Antler Point Restrictions

[Musky Buck]

Is AR working in the Itasca State Park or has it been to short of a study period to make an educated guess ? This'll fire ya up. How about the first 4 days of the 9 any buck is legal. The next 5 days are AR. So you can get the any buck 4 day tag or the 9 day AR buck tag. Hmmm.

[96trigger]

I for one, don't think every one will be able to harvest a trophy buck if we go to AR. However, I do believe that it will not have the desired impact. If there was a way to save all the 1.5 year old and fork horn bucks without doing AR, I would be all for it, it would suck for one year, then I don't think we would hear many complaining. I don't have any idea how we would enforce it except to say no shooting baskets or forks, but I know that it would be virtually impossible. I do believe that AR will get a lot of small basket racked 8's with the most potential blasted.

Last year, my cousin shot a bruiser, but his rack was very odd and unsymmetrical, he had enormous mass and main beam length, and one side was very nice, the other was nice but not great. Hard to describe but we figured that it was a scrub buck that just got old (about 5 years). It green scored 140. It is now on his wall and might be the biggest buck he shoots. Moral of the story, I think any buck in this area that can get to 4 or 5 years old, can turn into a trophy like this one did. I just don't know if AR is the answer. I think education is better.

Also, I hunt mainly public land, and it is on the public land that I would like to see AR take place more than private. I think you have it backwards. On public land, many of the little bucks I see all fall bowhunting get blasted during firearm season by the hords of people that surround whitewater.

[Getanet]

Chub, I agree with you. If everyone is shooting trophy bucks, eventually it wouldn't be that special to see, or harvest one.

Even if the DNR were to implement some QDM methods and it's successful (two big ifs) where does it end?

We all know that hunter's appetite for seeing bigger deer and racks will never be satisfied.

[Bear55]

Chub, I agree with you. If everyone is shooting trophy bucks, eventually it wouldn't be that special to see, or harvest one.

This argument doesn't hold any water, just because there are more big bucks around it does not mean everyone will be shooting them and that its going to take away from the experience. Just ask some of the guys who live in areas that practice QDM, a mature buck is anything but gaurenteen. All we are asking for is a few changes to give people a realistic chance to see and harvest a mature buck every once in a while.

I agree that AR's probably aren't the answer but at this point I would say any change is good change, even if its only for a short time.

[lichen fox]

In the begining....God created man and the whitetailed deer...Hitler tried to control the genetic future of man and failed....now man wants to control the genetic future of deer...

[DaveT]

You're right Fox, I am the Antler Nazi. No more soup for you!

[Bear55]

In the begining....God created man and the whitetailed deer...Hitler tried to control the genetic future of man and failed....now man wants to control the genetic future of deer...

All I really want to control is the age. On the other hand ust imagine if we could genetically alter deer so they are born at the ripe old age of 4! However I don't think the does would think its that great of an idea.

[Musky Buck]

Not everyone will be blasting trophy bucks. I'm a huge QDM guy because if I need meat I'll buy beef, venison is just a luxury to me. QDM is no guarantee for each of us, but many in the area will tag a good buck, we just share the wealth so to speak, some years it's me, some years the neighbors get some big boys, some years it's quite a few of us and some years maybe hardly anyone. But, it sure is nice to see a bachelor herd in the summer that is made up of quality bucks and not bucks that will shave for the first time. If anyone can afford the internet you don't apparently need a deer or your priorities are skewed. No feedback on 4 days any buck or 9 day season's for AR people ? Let the shooting community brown it's down have 4 days and the AR licensed people have 9. This would allow the thinning still of small bucks or allow new hunters or veterans the choice. If breeding by inferior is an issue what is the peak breeding day, Nov. 9th or something? Start the rifles up about Nov.12th then. This would let the better bucks do most of the breeding, but I get it Amish, then the next season they would get bred by possibly inferior under the AR bucks the next season, I could see that not being the hope. How did we grow trophies in a state with party hunting and a firearms season during the peak of the rut? WE DID sorry DaveT. Pressure and few if any deer sanctuaries is the new concern. As a state of 6 million folks, we can now bow, rifle, musket any or all of the seasons with party hunting, with more days in old zone 4 to rifle hunt with most parcels below a line from Duluth to Moorhead being hunted or having a stand on every corner and in between, I'm out.

