APR 2013?

[PEATMOSS]

well said 96

Absolutely. It was a remarkably civil and eloquent post. Many of us would also argue that it's fundamentally wrong.

The simple truth of the matter is that hunting, like everything else is evolving. Within the deer hunting community, there is a faction of hunters that has, for whatever reason, become increasingly infatuated with big antlers. While big antlered bucks have always been prized by the general hunting public, this single minded obsession with antlers is a relatively new phenomenon.

With regards to APR or QDM or whatever you want to embrace, the bottom line is that these practices amount to managing our herd for antlers. One can cite all the pseudoscience they want about age structures, "balanced" deer herds etc. None of these concerns seem to have existed prior to the big antler movement. Regardless of how much lipstick you slap on this pig, proponents are in fact pushing to manage our herd for antlers and it would be refreshing if a few would just admit it.

One inescapable fact remains in this entire debate, if a strong majority of hunters actually and honestly embraced this belief, there would be no need for a law to force it on everyone. We are all responsible for what deer we slap our tag on and we are all subject to the one buck seasonal limit. We don't need surveys, town hall meetings or legislation. We all could simply vote with our deer tags. Unfortunately, that isn't how we do things in this country anymore. Instead, someone gets a "good idea" and decides they also know what's best for the rest of us.

[MUSKY18]

I have no problem in admitting it. I HUNT FOR ANTLERS! However, I also hunt for meat because I love eating venison. I will shoot a mature doe to fill the freezer and then spend the rest of the season up a tree waiting for the "big boy" to present himself. I also put in some food plots to help the overall nutrition of the deer on the land I hunt, as well as mineral licks. My hope is that I can help the deer to grow to full maturity, and then harvest them. Key word there being mature. I, personally, just don't believe in shooting young deer. If that makes me wrong in some peoples eyes, then so be it. Last year I hunted right up until Dec 30 and never took a single deer. Buck or doe, simply because the deer that I had a chance to shoot were to young.

[TruthWalleyes]

Peat and trigger, well said. Both views explained well. Like surewood said many times, there's nothing new to add here. I don't think means the discussion among hunters should or will stop, but that just shows the differing views.

I know most of you are great stewards of our resources and are passing that onto your children. i apologize for being insulting as I don't mean to put you good folks down.

I just put my 9yo on a plane to her new home in Washington state. Won't see her until after the deer season is closed. Don't feel like arguing much today.

Good hunting.

[NoWiser]

For once an APR thread took a turn for the better. Nice to see! I'd be willing to bet most on this thread could sit down, have a cold one together, and have a great time talking deer hunting and telling stories. We all just want to get out in the woods and enjoy the sport we love, after all.

Sorry to hear about your daughter's move, Truth. That stinks.

[MUSKY18]

For once an APR thread took a turn for the better. Nice to see! I'd be willing to bet most on this thread could sit down, have a cold one together, and have a great time talking deer hunting and telling stories. We all just want to get out in the woods and enjoy the sport we love, after all.

Sorry to hear about your daughter's move, Truth. That stinks.

Very true NoWiser. I'll talk about deer hunting with anyone, especially if ya wanna throw a couple of adult beverages into the mix!

Sorry bout your daughter as well Truth. I know how it feels. When I was deployed to Iraq, I missed 22 months of my kids........it sucks.

[BLACKJACK]

it doesn't cost the DNR anything to have the license agency ask one simple question WOULD YOU BE IN FAVOR OF APR'S WHERE YOU HUNT?

I think you need to go deeper than that. The wording of any survey question can sway the way people vote. 'Do you want to shoot bigger bucks' will draw a different response than 'do you want to shoot bigger bucks even though it means you might not be able to shoot any deer for a few years'.

Of course people would like to shoot bigger bucks but if they realize the consequences they might not.

If you're going to do a survey it needs to be done right.

[BLACKJACK]

Peat and trigger, well said.

Agreed. I can find lots of truth in both posts.

[PurpleFloyd]

Absolutely. It was a remarkably civil and eloquent post. Many of us would also argue that it's fundamentally wrong.

The simple truth of the matter is that hunting, like everything else is evolving. Within the deer hunting community, there is a faction of hunters that has, for whatever reason, become increasingly infatuated with big antlers. While big antlered bucks have always been prized by the general hunting public, this single minded obsession with antlers is a relatively new phenomenon.

