Humminbird Helix shuts off when starting motor.

[Smokey]

I purchased and installed one of these this spring. Previous unit was a Humminbird Wide 100 (20 years old but still working).

If I have both units powered up, the old Wide 100 will not show any info, but the Helix is fine. If I shut off the Helix, the Wide 100 will then start to show the lake bottom. I assume that is caused by transducer interference, and I am not worried too much about that.

The annoying problem that I have is that, every time I start the engine, the Helix immediately shuts off. I then have to turn it back on, push a few buttons to get back to the view that I want, and wait for the GPS to synch up.

The Wide 100 never had this problem, and still does not have this problem.

Is the Helix much more touchy on voltage sags than the older units? Is there some sort of filter capacitor/diode that I can buy to put on the power feed to the Helix to keep it alive while I'm starting the engine?

The starting battery is a 5 year old Interstate, the engine is a 3.0 OMC I/O. It's always taken a few seconds of cranking to start, but it always starts right up. The funny thing is that it seems as soon as I turn the switch to the "start" position, the unit goes black. I though that perhaps the boat was wired in such a way as to shut off all auxiliary circuits while cranking, but just looking at it visually it doesn't appear to be that sophisticated, it's a 1995.

[Bobby Bass]

Replace the starting battery, had this happen to me last fall and that was the simple fix.

[gunner55]

BB got it right.Our older lowrance will do the same thing if I forget & leave a switch on.Battery is low with too big of draw,starting the outboard,so the gps/sonar has to reboot.

[Pat K]

If you replace the starting battery you may want to look at a larger battery. Most marine starting batteries are group 24. If you do a search here and on other fishing sites you'll find that a lot of people are upgrading to group 29 or 31 batteries or adding a dedicated battery for their electronics because of the added draw of multiple color units on the boat. Unless you make several long runs a day that recharge the battery the group 24's don't seem to have enough reserve capacity for the newer electronics.

[Igor Drackenwolf]

Before you replace your battery, check to see what gauge wire you used to extend the unit to the starting battery.

These new units draw more current. If you research this phenomenon online, what you'll find is that people having this problem removed the old unit, and used the existing wires to power the new unit. The old units were fine with 18, 20, or even 22ga wire extending them the extra distance to the battery. The newer units need minimum 16, most guys say 14, and other guys say use 12, because then there's no question, and if a unit you buy in the future draws even more current, you're covered.

I had the same issue when I switched from an HB 565 to an HB 899ci. I researched, and the solution was nearly universally what I've described. Current-over-distance creates resistance. Resistance drops voltage. HB's newer units require high, steady voltage. Trying to squeeze voltage over distance through thin wire creates resistance; heavier gauge wire alleviates resistance.

Check to see what gauge wire you're using. I'm gonna bet that's your issue.

[Deet]

What an informative thread. Great stuff. I've been having the same issues with my new H'bird, and I believe that it's a combination of an old battery and small wires. It's a large wire (12 ga or larger) coming from the batter to a buss bar at the console, but then a 22 ga. wire from the buss to my graph power wire. The wire can definitely take the current, but I might possibly lose a hair too much voltage. Then when the older battery is cranking the big Yamaha starter, the voltage at the graph is too low to keep it running.

[Igor Drackenwolf]

I've been involved in MANY discussion threads with Wayne Purdue and Doug Vahrenberg from Humminbird, and with these new HD side scan/360/helix, etc units, the power demands are beyond anything people have experienced before, so they run into problems thinking 12v is 12v, regardless of distance and resistance.

In Deet's post, he mentions 12ga wire from battery to buss, then 22ga from buss to graph power wire. The new specifications recommend a complete bypass of any busses or fusebox connections. They recommend heavy gauge wire, directly to the unit, all connections soldered rather than crimped, and the only interruption of hardwired direct power to the unit to be the inline blade fuse at the pos terminal of the battery.

You'd probably be OK wiring into your buss, so long as you make good connections and ensure wire diameter is sufficient. But HB recommends that to avoid any possibility that the unit will power down because of insufficient voltage, follow the guidelines above.

[Smokey]

Thanks for all of the responses. I am going to be putting in a new battery next weekend, since now that I think about it, it may be 7 years old and not 5. Certainly cannot hurt. I'm pretty sure it is a 24 series, I will upsize it to a 27 if they are the same outer dimensions.

As far as the power wiring, I used the pigtail that came with the unit. It was just long enough (6' I think) to reach from the mounting location to the terminal block under the dash. I crimped and soldered fork connectors to the wires, and then screwed them to the terminal block. My impression was that the wires looked pretty small, like 16 gauge?

[CaptainMusky]

If the battery is the same one used for cranking the outboard make sure it's a dual purpose battery and not a starting or cranking battery. You will have better results. All the other advice is good but if you swap the battery go with a 27 dual purpose or larger.

[gunner55]

Good info everyone.