[Black_Bay]

Some of the arguments concerning genetics are way over blown here and there have been many what if's. Mississippi and Arkansas had deer herds that went through human caused population bottle necks that resulted in herd sizes of maybe 1000 animals statewide. In fact Arkansas had only a few hundered deer. There's not much genetic diversity that comes from a few hundered animals. So to compare places like that to Minnesota is a grapes to watermelon comparison. Minnesota's statewide herd never has gone through that. The herd in the southwest has very small but was rebuilt in part by new animals moving in along with enacting stricter game laws. Our herds have, for the most part, been strengthened by mother nature. Meaning the strong survive following hard winters. Our subspecies Odocoileus virginianus borealis, the northern white tail, and probably some Odocoileus virginianus dacotensis, the Dakota/Northern Plains white-tailed deer, are the largest of the 17 subspecies and are capable of developing some of the largest antlers. The genetics are here now. As far as small racked mature deer destroying the genetics of the herd, well that's just rediculous.

The following exert is from a paper also from Mississippi State. MULTIPLE PATERNITY IN WHITE-TAILED DEER (ODOCOILEUS VIRGINIANUS) REVEALED BY DNA MICROSATELLITES

Randy W. DeYoung*a, Stephen Demaraisa, Robert A. Gonzalesb, Rodney L. Honeycuttc, and Kenneth L. Geeb

aDepartment of Wildlife and Fisheries, Box 9690, Mississippi State, MS 39762 (RWD, SD)

bSamuel Roberts Noble Foundation, P.O. Box 2180, Ardmore, OK 73402 (RAG, KLG)

cDepartment of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University, College Station, TX 77843 (RLH)

"The occurrence and rate of multiple paternity in a free-ranging deer population probably depends upon population demographics. Male reproductive success in cervids is influenced by male social rank (Clutton-Brock et al. 1982; McElligot and Hayden 2000). McCullough (1979) suggested that males probably do not achieve the social status required to breed until they are physically mature, after 3.5 years of age. In populations with a balanced sex ratio and diverse age structure, male white-tailed deer are thought to maintain a strict dominance hierarchy in which physically mature males dominate immature males. A small number of dominant males probably possess breeding rights (Marchinton and Hirth 1984) and may displace subordinate males that are tending females. Subordinate males are thought to achieve reproductive success only through surreptitious fertilization or kleptogamy. However, in populations that lack physically mature males, yearling males may breed without establishing a formal social hierarchy (Ozoga and Verme 1985), thereby increasing the likelihood that an individual male will sire offspring."

Basically the 3.5 year old + bucks are the ones doing a vast majority of the breeding in balanced populations, like the ones that AR can help recreate. In unbalanced populations 1.5 year olds will breed BUT that does not mean that inferior genes are being passed on. Some are way too worried about the tiny fraction of a percent of the herd that may have inferior genes doing the breeding. As I've posted before you can't see genes. No one can tell how big a rack a 1.5 year old will have in later years. There are more than genetics that determine rack size. This year may well prove that just due to the hard winter in the northeast part of the state. Bucks that may have sported say a 170 inch rack may be lucky to be 130 due to the fact that they are putting energy back into gaining weight rather than a large rack.

Guys are also worried about 1.5 year old 8 pointers getting shot because of AR. Well those same deer are getting shot now so that wouldn't change. IMO the only real compromise the DNR can make between the way deer are managed now statewide and managing for a more balanced herd with older age deer statewide is through antler restrictions. Any other management strategies are either now applicible statewide, EAB, or would result in the reduction in hunters, buck lottery. The way things are going this year it would not suprise me if some areas in the northeast are bucks only. There's no way EAB could work in that situation and a buck lottery would not allow many people to hunt if they didn't get a license. Antler restrictions would still allow the herd to come back after hard winters and still allow people a chance to hunt along with the intended purpose of balancing the age structure of the herd.

One more thing. I'd like to see one paper on how slot limits have hurt fish genetics.

[B. Amish]

One more thing. I'd like to see one paper on how slot limits have hurt fish genetics.