With regards to APR or QDM or whatever you want to embrace, the bottom line is that these practices amount to managing our herd for antlers. One can cite all the pseudoscience they want about age structures, "balanced" deer herds etc. None of these concerns seem to have existed prior to the big antler movement. Regardless of how much lipstick you slap on this pig, proponents are in fact pushing to manage our herd for antlers and it would be refreshing if a few would just admit it.

One inescapable fact remains in this entire debate, if a strong majority of hunters actually and honestly embraced this belief, there would be no need for a law to force it on everyone. We are all responsible for what deer we slap our tag on and we are all subject to the one buck seasonal limit. We don't need surveys, town hall meetings or legislation. We all could simply vote with our deer tags. Unfortunately, that isn't how we do things in this country anymore. Instead, someone gets a "good idea" and decides they also know what's best for the rest of us.

[tfran123]

Yep, hard to paint everything with a broad brush - that much I'll agree.

I have a parcel available to me which consists of 640 acres just about 45 minutes south of the metro. About 50/50 ag vs timber. Great habitat. Problem is the local neighbors harvest every legal buck they can - typically they go about 15 for 15. This is the same thing that is happening across much of MN, I run cameras on the parcel that I have permission on and even though the neighbors don't shoot deer on this piece the outside influence of shooting what is the easiest deer in the woods to kill I notice a major imbalance. In fact it is rare to see anything other than does and 1.5 year olds. I remember before the neighbors started this practice and we'd see mature deer quite often, those days are gone and can be said for much of MN, period.

If you don't like APR then I'd suggest a buck lottery or at the least moving the opener off the rut (this part I feel strongly about).

I also hunt in Central MN and we (neighbors included) lay off anything that is an 8 pt or about 16" wide - typically a 3.5 year old or better only gets harvested. The differences in these parcels are dramatic (even though the Southern MN parcel has waaaay more potential), we have balance and everyone has a chance at a mature deer (albeit we don't get but one or two every year for 7 guys).

Appreciate everyone's perspective, again it's really hard to take a rule and put it on everyone but in the end I have a hard time believing more hunters don't want a better chance at shooting a mature buck. And to that end I think this is an evolving process . . .

[monstermoose78]

I was at the taxidermist's a few years back bring my brothers buck in and this old timer was dropping off his buck it was 7 pointer. I would put money that buck scored no more than 100 inches total. He was so excited that he finally shot a big buck. He told me that it took him 57 years of hunting to finally get a wall hanger. He told me the whole story from what he had from breakfast to showing me his grandpa's knife he gutted the deer out with. When the old timer asked to see the deer I was bring in I showed him. He then started second guessing if he should mount his buck. The taxidermist and I both told him that his deer was a good buck and it was his biggest in 57 years of hunting and not everyone is lucky enough to get a monster buck. Who are we to say what a trophy buck is it should in the eye of the beholder.

I have been letting young bucks walk for because I know that if I shoot one of them I will not have the chance to see a big one, but after letting some of those younger bucks walk. It makes me think maybe one of those younger bucks could make some ones hunting dreams come true.

[tracker x-2]

Yep, hard to paint everything with a broad brush - that much I'll agree.

I have a parcel available to me which consists of 640 acres just about 45 minutes south of the metro. About 50/50 ag vs timber. Great habitat. Problem is the local neighbors harvest every legal buck they can - typically they go about 15 for 15. This is the same thing that is happening across much of MN, I run cameras on the parcel that I have permission on and even though the neighbors don't shoot deer on this piece the outside influence of shooting what is the easiest deer in the woods to kill I notice a major imbalance. In fact it is rare to see anything other than does and 1.5 year olds. I remember before the neighbors started this practice and we'd see mature deer quite often, those days are gone and can be said for much of MN, period.

If you don't like APR then I'd suggest a buck lottery or at the least moving the opener off the rut (this part I feel strongly about).

I also hunt in Central MN and we (neighbors included) lay off anything that is an 8 pt or about 16" wide - typically a 3.5 year old or better only gets harvested. The differences in these parcels are dramatic (even though the Southern MN parcel has waaaay more potential), we have balance and everyone has a chance at a mature deer (albeit we don't get but one or two every year for 7 guys).

Appreciate everyone's perspective, again it's really hard to take a rule and put it on everyone but in the end I have a hard time believing more hunters don't want a better chance at shooting a mature buck. And to that end I think this is an evolving process . . .

I also hunt Scott co. and have experienced the exact same situation you described.....

[nonteepical]

Some of you guys are putting way to much thought into QDM. It's providing good habitat, dosen't have to be food plots deer also eat weeds, goldenrod for example deer eat it, along with other undesirable weeds to humans are natures food to wildlife.