[Igor Drackenwolf]

Thanks for all of the responses. I am going to be putting in a new battery next weekend, since now that I think about it, it may be 7 years old and not 5. Certainly cannot hurt. I'm pretty sure it is a 24 series, I will upsize it to a 27 if they are the same outer dimensions.

As far as the power wiring, I used the pigtail that came with the unit. It was just long enough (6' I think) to reach from the mounting location to the terminal block under the dash. I crimped and soldered fork connectors to the wires, and then screwed them to the terminal block. My impression was that the wires looked pretty small, like 16 gauge?

Yeah, a 7 year old battery is likely your culprit. If you're not extending the pigtail, then direct connection to the battery should be fine. Don't forget the inline blade fuse.

I'm not sure what the factory-install wire gauge for the Helix units. The HD side imaging/GPS units come with an 18ga pigtail.

They only supply the units with wire the size they need to adequately power the unit the length of the pigtail. Any additional distance covered from unit to battery must be heavier gauge wire.

[BartmanMN]

If the battery is the same one used for cranking the outboard make sure it's a dual purpose battery and not a starting or cranking battery. You will have better results. All the other advice is good but if you swap the battery go with a 27 dual purpose or larger.

That is exactly what I did last year. Jumped up from the 24 starting only to the 27 Dual Purpose. I had to trim the little battery tray so it would fit, but I am happy with it. Decided that running the new graph with GPS and the radio and live well all off the starting battery probably wasn't the best.

[CaptainMusky]

That is exactly what I did last year. Jumped up from the 24 starting only to the 27 Dual Purpose. I had to trim the little battery tray so it would fit, but I am happy with it. Decided that running the new graph with GPS and the radio and live well all off the starting battery probably wasn't the best.

:-) Me too! My little 24 cranking battery was having issues as well. Went to the 27 dual purpose and now I have 2 displays at the console along with the stereo, livewell, etc and haven't had the issue crop up since. I had run a dedicated power supply back to the battery bypassing the switch panel altogether, but I like being able to cut the power to the units with the master switch so I hooked it back up "normally".

I am beginning to think I should install a second battery in the back, but I wont do that until I start experiencing issues. Fingers crossed.

[BobT]

I'm not sure I would agree with the wire size comments. Industry standard, to my knowledge, has been a device's voltage rating should be +/-10%. A device that is rated for 12vdc should be able to handle a voltage range from 10.8v - 13.2v.

A 12" length of 18ga. copper wire in a 12vdc circuit will likely experience a voltage drop of about .013v, which is only a .1% drop in voltage. A 10' length of 18ga. copper wire in a 12vdc circuit will likely experience a drop of about .13v, which is about a 1% drop in voltage. Both should be well within the rated specifications for the unit. I suppose these calculations may differ slightly between solid core and stranded wire but the difference would be minimal at best.

The most likely cause of the problem, in my opinion, would be a battery that is beginning to get tired. When you start cranking your engine over, the load on the battery is very high and the battery's voltage drops a little as it attempts to deliver the demanded current to the motor starter. With a tired battery the drop is more significant and if it is dropping below the 10.8vdc threshold of the sonar unit, it might cause the sonar unit to shut down.

Do a load test on the starting battery and see how it does. Remember, to do a load test properly, charge it fully and then let it set for a few hours before executing the test. If the battery is getting weak, it won't be able to deliver the current as it should and this will result in a lower voltage drop across the terminals when you try to start your outboard.

[Igor Drackenwolf]

Bob, I'm only conveying info directly from Humminbird's experts, my personal experience, and the collective experience of dozens upon dozens of other users.

The issue isn't whether 18ga wire can handle the current required to run the HB. The issue is whether it can handle the current required to run the HB AND crank your engine; run other electronics; run your live well; run your stereo, etc.

When all the current is being drawn, and you have extended your pigtails to the battery with 18ga wire, and then you fire up the big motor, the newer HBs will not have sufficient power, and they just shut off.

I'm not saying this is certainly the OPs problem. Sounds like he has an old battery, and has not extended his wiring. But I am saying that a high, high percentage of the people having these shutdown issues with the HB are having them because of insufficient wire capacity.

[CaptainMusky]

The issue isn't whether 18ga wire can handle the current required to run the HB. The issue is whether it can handle the current required to run the HB AND crank your engine; run other electronics; run your live well; run your stereo, etc.

This!

the wire would be sufficient had all those other variables not be brought into the mix. It isn't the drop per se, its the load already on the battery after hours of using the stereo, livewell, lights, GPS, and THEN trying to start the big motor. You can bet the outboard is going to take all the juice it needs to start and to heck with any casualties.

[Igor Drackenwolf]

Exactly Captain. If you go over to bassboatcentral dot com, scroll down to the humminbird forum, and search through the threads for this issue, you'll find dozens. The responses from the HB pros confirm this over and over again. And almost universally, the OP will come back and report that increasing the wire gauge solved their shut down issues.

