lack of bigger bucks??

[skee0025]

Go to one of the sporting goods store now and seeing them selling 50 pounds bags of what they call deer corn,and every other type of illegal food available.

Just because it's illegal in Minnesota doesnt make it illegal everywhere, many people hunt out of state. You just happen to live or hunt in the land of "No".

[InTheNorthwoods]

One of the things I've learned in the last 4 years running trail cameras is that the big bucks are incredibly elusive creatures, with likely huge territories, very rarely moving during the day.

These are what I consider to be my 'shooter' bucks. Notice the time stamps. I have zero pictures of big bucks during the day in 4 years of running 3-5 cameras.

Each of these bucks were seen only once per year for the last 4 years. Never during hunting season. Big bucks are out there, but your odds of seeing them a) during daylight, and during hunting season, are quite rare. At least in my area. I think when the first sign of hunting season rolls around they head to the thickest swamp they can find, and don't come out.

I believe you are partially correct. Big bucks are definitely elusive creatures in pressured areas. But I don't believe that all, or even most, big bucks live in large territories.

A lot of research (and experience) has shown that big bucks often have very small core areas. This leads to their elusiveness, as the big bucks may not step foot outside of their core areas but for rare occasions (i.e. hot does, food, human pressure). Obviously not all big bucks are the same, but I would suggest that their elusiveness is as often related to having a very small core area (or areas - often deer will have different core areas during different times of the year) as it is related to a buck having a large territory. A lot of this has to do with the type of habitat in an area, and the amount of pressure from predators and other mature deer.

The bottom line is that in MN, most mature bucks have felt human pressure and have not lived to maturity by being stupid. They are flat out conditioned to move when the pressure is the least, or at times, not move much at all. There needs to be a reason for them to be on their feet (sex, hunger, or flight from danger).

[chasin_walter20]

I must be one of the lucky ones and still getting pictures of big mature bucks. With last year being the first year that I can recall being HC we decided to manage our herd and take out a few 2.5+ year old 4-6pt bucks that would never grow into "shooters" and also take a few does in the process. This year we have several 140+ class "shooters" along with two monster B&C bucks that should gross 170+. QDM works if you just have a little patience and self discipline.

[Gofishleech]

Cant wait to read your deer season report!!

[Gofishleech]

I have access to 160 acres that I have been able to do food plots and monitor with trail cams for about 7 years now. Every year that I can think of I have had decent mature bucks visiting the mineral stations and food plots on this property. Not this year. I also live in the area and am on the roads often and have not seen any big antlered bucks. I am no expert but it would seem to me that the late spring and long winter would have to have some effect on antler growth. We don’t have any crops anywhere near and these are big woods dear for the most part. I do agree with some of the post about bucks being ghostly but I have not had the lack of these deer in the past on trail cams. I don’t ever kill one either but my own short comings. The pic below is obviously a mature deer but lacks in head gear. The shot was at a mock scrape about a week ago and he has not returned nor did he make it to the mock scrape as many smaller, younger bucks have.

Hunting pressure and management is a whole other issue. The area I speak of has heavy hunting all around it and I mean meat hunting pressure. Along with that, 160 acres is not manageable in its location to public and private land being used to harvest meat. With both those scenarios there normally is still a couple of 3 or 4+ year old bucks in the area. I have only the one in the pick which I’m guessing is at the very least 3-1/2, more likely 4-12 or older. Oh I’m sure plenty of big antlered bucks will be taken around the state but I think there will be less than years past.

Couldn't get pic up,,sorry

[CANOPY SAM]

Not seeing many big bucks? Well, take into consideration we're primarily talking about Minnesota.

I was just thinking the other day how few deer hunting shows we see on TV that are shot in Minnesota. Not many at all. Kansas, Iowa, Nebraska, Illinois, Texas, Canada, a lot of states and provinces around us, but not many are shot here?

Funny thing too. You'd really think our state would be the epicenter of big buck territory.

I don't intend to open a big can of worms here, but I think there are some obvious reasons why we don't see as many big bucks as we used to. That said, last winter was a LONG, COLD, SNOWY winter, and it certainly could have knocked down the number of big mature deer following an active rut last fall.

[SmellEsox]

Its the elephant in the room CANOPY SAM. We all know why there is a lack of big bucks in MN and lack of hunting shows filmed here. Heck, there is a lack of non-resident hunters period because of it. Who honestly would hunt here from out-of-state unless you had friends or family here. It probably isn't the deer herd that would get you here.

And I'm not buying the tough winter/small rack theory. Bucks had huge racks in the past when we had tough winters every year. They still browse in the northwoods just like they always have. Plus now there are food plots to chew on.

[slimngrizzly]

MN is the epicenter of big buck territory. MN has as much or more potential than any other state in the Midwest. Our bucks simply don't live long enough to notice it, period! The few that slip through the cracks, they get huge fast.