Taking adequate number of does dosen't mean a [PoorWordUsage] load, it's whatever the land and population can support(an adequate number), it could be 0 or up to 4 per hunter depending on the population goal levels of the DNR, if you don't think the land your hunting has the population to support taking alot of does, then don't, just because theres "x" amount of tags available dosen't mean you are required to shoot that many.

Protection of the majority of yearling bucks, thats it, only the yearlings, all other bucks are fair game, only trying to recruit more into an older age class. APR is only a tool to protect the majority of yearlings. Other tools would be earn a buck, buck lottery or inside spread of a bucks antlers, APR is just the easiest for hunters to do and thats having to count to 4.

QDM dosen't have to exactly match what was happening in South Carolina, it can be done to any deer herd, in any condition, it's only one step above traditional deer management and is not trophy management. Studying deer in a pen is how every University or college teach our future wildlife biologist, the pen could be 1-500 acres deer social and other behaviors are the same in a pen or in the wild.

Some say deer should only be managed for population, i think it should be managed for population and balance, the way mother nature intended it to be, as close buck/doe ratio and an evenly distributed age class of deer you can achieve.

[PurpleFloyd]

Providing good habitat. That is a good goal for sure. Sadly in the area I live the habitat is getting removed at a very rapid rate by the reduction of CRP and the last few years by an unprecedented removal of tree lines, abandoned groves and other cover that the deer rely on for cover. Not that I blame the people for doing it because they are in it to make the most money possible and tillable land is more valuable than an old grove of trees or a tree line but you can't have a stable population with all that happening.

I am glad that the conversation has at least now moved away from the idea that it is making the herd somehow healthier and just cut to the chase that some guys want to shoot bigger deer. Convince enough other hunters that you are right without the government forcing it on hunters it and you will be in business.

[PEATMOSS]

I have a parcel available to me which consists of 640 acres just about 45 minutes south of the metro. About 50/50 ag vs timber. Great habitat. Problem is the local neighbors harvest every legal buck they can -

I really want to try to keep this thread going in a civil direction, but you just made made me laugh so hard my Diet Dew shot out my nose and all over my keyboard .

Let me get this straight, you have a SIX HUNDRED AND FORTY ACRE PARCEL THAT IS HALF WOODED IN SOUTHERN MN TO HUNT!!! You REALLY want to blame your lack of hunting "success" on your neighbors???

I have typed out and erased about seven really snarky comments here, but I'll refrain in the interest of civility.

[PEATMOSS]

Studying deer in a pen is how every University or college teach our future wildlife biologist' date=' the pen could be 1-500 acres deer social and other behaviors are the same in a pen or in the wild.quote']

Surely you can't be serious . That statement is just so brazenly ridiculous I can't imagine where you came up with it.

1- There ARE numerous researchers that study deer in the wild.

2- Deer, like ANY other animal, behave differently in captivity.

[Bear55]

I am glad that the conversation has at least now moved away from the idea that it is making the herd somehow healthier and just cut to the chase that some guys want to shoot bigger deer. Convince enough other hunters that you are right without the government forcing it on hunters it and you will be in business.

I think things are moving a little slower than most would like so that is why you see the push for regs. For whatever reason a lot of MN hunters just don't seem as ready for change like a lot of neighboring states. I think 3 decades of mostly bucks only has just been ingrained on a lot of hunters and in reality those guys aren't going to change. Several years back a great many old timers thought I was insane for shooting a doe and passing on a couple of 8 pointers.

I think MN will catch up somewhat but it's going to take a little longer. There is no doubt that passing up young bucks works, it is just IF a big enough number of hunters in your area are willing to do it.

[tfran123]

Sure, and glad you think it's funny. Spend half of my time up north and the other half on this Southern MN parcel. During the last 5 years I've tagged 4 bucks of 4.5 years old or older, zero came from southern MN. BTW: trail cameras run 4 months of the year don't lie, the deer aren't there. Go ahead, claim I can't hunt - think the results think for themselves . . .

[Bear55]

Yep never good to assume anything. I've got a few small 80-100 acres areas that always hold mature bucks. Other places I can walk 1000-2000 acres and whole area is garbage, not that you couldn't shoot a nice buck there if you hunted their you entire life but overall it just isn't a place you are going to find older bucks hanging out.

[Getanet]

Spend half of my time up north and the other half on this Southern MN parcel. During the last 5 years I've tagged 4 bucks of 4.5 years old or older, zero came from southern MN.