[BobT]

Exactly Captain. If you go over to bassboatcentral dot com, scroll down to the humminbird forum, and search through the threads for this issue, you'll find dozens. The responses from the HB pros confirm this over and over again. And almost universally, the OP will come back and report that increasing the wire gauge solved their shut down issues.

It would be interesting to see this in person. My 25 years in electrical design doesn't support this. That isn't to say I'm not wrong as I've been proven wrong before but I'm not buying it right now.

If the motor starter is loading the battery to the point that the output voltage is dropping below the 10.8v minimum threshold (or whatever the unit can handle), increasing wire size isn't going to increase the voltage above what the battery is putting out.

The battery is probably on its last leg. Just my opinion.

[Igor Drackenwolf]

It would be interesting to see this in person. My 25 years in electrical design doesn't support this. That isn't to say I'm not wrong as I've been proven wrong before but I'm not buying it right now.

If the motor starter is loading the battery to the point that the output voltage is dropping below the 10.8v minimum threshold (or whatever the unit can handle), increasing wire size isn't going to increase the voltage above what the battery is putting out.

The battery is probably on its last leg. Just my opinion.

Bob, there are many, many documented incidences of this shutdown happening with brand new batteries. I don't know what else to tell you. Making sure your battery is good should be the first line of diagnosis, obviously. But when the battery is good, and the connections are good, and the unit still powers down when you fire up the big motor, your wire gauge is too light.

I wouldn't presuppose to argue with your 25 years of electrical engineering. All I can tell you is what I know from my own experience, and the mega-research I had to do in order to solve my own problem. I learned that I am only one of hundreds who expereinced the same thing, and found a remedy by ensuring that wire gauge was sufficient. The pros at Humminbird concur. When people complain that their units are powering down when the big motor turns over, the first thing they'll tell you is to make sure your extention wire is of sufficient gauge. Almost universally, the original poster will come back and say their problem was solved by increasing wire gauge.

[Hoey]

I moved my Lowrance HDS10 system to a newer boat this spring. Did not have a problem with the old boat, but now the unit shuts-down like described here.

Since I purchased the boat from a dealer, they are dealing with it. I had the dealer initially wire the unit through an auxiliary switch. The dealer has indicated it has to be wired directly to the battery.

I will let you all know what they come up with. Seems fishy to me. I suspect a weak, on-its-last-leg battery problem.

[CaptainMusky]

I would be cautious of going directly to the battery with a GPS unit. I know for a fact that GPS pucks do not turn off when the unit turns off so it still bleeds off the battery BUT, you have internal GPS, so I am not sure if that will be fully shutdown or not.

I prefer being able to cut the power to the unit with a switch. Otherwise when you are rigging, etc you have to disconnect the battery.

[marine_man]

I think there's more to it than, "I bought an XYZ locator and have to upgrade my wire"... I think the reason you see so much variability is due to a number of factors:

1) Battery Condition

2) Wire / connection condition (is there corrosion on a connector under the dash / etc?

3) Accessory battery load - how much other "stuff" runs of the accessory battery or the power bus/ fuse block

4) Number of locators

5) etc...

I would bet that in the right conditions, using the "standard" accessory wire would be enough, but that when you throw in a myriad of other conditions, making sure you have a good battery and upgrading the wire addresses 90% of the problematic boats, and is the easiest / quickest fix to make.

marine_man

[Smokey]

Ok I'm back, this weekend, I purchased and installed a brand new marine cranking/deep cycle battery (group 24).  The previous battery was purchased in 2009 and was a marine cranking only, so it was time.

The first time I started the engine (3.0 L I/O), instead of the unit immediately shutting off, the screen kind of flickered a bit and then shut off.  To make matters worse, it would not power back up until I unplugged the power cable from the back of the unit for a few seconds, it was obviously getting itself confused during the brown out.

As I said earlier, I was using the supplied 6' power pigtail that came with the unit, after closer examination, it appears to be 22 gauge wire, at least that is the size that I need to use on my wire stripper to correctly strip the insulation on it.

I ran 5' of 14 gauge stranded wire directly from the power lead coming in to the fuse block and clipped the HBird pigtail 1' from the end and soldered the wires together.  I turned the engine blower off before trying to crank the engine, there is nothing else drawing current, this is a very simple 1995 boat.

Same d___ thing happens.

I think I either have a starter that is pulling a LOT of juice, or a defective sonar unit.

 

[delcecchi]

18 ga wire is 64 milli Ohms per 10 feet.  Also another 64 for the return. , so that is .128 ohms. 

Humminbird says the current draw is 615 ma, and it is spec'd to work from "10 to 20 volts"

 

 

[CaptainMusky]

One way to possibly notice an issue before you start the motor is display the supply voltage on the GPS unit. I know it is a pain, but you could potentially save yourself from damaging the unit, but turning it off prior to starting the motor if you are not able to cure the issue with the suggestions here.

[Cheers]

was the battery fully charged first ? In the store they have a charge but not 100%