lack of bigger bucks??

[psepuncher]

deer patterns

one thing I can remember are areas where bucks have maintained old historic scrape lines are still there.

Haven't had time to run cameras this year and don't really care to.

The things that bucks leave behind aren't going to change in the foreseeable future. If you have good sized fresh tracks that are large, large rubbed trees, or scat packed like a grenade and sized as a big pine cone then you are in a good spot that a buck is active......

for now.

that right there is about as much info I need tohelp me locate a mature buck

antler size not important, unless I see more than one buck at the same time

so first and foremost for me I'm looking for a mature buck.

Besides with the late winter that went as far as May 5th and antler growth stopping as early as the first week of August, you'd be hard pressed to find one with extraordinary headgear this season.

four to a side just might stink for quite a few hunters as far as APR's go

but this will save quite a few bucks this year.

Lookibg at the drought in TX and as wide an area they have for APR's,

they were number one last year with buck harvest I think.

As far as habitat they don't have anything like we do in as much areas.

[NorthwoodsMap]

I run quite a few cameras over the years, and I agree that I am not seeing the #'s on camera. I am hoping like everyone else that the big boys will show up in the next couple of weeks--> but its not looking good. I think if you are judging a mature buck by antler size this year, you will have to look hard!

Not seeing a lot of sign in the woods yet, but next week or two should pick up for activity! Good luck to everyone!

[bowhunternw]

I have a few nice ones on camera but I do think that there are less around than 3-4 years ago. Seems like then every property had at least one big deer on it, judging by tracks. Now I only stumble across some impressive tracks here and there. A few things have changed since then, overall deer numbers are down and they have lost a lot of thier hiding places. Racks may be slightly smaller than a good growing season but a mature deer isn't going to turn into a forkhorn.

[harvey lee]

I have not gun hunted in Mn for years but, this season I am going out for the youth season with my granddaughter.

I have had 2 cameras up for the past 3 weeks, I have 2 nicer bucks and 1 smaller one and some does, no fawns so far.

I cannot say what it was like the past years but where we are going out this week, seems to be a couple nicer bucks in the area we are going.

Saw some rubs and a few scapes, nothing abnormal for this time of year for me.

This woods is a woods I have never hunted or scouted before so there could be more deer in another section of the woods I have not seen yet and I am sure many are in the corn as very little has been combined to date.

I would guess the buck activity should pick up soon.

[PurpleFloyd]

Quote:

"That only works under the assumption that all small deer are shot. If only a percentage of small deer are shot and all the big ones are left alone, then the age structure would trend up. If everyone only shot old deer and the same harvest rate was maintained the average age would trend down."

Your logic is off. The only way the average age of bucks will increase is if you protect the young ones. The percentage now that make it to maturity are few and far between. So allowing the young bucks to live will increase the average age of bucks out there. The reason we want big bucks is to shoot them, not just to look at them. They will be renewed every year if young bucks are allowed to survive.

Apparently you are of the crowd that still maintains every small buck is hunted down and killed which is wrong and not supported by population data. Just stop and think rationally about this for a second. We have a historic average of about 1 million deer. If every young deer were shot like you say they are, and if none of the deer in the population are mature, as many are saying in this thread, then there would not be the numbers to maintain the population and it would crash. There are mature bucks in the population, there are young bucks in the population. There are enough of both to maintain the population at the levels the DNR has set as the target. if you want to shoot bigger deer they are out there but they are not as easy to harvest as the young ones which is what makes it a challenge. The herd is not unhealthy and they are not sick, dying or otherwise suffering from the way they are harvested. If you want to control the population and the hunt there are private high fence operations that can give you that experience. other than that I would suggest improving the habitat of the land you hunt and have at it. Me, I will continue to hunt knowing that any deer is a trophy and that being able to spend time in the field with friends and family are the most important thing and whatever the man upstairs provides for me will be all I need.

