How to start guide service? Help me settle an argument..

[fish_eat_sleep]

A buddy said he was going to start guiding, because he loves fishing and thinks it would be fun to get paid to fish and teach others about the sport we all love. He's 22 years old and has no college education and little realistic business know how/management skills.

I replied saying you need to be certified by the coast guard which costs over $1000 and you should probably have insurance to cover equipment mishaps, guest injury (hooks, fish bites) and various problems that arise. you need a reliable truck and boat with the latest equipment and technology to attract guests and keep novices interested. I get the feeling he thought i was being a jerk and that if you don't have a huge group you don't need any legal certification.

So the big question is... What is the minimum education, training, and know how required for a young guy to guide on nights and weekends on lakes in Minnesota and what start up expenses are required to be Legal. (provided he has a regular weekday job)

Thanks to anyone that has advice or info on this topic!

[delcecchi]

How are his interpersonal skills? How does he do, dealing with the occasional jerk?

I think there was another thread about this somewhere on here. Maybe someone remembers...

And I have wondered if I could handle the stress of trying to ensure clients have a good time. If they didn't catch fish it would really bother me, I think.

[KING]

with those qualifications...find a sugar momma to get through the start!!!

[nofishfisherman]

I believe the coast guard certification is only needed if he plans on guiding federally navigable waters (Mississippi, St. Croix, or border water)

If he is sticking to state waters the minimum he'll need is insurance (don't do anything without insurance)and gear including boat/truck. As for the gear he'll want to make sure his gear is high enough quality that people actually want to use it and a boat nice enough that people want to be in it. There are a ton of guides in Minnesota, most with very nice rigs. He needs to be able to compete with them.

He'll also want to make sure that he has the cash on hand to replace gear WHEN it gets broken. He will be lending expensive gear to unknown people, things will happen and gear will break.

Also he'll need to have the skill and knowledge to catch many different species on many different bodies of water. His clients will be paying good money for him to put them on the fish. If he can't consistently deliver he won't be in business very long. There will always be slow days but he should be good enough to make the good days outweigh the slow days. He'll also need to be able to find the species of fish that his guests want to catch. He can try to persuade them to go after whats biting but if a group really wants walleye he'll need to do his best to find walleye, if they want bass he'll need to find the bass.

The last thing that is absolutely needed before he even thinks of doing this is an awesome attitude. He has to be willing to keep a smile on his face after 8 hours on a boat with the worst human being imaginable. Most people think about the ideal guiding experience where you maybe take a father and young son out. Both are fun to be with and talk to and the fish are jumping in the boat. In reality its not usually that way. He'll run into frustrating people, people who don't listen, people who don't want to be there, people that he can't stand to be around. And he'll be around them when the fish aren't biting and its all his fault.

One last thing...he said he wants to do it because he thinks it would be fun to get paid to fish? Well I hope he knows he's not getting paid to fish. He's getting paid to make sure the client has fun and catches fish. That might mean tending to their every need and never putting a line in the water yourself. Some days you'll be able to drop a line in, other days not at all.

Personally I never want to ruin fishing by making it a job with the pressure of having paid clients on board.

[nofishfisherman]

Of course there is still the details about how to actually run the business. He may be able to get his ducks in a row to call himself a guide but will he be able to bring in business?

Additional things he'll need to think about:

Advertising

HSOforum (almost mandatory in todays world)

Book keeping

Scheduling

Taxes

Possibly forming an LLC

[kfk]

Well said nofishfisherman. I guided for a season(along with a full time job)and in addition to very little money in it, it took alot of the enjoyment out of fishing for me and time away from fishing with my wife. For me, it wasn't worth it.

[Big Dave2]

1. Marketing

[Alagnak]

Correct on needing coast guard (to not look like a hack even if you don't need it on certain waters), insurance, nice boat/truck/gear and extra gear for multiple seasons and breakage, deep pockets, sugar momma, probably taking the fun out of fishing yourself since you rarely fish yourself anymore.