[james_walleye]

Dude you are totally missing his point. Just because a year and a half old has an 8 point rack doesnt mean he has better genetics than a fork horn. Its common knowledge that genetics don't show themselves at 1 1/2 years old. The determining factor in a 1 1/2 year old bucks rack is when he was born and how he got through his first winter. The bottom line is the MN deer herd has genetics so superior that pretty much any buck given the time will develop to 140". And how do i know the MS deer herd has subpar genetics? I do alot of reading, i wouldnt throw that out if it wasnt true. The MS and AL deer herds have subpar genetics. In MN your average 3 year old buck is going to be in that 130" range. Some might be 125", some 140". You don't see 3 year olds forkhorns in MN, it doesnt happen. In MS you don't have a typical 3 year old. You'll have some nice 8's and 10's and a whole load of mutant forkhorns and 6 pointers as well. Yeah if those deer are protected and allowed to breed your going to have a mess. Again, a genetically inferior 3 year old in MN will be an 8 pointer that is 125" rather than a 10-pointer, and if you want to harvest this "genetically inferior" deer you can under AR. And how about this nugget, for every random inferior buck that may get through and allowed to breed at 2 or 3 years old, how many superior bucks would be allowed a free pass to 2 years old and given more opportunities to breed, opportunities they are not given right now. You absolutely can't compare MS and MN.

Also again, AR wouldnt be suitable for the whole state of MN. In my mind would have a nice impact in some parts of the state. Other parts of the state you can't ask people to pass up a 6 pointer when it might be the only deer they see in a 9 day season.

[Getanet]

James Walleye, can you clarify where you sit on this issue. Are you for AR, against AR, or for AR in certain parts of the state? I've read your posts and I'm uncertain.

Personally I'm against AR. Mainly because I think there are enough rules and regs as it stands. But I also feel the habitat in MN is too diverse to establish any QDM rules across the entire state.

Where I hunt in the east-central part of state my group has seen more and bigger bucks in recent years, and while I can't give you a specific reason, I'm confident it has nothing to do with any QDM practices.

[Bear55]

Well said guys. Maybe something like this would work.

Intensive Harvest Area - AR + No Buck Party Hunting

Management Areas - No Buck Party Hunting

Lotto Areas - Brown Its Down

[B. Amish]

Dude, I do see his point and I fully agree that you can't judge 1 1/2 year old genetics on antlers alone. But, when two bucks born at the same time and live through the same growing seasons and winter seasons end up with different sized racks for their first year, you don't think genetics has anything to do with that?

Are you sure we don't have some bad genetics in MN? Have you never seen an older buck in MN without brow tines? I would call that a inferior genetic characteristic.

[Bear55]

Where I hunt in the east-central part of state my group has seen more and bigger bucks in recent years, and while I can't give you a specific reason, I'm confident it has nothing to do with any QDM practices.

I've noticed something similar to what you are seeing in the northern bigwoods about 5-8 years ago. Suddenly there were a few big bucks around, I attribute it the larger population we have seen the past decade or so, if there are that many deer a few bucks might actually slip through the cracks. Since then some of us saw what was possible and decided to lay off the young bucks and things have been ok, we are on public land so its not easy. We've gotten a few more big deer but most of the time our neighbors take care the little guys we pass up. The bucks are alwasy on the move during the rut so the deer you are seeing could also have been passed up by people practicing QDM several miles away.

[james_walleye]

Lets say i wouldnt be against it where i hunt in SE MN. I believe the deer population is strong enough where it shouldnt be a big deal to let a year old 6 pointer walk by and shoot a doe for the freezer. What i discovered where my new permission is though is that there is a whole load of people doing this anyway, and amazingly to me alot of these people actually are passing up 125" deer. Getting rid of the old bucks only season really helped zone 3 IMO. People now have the option to shoot a doe for the freezer rather than eventually having to just shoot a buck to put meat in the freezer.

I don't have a problem with more rules and regs. IMO hunters should take a little repsonsibility and read a rules and regs book before stepping foot afield rather than pleading to the DNR to make things easier. If a reg is put in place by the DNR that will help the deer herd than i feel they should do so.

As much as some people didnt like the all season license, i believe one thing it did in many areas was let more young bucks survive to 2 years old. I know alot of people used to shoot the first buck they saw but bought this license and took a doe and waited it out for a mature buck. Common sense says this should have allowed for more young bucks to get by to maturity.