[fishadb]

If you want to shoot a big deer you have to hunt a lot, archery, shotgun, archery, muzzleloader, archery. If you are just hunting the weekend and want to guarantee venison in the freezer you shoot the first deer you see. I always hunt for a nice buck until muzzleloader is over, then I always tell myself I will go stab a doe but usually end up ice fishing by then. During Bowhunting I always pass on some decent bucks not because I think they are not nice deer more because I wanna keep hunting. If a person works at it you can get a big deer they are out there. We always harvest deer that no one knew about or saw on camera. If you are hunting for large bucks only you are not going to fill a tag every year. I got my wall hanger last year after 18 years of hunting and chances are I won't get a bigger one in the next 18, and that is fine with me. I can 't stress this enough though, if you want to get a big deer you need to spend time at it, if a person only hunts one or to weekends a year, the odds are not in your favor.

[SmellEsox]

I'd love to see the age structure data that is out there that you speak of Purple Floyd. I have thought rationally about it. With current harvest trends in central MN, there is no way on God's green earth to have huntable numbers of mature deer. The number of permits given and the harvest numbers do not allow it. The survivors every fall are a few adults and mostly fawns. The surviving fawns are next year's yearlings to harvest. Yes there is the occasional buck that falls through the cracks and makes it to 3.5. If they were there in huntable numbers, I'd see them. I spend a lot of time on the road and in the woods. I've seen more big deer in Iowa in 2 weeks than I've seen in MN (outside Camp Ripley) in 22 years. And that is hunting public land in IA. You can't tell me they are there you just need to hunt harder. When there is one mature buck per 10 square miles or more that isn't huntable numbers. I'm glad you think every deer is a trophy. I love everyone of them too. But not everyone thinks like you nor should they.

[SmellEsox]

fishadb, it shouldn't take 18 years to get a wallhanger in MN. IMO, that is really bad hunting. A guy should get a crack at one every 5 years or so at least and see them every year. Heck, I feel lucky to see a couple 2.5 year olds most years in MN.

[Scott K]

SmellEssox, if you want hunting just like in Iowa, I have a plan for you, go hunt Iowa!

If that doesnt work for you, buy yourself a couple thousand acres, fence it off, then hunt only the ones you want. Imagine all the huge racks then.

But why do you expect everyone else to want to hunt like you do, or to have the same goals that you do?

I have read may posts on here with people shooting small bucks, and doe's, and they are as happy as can be, well, until some know it all comes in and says, how dare you shoot a spike buck! You need to let them grow so "I" can see bigger bucks, and have more wall hangers, because thats is all that hunting is to "ME"

I know a bunch of people that would post their prize deer on here, if it werent for some people that would criticize them, because their prize deer isnt the same as some other hunters prize deer. How about we just let people pick their own goal, and if they are happy with what they choose, then all is good, instead of telling people what their prize should be.

[mntatonka]

fishadb, it shouldn't take 18 years to get a wallhanger in MN. IMO, that is really bad hunting. A guy should get a crack at one every 5 years or so at least and see them every year. Heck, I feel lucky to see a couple 2.5 year olds most years in MN.

I guess that would depend on your definition of wall hanger.

[SmellEsox]

I do hunt Iowa, I'll be heading there 11/9. I wish everyone of you guys would too so you could see how awesome MN could be. Everything you say Scott can be turned around the other way. There are many guys that want to see more mature deer in this state but it isn't happening because a lot of other guys have it "their" way. I don't want to have more mature bucks because "I" want it "my" way. Some of you folks think you'll never shoot a deer again if different regs were enacted. You'd still shoot your deer! It'd just be bigger if it was a buck!

And I'm like 98% of MN hunters. I can't afford thousands of acres.

[Getanet]

A guy should get a crack at one every 5 years or so at least and see them every year.

Do you honestly feel every hunter in MN should have a reasonable expectation of seeing a wall hanger every year?

[muskiemanAD]

I think with the popularity of trail cameras and lower prices everyone has 3 on every 40 now. They also want to see what's out there all the time so they are checking the cameras and leaving scent everywhere. Thoses big bucks won't put up with that and are not there due to the human intrusion. Its cool to see what's out there but doing it at the right times wouldn't drive off the big boys as much. The big boys are still there, their just not posing for everyone like we are used too....

[certified jumbo]

I hope mn doesn't become next Iowa. Now that's scary for the average Joe. Outfitters gobbling up thousands of acres, limited number of tags, hunting that turns into hollywood. I guess not my cup of tea.