Put it this way- you work at Pizza Hut for the rest of your life- you won't be eating much pizza after a few months. ;-)

I don't suggest anyone does it for a full time job (at least not right away). Unless you won the lottery or are trust fund baby you just can't afford that being your only income.

The best advice to give this kid is to go learn a trade right now on the job or a tech school. Starting working, making a few bucks, live in a good area to guide in (and practice your trade) and start slowly. You need to make a good name for yourself as a stand up guy/sportsman/member of the community and doing some local tourneys, volunteering for kids stuff, etc before you need to prove yourself on the water.

[hawgchaser]

I've talked with dozens of COs over the years - at least half of whom expressed their lack of enthusiasm for hunting (especially) and fishing (less so) after seeing so much of the worst of both "sportsmen's" groups. I would think it would take a very unique person to not develop that same attitude about fishing after working for a while as a guide.

[Alagnak]

How are his interpersonal skills? How does he do, dealing with the occasional jerk?

I think there was another thread about this somewhere on here. Maybe someone remembers...

And I have wondered if I could handle the stress of trying to ensure clients have a good time. If they didn't catch fish it would really bother me, I think.

What took me a while was realizing not everyone is out to put as many in a livewell as they can (at least outside of MN ;-).

Each guest is different and their goals are different and you really need to ask them, read them, and figure it out or you could be working towards the wrong goals for the day.

I've come back to the dock after hot tide bites and everyone else's fish boxes are full with limits and we're skunked. Well- we never dropped a line. If my guests want to video tape a sow brown bear and her cubs all afternoon I could care less. Less birds nests to worry about and no fish to clean :-)

[Ballyhoo]

There is also the resorts on Lake of the Woods, have him interview with them and see if he can get a job. He will figure out if it is for him and he will get a steady paycheck while doing it.

Like Alagnak said, it is not always catching the most fish. You need to have people skills, talk to them, get to know the customer. Some other advise no matter if you are on your own or working for someone else. Be clean cut, wear nice clothes and keep a clean boat. No one wants to shell out a bunch of money to fish in a dirty boat with a smell guide who is wearing a greasy blaze orange stocking hat in July. You only get one first impression.

[slick2526]

Everything Mentioned is correct. I am a team lead where I work and it's hard enough dealing with co-workers with bad attitudes. I could imagine having your boss(client) having a poor attitude the whole day and it not effecting your perspective on your attitude toward the client.

The guides I know are retired and they were always close to starving out. Trying to compete with the big dogs is hard without sponsors. People want the best equipment money can buy and that's 90 percent of guiding is the advertisement. Most people have more money invested in then they will ever make back. It takes a home with more then one good income to become a guide from what I have seen.

What is going to separate him from the well established guides with a clientele that isn't looking for a different guide? What special skills can he offer or guarantees can he make? The ones that don't starve out are doing more then just guiding. They are doing radio show's, and fishing seminars also. To make a living at it you need to be on a lake known for what ever species your guiding and make it your specialty. Pulling you boat from lake to lake and pre fishing all the time will break you with price of gas.

[DrJuice1980]

I spend enough money on my own, quadruple (at least) that... I dont think so.

[mwal]

I had a friend that guided for about 10 years before getting out of it. He said it grew old and the last few years it was repeat customers only. You need to be a people person as mentioned before. You must have all the proper licenses for the water your are guiding. The Coast Guard Cert is need on More waters than you think. It is expensive to get and requires effort to obtain. You also need a commercial insurance policy for your boat and vehicle. Once you take a dollar your boat insurance and vehicle insurance is null and void. If you drive a 3/4 ton or 1 ton vehicle this may make your vehicle have to have commercial plates and be DOT inspected. My son is an inspector for his work and the instructor at his class told how they look for the guys pulling tournament boats with all the stickers on the tow vehicle and on the boat as they are considered commercial vehicle. And as others have mentioned you do not fish at all unless asked to. No matter what you say you will do you will end up trying to catch the fish or position the boat for you. The client always gets first cast to every spot etc. I have had many friend go on so called guided musky trips that were front ended by the guide fishing used water from back of boat. Guides don't fish unless invited. And expect to have and maintain quality equipment and be able to replace as mentioned before stuff gets lost broken etc due to inexperience etc. I have a friend that loves guiding for fly fishing. Loves to take photos and teach people how to wade and cast etc. He has to take vacation to fish like the rest of us. Good luck to your friend perhaps he is one of the lucky ones and it is his destiny in life.