[Bear55]

Dude, I do see his point and I fully agree that you can't judge 1 1/2 year old genetics on antlers alone. But, when two bucks born at the same time and live through the same growing seasons and winter seasons end up with different sized racks for their first year, you don't think genetics has anything to do with that?

Are you sure we don't have some bad genetics in MN? Have you never seen an older buck in MN without brow tines? I would call that a inferior genetic characteristic.

I just feel that genetics is the least of our worries, right now what percentage of our bucks reach 4.5+ year old, maybe 1-2%? I'm not sure but I know across most of the state its not very many.

[B. Amish]

You're probably right. I just don't want to go down a road that may someday have a negative impact on such a great animal.

Whant MN has for potential is just flat out amazing. But, I've seen some great strides in how people treat the young bucks in my area in just the last 5 years. I think there's hope that we don't need AR's to get the common goal that a lot of us are seeking.

[tazmn01]

It would be nice to see some sort of restriction on bucks in some areas. In the west metro where we hunt mainly it is usually the brown it is down attitude. Numbers over anything else. It has been tough to take my ten year old out and pass on spike and fork horns only to have someone else show us the same deer while complaining about no BIG deer around. I guess we look at taking young deer like keeping 4 inch sunnies if you need numbers to be Outdoors person go ahead there is nothing we can do about it. If you need meat there is plenty of does. I remember when shooting a fork horn or spike was a mistake and the amount of ribbing you got kept you from taking one. Times change.

[Black_Bay]

Right now my biggest concern is a WSI in International Falls of 146. The next time it's measured on March 15 it will probably be 156. I'm betting it will top 180 or at least be close. If this winter holds on I bet we're looking at least at antlerless permits if not bucks only instead of a managed area.

[Rippinlip]

How about this,

Archery hunting from September to December (like now), 1 tag either sex.

Gun hunting, state wide, November 21st only, 1 tag only, 150" buck or doe fawn only.

Muzzle loader, state wide, December 19th only, 1 tag only, 145" buck or doe fawn only.

JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!! I do not want everyone to bow hunt.....

[james_walleye]

I guess the problem is if you see a forkhorn and an 8-pointer together how do you know they have gone through the same growing season and got through the previous winters the same. These are 2 huge factors. A buck born a couple weeks earlier than the next has a huge advantage and can single handedly be the difference between being a forkhorn and being bigger. And just because 2 bucks survived the same winter in the same county doesnt mean they came through the winter the same. The genetically superior buck may have not had the same nutrition as the next buck. Again, this could be the difference in a fork and being a 6 or 8 pointer. There is a reason the number one rule for those that practice QDM is to let young bucks walk. Its because there are to many factors in why a young buck has the rack he has and nothing can be taken away from that first rack as far as potential.

There is a large difference between MN having the random 3 year old 6 pointer with missing brows and MS having half their bucks with genetics that won't let them get passed 4 or 6 points. I mean really, how often do you see a MN mature buck with missing brows. That random MN 6 pointer being allowed to breed is much different than protecting half a deer herd from being harvested, when that half is genetically inferior. Its not rocket science, of course thats going to be a mess.

[RuttenBuck]

Whant MN has for potential is just flat out amazing. But, I've seen some great strides in how people treat the young bucks in my area in just the last 5 years. I think there's hope that we don't need AR's to get the common goal that a lot of us are seeking.

I will agree with you that AR isn't the ideal situation and would rather see other changes first. It is too bad that hunters do not do a better job managing the resources themselves. I'm not talking about the hunters who hunt all week and see 1 or 2 deer. I'm talking about the hunters who could have shot 10 antlerless deer before shooting that first yearling buck that shows up and there is a lot of hunters in this crowd out there. Every year though, it seems I find more and more people making the jump to QDM so hopefully this continues.

[PEATMOSS]

I don't own an assault rifle and have no plans to do so, but I oppose most new restrictive gun laws because it is obvious to me that the other side has no intention of stopping their assault on my right to make my own decisions.

Likewise it is with the QDM crowd. I have no doubt that given the opportunity, a certain faction within the hunting community would continue to chip away at the heritage I love so dearly and turn it into a game of antler quest.

[Getanet]

I'm with you PeatMoss.