You've shot 4 mature bucks in the last 5 years in a part of the state where APR isn't mandated, but based on your post appear to support APR expanding. What more could you possibly ask for out of the area up north?

[Jameson]

...I am glad that the conversation has at least now moved away from the idea that it is making the herd somehow healthier and just cut to the chase that some guys want to shoot bigger deer....

Did you mean bigger racked deer?

Otherwise, here in MN, aren't bigger deer generally considered healthier deer? That is why I want some sort of buck management, bigger healthier deer. Fawns that are larger and more numerous. Year old deer that weigh 15 pounds more than they currently do. Two year old deer that weigh 25 pounds more than they currently do.

But, whatever, keep talking about the rack.

[psepuncher]

I think the thought of TX just pains many people.

They bait, they have high fences, everyone owns private land, or

they shoot deer in a 5x7 pen

Heck they also have drought and no lush vegetation in the later part of the summer....ever. And no, you can't bait on WMA's of state land.

MN doesn't have that luxury, so I can see baiting should never be an issue here. But QDM can be a better hunting experience if managed correctly in most of MN.

This year though, we're going to go into a heated back end of summer. The acorns aren't there and the habitat isn't going to support all kinds of kinds of deer. I bet there's going to be an early leaf drop,

and a few dried up watering holes that deer would seek out. Beans are drying at a rapid pace, not turning yet but you can see the leaves are drying more each day at a fast pace.

So as I posted much earlier what are you going to do, to promote a healty herd at this rate? population goals are lower than expected in most areas and we all want a piece of venison. I've always passed a young deer up, even though I've been told in camp to also take the fawn { just dumb IMO }.

So I'll take the APR as a measure of saving a percentage of the deer population that the habitat will sustain to help others save a few young deer that's either buck and some antlerless young-ones and take something more mature.

by the way BEAR55, check the records for nontypicals killed in MN.

I think there were a few taken in the 60's and 70's that were over 260". Doubt I'll see anything close to that in my lifetime.

[Bear55]

by the way BEAR55, check the records for nontypicals killed in MN.

I think there were a few taken in the 60's and 70's that were over 260". Doubt I'll see anything close to that in my lifetime.

I don't think we can say never but they certainly are rare, just need the right combo of age and genetics in a freak buck and you will find one. Lot more pressure on the deer these days than there was back in the day too so I do feels the odds are much lower. Iowa and WI seam to pump out a few of these every year so its not impossible.

[Mo Gator]

PEATMOSS, believe it or not, a deer's home territory often encompasses over a square mile, so yes, the majority of the bucks that use Tfran's land also go onto his neighbor's. And there lies the problem that alot of us face every year - we pass on the young bucks in hopes of them growing up a bit, but then the neighbor kills them with a slug. This has happened to me more times than I count unless I take my socks off. It's very frustrating!

Go ahead and bash my post, but killing a nice buck is ALOT more exciting than killing a young stupid yearling. And I'm out there for the excitement. Oh, and venison is pretty good too, but it doesn't take a yearling to make good venison steaks.

[Scott K]

Seems kinda selfish on your part, no one should shoot a deer, so I can have bigger bucks

[PEATMOSS]

PEATMOSS, believe it or not, a deer's home territory often encompasses over a square mile, so yes, the majority of the bucks that use Tfran's land also go onto his neighbor's. And there lies the problem that alot of us face every year - we pass on the young bucks in hopes of them growing up a bit, but then the neighbor kills them with a slug. This has happened to me more times than I count unless I take my socks off. It's very frustrating!

Go ahead and bash my post, but killing a nice buck is ALOT more exciting than killing a young stupid yearling. And I'm out there for the excitement. Oh, and venison is pretty good too, but it doesn't take a yearling to make good venison steaks.

Thanks. I hear/read this alot. Seems to me that it is pretty solid evidence that nowhere near a majority of hunters care enough about antlers to change their hunting traditions. At some point, your side is going to have to decide which story you want to peddle. The evidence you and others so often cite, would lead most reasonable folks to believe that support on your side is not that high.

Like I've said before, we all get one buck tag. That is your ballot. Use it as you see fit and extend the same courtesy to others.

I've always believed that your side has every right to attempt to PERSUADE the rest of us to go along.Seems pretty clear that your numbers are growing, but not nearly as high as some believe. IF even half of the hunters in any area chose to pass on yearling bucks and fawns, you'd see a change. Your post as well as several others indicates that you've got a ways to go.