Mwal

[fish_eat_sleep]

Thanks! Yeah personally I think he is too optimistic. I realize there isn't really a demand for young guides with the huge amount of experienced people out there and I don't think he has a clue how tough it would be to pre-fish and keep clients happy. The post about commercial insurance would mean he had to guide X amount of nights per month just to pay the difference in costs. I think all of you reaffirmed my thoughts on this. I think he's in over his head with this idea.

[Down Deep]

I'm not a guide, but I've got years of experiences in both starting successful businesses and failing at some. I've also dabbled in real estate and worked in management of both the public and private sector businesses.

First, I would ask one question "Why would someone pay to go fishing with me?" If your buddy can honestly answer that question and he is satisfied that he can offer a quality service then he should move along with a business plan.

Next I would ask what do I know about the waters I'm going to fish and how can I do a better job finding fish than if my client just dumped his boat in the same water and went fishing. Then I would ask "why would my clients come back"; because these types of businesses depend on repeat unless you are in a mega tourist area.

I would not over invest in my initial startup. There are guides working in MN and surrounding states walking shorelines, shore fishing, using canoes, row boats, small fishing boats, big lake boats and top-of-the-line Rangers and Lunds. I would start with what I had available or spend a few years acquiring equipment so I at least had some decent rods, reels, tackle and a comfortable boat to offer and be smart about what I spent. Investing in good used equipment is a huge money saver. It seems to me that one could quickly over invest in equipment and not be able to generate the income to support the business. Don't become overburdened with overhead and kill the operating budget. Also any business needs sufficient working capitol. It doesn't need to be huge, but 10 to 20 days operating expenses could do for a small guiding operation.

Any business is going to have fixed costs like equipment, insurance, advertising, expendables (tackle, line, fuel, repairs, clothing, and other gear) and capitol expenditures so a guide would have to price the day to cover these costs plus profit. And don't forget taxes. Deciding what to charge is not hard, but one has to be honest about the real cost of the service offered. A guide who is just starting out is not going be able to charge as much seasoned guide who has years of experience, been on TV and other media, and has a big client list. But you still have to cover costs. In other words there might not be lots of profit initially so I wouldn't quit my day job until I was sure I could make it work. There are many guides who do it part-time or are retired and supplement their income with guiding. Failure to adequatly capitalize a business is setting the stage for failure.

And don't forget guiding is not a fishing trip. It is work and you might not to get to fish as much as you think. I've used guides in Alaska who never touched a pole all day.

Another option is to start inviting people fishing who you may be acquainted with, but would not normally go fishing with. These people could also chip in to cover the days expenses. This way you can practice your craft and formulate the client experience you intend to deliver. After all, it's an experience you are selling.

One last thought is that everybody you see on TV and successful guides were once young with no experience or clients. I'll guarantee you one thing is the if someone isn't willing to give something a try, it is guaranteed not to happen.

[fish_eat_sleep]

Down Deep,

I really like your point of view. He is like myself, one of those guys that already owns an obsessive amount of basic tackle and a small boat that is by no means embarrassing to fish out of. i think he has the "crazy" in him since he fishes rain, snow, wind. The part about knowing the water.. he's got his honey holes and I think sharing info on the same lakes he grew up with would kill him inside. The insurance and marketing costs might surprise him enough to think twice as this all came about from an argument about about legal requirements and start up costs but I know he's crazy enough.. I thought id ask the people that know this topic better than myself as I found it interesting too.