Our group harvests pope and young mn bucks every year. Go out and hunt!!

[yakfisher]

Check out the October F&S article about the Dirty Politics of Deer. It addresses some of these issues and who may be actually driving the agenda when it comes to deer.

[Scott K]

I do hunt Iowa, I'll be heading there 11/9. I wish everyone of you guys would too so you could see how awesome MN could be. Everything you say Scott can be turned around the other way. There are many guys that want to see more mature deer in this state but it isn't happening because a lot of other guys have it "their" way. I don't want to have more mature bucks because "I" want it "my" way. Some of you folks think you'll never shoot a deer again if different regs were enacted. You'd still shoot your deer! It'd just be bigger if it was a buck!

And I'm like 98% of MN hunters. I can't afford thousands of acres.

But no one is telling you what to shoot, and what not to shoot. Just because you dont see them, isnt the same as being told not to. I would have to guess the majority of people out there would shoot a 160" buck if it came into them, but some people it really isnt about what is on its head. It really isnt! To me, I personally could care less if it is a 180 pound 12 pointer, or a 180 pound 4 pointer.

[picksbigwagon]

Iowa has what, less then half the deer hunters MN has and better habitat in the big deer producing areas. Population density, hunters and regular people is less in Iowa, Clayton, Allamakee and Winneshiek counties have huge deer for one reason: the best deer area's are harder than snot to hunt. Limestone bluffs and ridges that are nearly impossible to climb unless you are an ungulate make it very easy for deer to never encounter a human until they hear a big bang or slap of a bow.

Limit minnesota deer hunting tags to 250,000 state wide and you would see deer numbers explode and age structure balance in a hurry. Keep the regs like Iowa: firearm season after the rut, allow party hunting and cross tagging of bucks too.

[nonteepical]

I have read may posts on here with people shooting small bucks, and doe's, and they are as happy as can be, well, until some know it all comes in and says, how dare you shoot a spike buck! You need to let them grow so "I" can see bigger bucks, and have more wall hangers, because thats is all that hunting is to "ME"

I know a bunch of people that would post their prize deer on here, if it werent for some people that would criticize them, because their prize deer isnt the same as some other hunters prize deer. How about we just let people pick their own goal, and if they are happy with what they choose, then all is good, instead of telling people what their prize should be.

yeah right, post the pictures and posts with all the scrutiny, if you find one or two shame on those who posted the negative comments on someones happiness of success, then i'll counter it with thousands of posts with positive comments from the members you disagree with on here.

[mntatonka]

Limit minnesota deer hunting tags to 250,000 state wide and you would see deer numbers explode and age structure balance in a hurry. Keep the regs like Iowa: firearm season after the rut, allow party hunting and cross tagging of bucks too.

and we'll have no chance of keeping the deer population in a manageable state, and eventually disease will begin to run rampant through our herd. Granted, that would control the population rather nicely, but definitely not the way we want to do it.

The same old Iowa argument comes up time and again, and my response is always if you like hunting in Iowa so much, then hunt there and leave the rest of us alone.

[picksbigwagon]

mntatonka, I do hunt Iowa, but for family reasons.....I agree, we can't compare anything we do in MN to Iowa or Wisconsin, that argument is pointless because of the holes that are continually shown time after time after time after time after time after time after time.

Move the firearm season after the rut, one buck one buck only, and just educate your neighbors on letting the little ones go, there is no need to implement laws to balance an age structure that no state that I know of tries to balance. Outfitters in Texas (fenced in operations) can balance age structures all they like. It is impractical and impossible for states to do that.

[Bear55]

The lack of bigger deer is all about pressure. Back in the day MN had more huntable land, less hunters and overall pressure than you see today. The habitat stuff can be debated but deer can adapt to just about anywhere, heck there are probably spots in the metro that have more/larger bucks per square miles that Iowa. The Duluth city hunt produces some big bucks too and you can't really say Duluth and the Metro have amazing habitat. A lot of the big buck states are big buck states because of the pressure, Iowa is great example of low pressure. Wisconsin has tons of pressure but they have a higher deer population and more hunters willing to let the little bucks walk, its a mentality thing over there. Great habitat can certainly help and the deer need places to hide but when pressure is sky high unless we let deer walk they aren't going to get some years under their belts.

