be the end of the world and an infringement upon your rights if there are a few more?