[Getanet]

I was just thinking the other day how few deer hunting shows we see on TV that are shot in Minnesota.

Canopy, the next time you watch a hunting show be sure to pay attention to who they thank for hosting them, or watch when the credits role. Then look up the name of that outfitter on the Internet. In the vast majority of cases they are hunting highly managed preserves/ranches that charge $5K plus to hunt. It may be a "fair chase" hunt in that it's not a high-fenced property, but it's hardly a typically situation for most hunters. MN doesn't have many of these (thankfully), hence the lack of hunting shows here.

[CANOPY SAM]

I wasn't thinking that the long cold winter caused mature antler growth to stunt this year. I was thinking, just maybe, that perhaps a number of the big mature deer, worn down badly following a long season of rutting, fighting and chasing last fall, just didn't survive the long cold winter? It happens.

It's just a theory, but I do agree with the above statement regarding too many young bucks being shot in our state.

[CANOPY SAM]

Keep in mind, the winter of 96'/97' nearly completely wiped out the entire deer herd in the northern 1/3 tier of the state.

Last winter wasn't that bad, but it was a long one, we had some continuous long sub-zero temps, and a lot of deep snow. And it seemed like spring, and just a little warm weather would never come. It was a really, really late spring. At least up here. First time I can EVER remember when most of our lakes north of HWY 2 were still locked up solid with ice on the fishing opener.

I haven't been out lookin' around, so I can't speak from any direct observation. I've got a good friend that spends a ridiculous amount of time out driving around looking for deer, and he's been seeing an average number of nice bucks. There's still so much corn standing though, it's impossible to say what's really out there.

I'm just thinking out loud.

[sticknstring]

It's a numbers game. Low deer population equals fewer mature bucks. Low numbers also force hunters to be less picky which drives up yearling buck harvest. Again, fewer mature bucks. Standing corn can make a huge impact though.

[harvey lee]

I have not kept track of every buck I have pic's of over the years but I have had about the same sized bucks for the past 3 years or so locally.

As Far as large racked deer, I would much rather hunt a place like the Milk river in Montana and states like Iowa, ILL and Indiana and some parts of Canada.

The 2 years I hunted the Milk river area in Eastern Montana, I have never seen so many very nice bucks. Too bad the licenses are as much as they are. love to hunt that area every year.

The area we hunt in ND is also really down on the larger bucks. They had some bad winters and wet springs and the deer herd took a hit. It is coming back but very slowly. The hunting pressure is about the same every year and on the land we hunt, we do not harvest smaller bucks. if they are not close to 125 plus racks, we let them walk.

I do agree stick that the corn in the field can play a huge role.

[deerminator]

Google a 2009 Star Tribune article "Border Battle Over Deer: Wisconsin Wins" with Lou Cornicelli in it. Lou wasn't being negative but just a realist when he explained Wisconsin's habitat is more productive. It produces more and bigger deer. It's just a fact. My point being, the same with other states that are supposedly better "big buck" states. They have more prime habitat (nutrition and cover) and often their shorter seasons place less pressure on deer during the rut.

I love hunting in Minnesota. I love hunting. And I believe APRs and landowners working together to set goals and limits can sometimes produce bigger bucks. But they're not magic bullets. If there are fewer deer and there is less habitat, you simply aren't going to produce AS MANY big bucks as in places where there are more deer and there is a ton of great habitat. Not sure what else to say.

[slimngrizzly]

Google a 2009 Star Tribune article "Border Battle Over Deer: Wisconsin Wins" with Lou Cornicelli in it. Lou wasn't being negative but just a realist when he explained Wisconsin's habitat is more productive. It produces more and bigger deer. It's just a fact. My point being, the same with other states that are supposedly better "big buck" states. They have more prime habitat (nutrition and cover) and often their shorter seasons place less pressure on deer during the rut.

B.ESS!.... You cant tell me every state in the Midwest has it and we don't... we have it! We just overhunt it, and its because of the rules they put in place that it works that way. No hes not negative, just points the finger somewhere else........... Im just gonna shut my mouth. This will just become a 100 page DNR/QDM thread........... no one wants that

[Musky Buck]

There are a few too many sections here in MN that can't hardly support a deer, plowed black, water, crp that can get hunted for 25 days now by gun+muzzy plus the bowhunter probably arrowed the nicest deer off the section already lol. Party tagging has caught up to a lot of areas and we'll just skim what's left in a few weeks degrading the wintering herd even further, hey it's all good lol. They'll come back or we'll lambast the DNR soon if they don't. DNR you had a nice zone 4 formula, why'd ya ruin that ?