[mntatonka]

The lack of bigger deer is all about pressure. Back in the day MN had more huntable land, less hunters and overall pressure than you see today. The habitat stuff can be debated but deer can adapt to just about anywhere, heck there are probably spots in the metro that have more/larger bucks per square miles that Iowa. The Duluth city hunt produces some big bucks too and you can't really say Duluth and the Metro have amazing habitat. A lot of the big buck states are big buck states because of the pressure, Iowa is great example of low pressure. Wisconsin has tons of pressure but they have a higher deer population and more hunters willing to let the little bucks walk, its a mentality thing over there. Great habitat can certainly help and the deer need places to hide but when pressure is sky high unless we let deer walk they aren't going to get some years under their belts.

With Wisconsin it's more that hunting land in the big habitat areas is all leased up by horn porn hunters, so very few deer are actually shot in a year. Sure, you can grow a huge buck if you lock up a thousand acres and only shoot one deer every few years, but your population ends up way out of control which causes numerous other problems (such as cwd and other diseases)

[MUSKY18]

This is my second season hunting the property we are on currently, first year running a trail cam. Early in the year (july-august) I was getting pics of smaller bucks and one big 8 that I guess to be 3. Would love to see him make it another year. Since about mid september the big boy (we named him Hollywood because at first he was always on the cam) has only shown up on camera bout 5 times, on the other side of the coin, I have been getting tons of pics of small bucks. 4 different forks, a couple 6 pointers and one 7 that looks like he has some serious potential. Got a picture of the big one standing next to the 7 and the 7 was dwarfed by the big one. Crazy the difference in body size. So...the future looks pretty bright if the young bucks can make it a couple more years. I also have about 3 older mature does that I see regularly on cam that don't have any fawns. Those are the ones I really want to axe. The does with fawns I have passed on. Not sure if the big one left the area now or is just moving in a different area. Scouted a bit in the rain on Friday and found a new scrape along side 3 pines trees that were just tore up like crazy. I think the buck that did it has anger issues or something cause he hammered those lil pine trees. There is a heavily used trail coming out of the neighbors oaks too, so I moved my camera to that area in hopes to see what has been using that area.

I think that one of the reasons that I haven't been seeing as many deer lately is the availbility of food in the area. My food plots haven't hardly been touched yet. The neighbors that border our land to the north have 60 acres of oaks. They only rifle hunt, so i'm sure the deer are up on the ridges eating and sleeping. Also, the alfalfa fields are still lush green and growing. Watched 6 deer make their way out into the field the other night to feed there. Normally by this time, the hay fields are turning brown, beans are out and corn is being chopped/picked making the food plots the ticket. Overall, the entire year has been one crazy, mixed up weather pattern and has had a big effect on the deer. The foliage in the woods isn't down as much as years past either. Had a dow walk behind me about 30 yards sunday night and she was hard to see at times because there are so many leaves still on the trees. Waiting for that first hard killing frost to start to bring things back to somewhat normal.

[Lip_Ripper Guy]

One of the things I've learned in the last 4 years running trail cameras is that the big bucks are incredibly elusive creatures, with likely huge territories, very rarely moving during the day.

2010

2011

2012

2013

These are what I consider to be my 'shooter' bucks. Notice the time stamps. I have zero pictures of big bucks during the day in 4 years of running 3-5 cameras.

Each of these bucks were seen only once per year for the last 4 years. Never during hunting season. Big bucks are out there, but your odds of seeing them a) during daylight, and during hunting season, are quite rare. At least in my area. I think when the first sign of hunting season rolls around they head to the thickest swamp they can find, and don't come out.

[laker1]

Go to one of the sporting goods store now and seeing them selling 50 pounds bags of what they call deer corn,and every other type of illegal food available.

WE as hunters as a peer group have to set forward and say enough is enough,unless you like to just kill animals and watch the quality disappear.

The TIP line is also available if you find these in the woods.