[RumRiverRat]

Best way to make a million dollars guiding is to start with 2 million.

[delcecchi]

There are a few guides from the Vermilion area that post on that forum that might provide input as well if inquiries were made there.

[PEATMOSS]

I know lots of current and former guides. NONE of them started out as 22 yr old guides with no other means of support.

I would never throw water on a young mans' dream, but there are realistic ways to go about this. One person mentioned working for one of the LOW resorts. That would be great experience without risk of capitol.

Another idea would be to find a job with copious amounts of time off and guide on his days off. Many really good guides are teachers or law enforcement/corrections folks that guide part-time. If things go really well, one can always dump the day job.

[mallardnwalleye]

Quote:

A buddy said he was going to start guiding, because he loves fishing and thinks it would be fun to get paid to fish and teach others about the sport we all love. He's 22 years old and has no college education and little realistic business know how/management skills.

Sounds like he has what is necessary and is on his way.

The rest is drama.

Tell your buddy good luck and I think he will be a success beyond his wildest dreams.

I've done it to a few of mine and they are.

[Sportland_Bait]

Been in this business my whole life. It can be enjoyable to be a fishing guide but you need to be realistic. It is a tough way to make a living. Very competetive. Insurance- Yes. Decent equipment that will outfit at least three anglers besides the guide. If you are short on cash, buy it used to save money, but make sure it is somewhat modern and most importantly, clean. You will be way ahead if you use the money you make guiding to supplement a full time income. Or your wife has a great paying job and will let you play with guiding. The best way to break into the business is to hang around where the established guides hang out. Bait shops, tackle stores, resorts etc. Make friends with them and offer to fill in anywhere they need you. Being a good angler helps but is not the most critical part of the puzzle. You need to be a salesman. You sell yourself. Hopefully your personality fits.

Jason Erlandson

[Ufatz]

I hear all this "get paid to fish" talk and it makes roll my eyes. Have been using guides in various parts of two continents for a few decades and let me tell you one important thing: if a guide fishes, or thinks he is gonna fish while I'm paying him hundreds of dollars a day, that will be my LAST day of fishing him. You are there to GUIDE....not to fish. I am NOT paying you to fish-I am paying you to help ME fish.

When I had an operation with 10-14 guides, NONE of them did any fishing unless the angler specifically suggested or urged it. I have fished with some of the TOP guides and it is fun, relaxed and enjoyable for the most part, even if we don't catch a lot of fish. MOST of them love their work and their life and are serious about it. Others are just "fish bums" and usually only last a while.

Let your buddy try it. Try to dissuade him a bit, but then let him go for it. But DON'T loan him any money and don't loan him your equipment and be prepared to console him when he learns that sometimes the worst thing you can do is try to turn your passion into your occupation.

And remind him he is not gonna "get paid to fish."!!! LOL

[Old Dewjabber]

I paid a guide for goose hunting ONCE! Him and his buddies did most of the shooting. When asked, if I wanted to book again, I let him have it. Told him I'd pass the word on too!

Wants to make money fishing! win tournaments, have a show!

I pay enough to fish, darn if I'll pay some else to!

[Down Deep]

I disagree with panning a guide because they fish. I think it depends on what you are doing. If you are out on a ocean charter the captain and mate usually have enough to do to keep the boat operating so there is no time for them to even try to fish. If a person hires a guide to take them walleye fishing then it is wise to have an experienced rod master to search for fish especially if the client has little fishing experience. Same for walk-in fly fishing trips. When I hire a guide it is usually when I'm on vacation and have no equipment, knowledge of waters or tactics to extract the fish I'm after. Most of the time I learn by watching the guide go after our chosen species. Once I catch on to the technique I usually am satisfied to test my own skill. If the guide doesn't have to run or row the boat he is welcome to fish. I've had many fun side bets on a catch with guides I been fishing with.