[mntatonka]

There are a few too many sections here in MN that can't hardly support a deer, plowed black, water, crp that can get hunted for 25 days now by gun+muzzy plus the bowhunter probably arrowed the nicest deer off the section already lol. Party tagging has caught up to a lot of areas and we'll just skim what's left in a few weeks degrading the wintering herd even further, hey it's all good lol. They'll come back or we'll lambast the DNR soon if they don't. DNR you had a nice zone 4 formula, why'd ya ruin that ?

everyone blames party tagging, and yet most of the other states we get compared to allow people multiple bucks. so tell me now how party tagging has any bigger effect than allowing a hunter multiple bucks?

[hockeybc69]

Quote:

so tell me now how party tagging has any bigger effect than allowing a hunter multiple bucks?

Easy.

What states allow a guy to tag multiple bucks with a firearm?

MN does with party hunting... and what weapon is by far the largest taker of deer?? The old gun.... Worse yet, its not just 2 bucks per guy in MN,,,, a guy can take 2, 3, 5,,, whatever he wants as long as a tag is available. There is technically no limit to how many bucks a person in MN can shoot.

Party hunting during rifle season is flat out a joke and unnecessary.

[jentz]

The problem lies with hunters expectations,They think a couple short jaunts in the woods with setting cameras should show huge racks.Fact is the deer are smarter than some expeditions! Their there,Some just have to improve their hunting skills.Thats it in a nut shell.

[mntatonka]

Easy.

What states allow a guy to tag multiple bucks with a firearm?

MN does with party hunting... and what weapon is by far the largest taker of deer?? The old gun.... Worse yet, its not just 2 bucks per guy in MN,,,, a guy can take 2, 3, 5,,, whatever he wants as long as a tag is available. There is technically no limit to how many bucks a person in MN can shoot.

Party hunting during rifle season is flat out a joke and unnecessary.

so what difference does it make if I shoot 5 bucks, or me and 4 of my buddies each shoot a buck? Either way, 5 bucks are out of the herd.

[picksbigwagon]

Easy.

What states allow a guy to tag multiple bucks with a firearm?

Easy, Iowa does. We do deer drives, party hunt, cross tag deer every first weekend in December, completely following the regulations that Iowa has laid out for deer hunting. In fact, I am pretty sure Wi and IL allow it as well

[PurpleFloyd]

Quote:

so tell me now how party tagging has any bigger effect than allowing a hunter multiple bucks?

Easy.

What states allow a guy to tag multiple bucks with a firearm?

MN does with party hunting... and what weapon is by far the largest taker of deer?? The old gun.... Worse yet, its not just 2 bucks per guy in MN,,,, a guy can take 2, 3, 5,,, whatever he wants as long as a tag is available. There is technically no limit to how many bucks a person in MN can shoot.

Party hunting during rifle season is flat out a joke and unnecessary.

I lived in the Ashland Wi area for 5 years and still have in laws that live there and we party hunted, cross tagged and back in the 90's you could take as many as 6 deer a year or more. So I am not sure your assertion holds water.

[Gofishleech]

The problem with the party hunting is not so much that itself but the timing of the hunt. Its been this way for years and wont change but you know what happens during the chase period. (normally the first 10 day of November) Bucks are chasing and as soon as their is a hot doe or near hot there will be many bucks fallowing her. A guy can just keep shooting as the bucks come down the same trail, maybe minutes apart. Happens all the time where one hunter can fill many buck tags if he chooses, or has many as he has back at deer camp.

[Wanderer]

I personally witnessed this one year.

Zone 1, and not alot of deer in the area but opening morning I had a hot doe come by with a 6 pointer in tow. Later came other 6s and forks sniffin up the does trail. I took the 5th buck that came through, an 8 pointer. My buddies neighbor took one of the 6s after it passed me. We had 8 open buck tags and I could've dropped every last one of those bucks as they came by 5-10 minutes apart but I only took one.

My buddy's neighbor recounted the story about the hot doe coming through with the 6 that he shot and my buddy told him they passed me earlier at about 15 yards along with other bucks. The neighbor got kinda bent outta shape and asked why I was hunting if I wasn't gonna shoot a deer? My buddy told him to be happy that I left one for him.

I've cross tagged bucks too just so I could keep hunting. The most bucks I've taken in one year was 3. Sure, you let one go and he might get shot - but then again, he might not. I wouldn't have an issue with eliminating cross tagging of bucks. Of course that's how is in Z3 now anyway. NO problem.

When you hit the peak of the rut and land on the hot chase corridor you can do a lot of damage while others are sitting out there a few hundred yards from you wondering where all the deer are.

[deerminator]

Again, it's habitat. If there's some way to buy up huge portions of ag land, plow it into rolling hills and plant mature timber, then close down the hunting season for a few years, we might be like every other state in the Midwest that is a big buck mecca. But I don't think every other Midwest state is a huge big buck mecca. We could always try to increase numbers and big bucks beyond what our habitat can support but that will only last so long before problems arise.