APR 2013?

[Mo Gator]

A note on different deer hunting cultures - I go turkey hunting in south central Iowa, got a buddy who has family down there. Their deer culture is so much different than ours. They find it absolutely ridiculous to kill a small buck, as do all of their neighbors. These guys are consistently killing 140/150 class bucks every year. Nothing is regulating them to let the young bucks live, they do it because they know what can and does happen. This buddy has been to my place and laughs at the medicore 8 & 9 point racks I have on plaques in the garage. He said "you actually took the time to put that on a plaque???"

I understand there is less pressure in Iowa than we have here, but the land is very similar to alot of MN farm country.

[flipper]

Guy sounds like a ___________.

[96trigger]

Quote:

Nothing is regulating them to let the young bucks live, they do it because they know what can and does happen.

There is a lot of truth to this statement. This is the way that a chunk of people in zone 3 (and greater Minnesota) think. The inherent problem was that there was too great a population of hunters that absolutely would not change their thinking. Even when asked to, pleaded with, and educated on the effects of letting younger bucks go. Quite frankly, some people just don't care, have had an "any buck" mentality engrained in their head, or they feel that they should be able to shoot what they want. I don't have anything against these hunters, I don't think they are bad people, or bad hunters. I think they are probably great people and very good hunters. I do think their hunting practices were greatly impacting the progress that many people were trying to make for deer hunting in the area. I think enough people, and it wasn't just a few vocal ones, in this part of the state got fed up with it and pushed for the change. Again, right or wrong, it is what it is.

I don't think APR is going anywhere down here for awhile. I think it is helping educate some people that never would have passed on bucks to start thinking about it. I think some people that were totally against it 4 years ago, are now starting to see the positive benefits of it. As much as some people would hate to admit it, we ARE seeing more mature bucks now than in the past.

I'm not taking a poll, but for those of you that want to educate, not regulate, how many of you have taken a small buck in the last 4 years since the debate has begun? Education should work right? So all of you have been hearing about this now for years and you should just know that nobody should ever shoot forks and basket bucks anymore unless you are a kid and its your first.

How many of you know of people that have taken forks? Surely they know that shooting those bucks should be taboo, just like in Iowa, where nobody would dream of shooting one right?

I suppose now you come back and say that its your right to shoot whatever you want. OK I get it, but again, here is the circle of argument, shooting whatever you want, holds up the progress a growing number of people are trying to make, thus, the push for regulation. Its frustrating just thinking about it. It's really a vicious cycle....

[PurpleFloyd]

To be clear- what you are saying in regards to educationis that you are merely telling them the buck will have more points next year than it does this year if you let it walk. Correct?

[B. Amish]

I'm not taking a poll, but for those of you that want to educate, not regulate, how many of you have taken a small buck in the last 4 years since the debate has begun? Education should work right? So all of you have been hearing about this now for years and you should just know that nobody should ever shoot forks and basket bucks anymore unless you are a kid and its your first.

i've only shot one small buck ever (over 15 years of bow, rifle, muzz), and the only reason i shot it was because he was running around with half his jaw shot off. i pass up the baskets every year. i've got a few wall hangers.

but, i'm firmly against apr. at one time i was in favor of them.

what really rubs me is the way trophy elitists talk down to fellow hunters about shooting little bucks. it's all over this thread. at one point i was the same way, then i thought 'what the he77 is wrong with me?' i stopped worrying about what anyone else chose to shoot and got back to flat out enjoying time in the woods for the reasons i chose to be there.

[Scott K]

I guess I dont understand the fascination with racks. I hunt for meat, I dont care what is on its head. I have shot some decent bucks in my life, and you know what, I have never mounted one. I have though, gotten a quite a few that tasted very good over the years, and that is what I hunt for.

A successful hunt for me is a good supply of meat in the freezer, not something to put on the wall. I dont even want a deer mount in my house. So for those of you that want big antlers, dont shoot the small ones, leave them for me, and the rest of us that enjoy the meat.

[mntatonka]

Our entire party of 15-20 people have worked hard to quit taking smaller deer years before APR's were put in place, except the people who have never shot a buck.

At the same time, it depends on your definition of "small buck". To an old timer who grew up when there weren't many deer, any buck is a trophy. To some of us who grew up in the overpopulated ares of the southeast (which some areas still are), the more dead deer the better, regardless of sex. And then there's those who are out for a bigger one every year, and the antlers are never big enough. So who is someone else to tell them what a small buck is?

[mntatonka]

I guess I dont understand the fascination with racks. I hunt for meat, I dont care what is on its head. I have shot some decent bucks in my life, and you know what, I have never mounted one. I have though, gotten a quite a few that tasted very good over the years, and that is what I hunt for.

A successful hunt for me is a good supply of meat in the freezer, not something to put on the wall. I dont even want a deer mount in my house. So for those of you that want big antlers, dont shoot the small ones, leave them for me, and the rest of us that enjoy the meat.

I couldn't have said it better myself. The only thing I would add is "don't tell me what I should consider a trophy".

[96trigger]

Quote:

To be clear- what you are saying in regards to educationis that you are merely telling them the buck will have more points next year than it does this year if you let it walk. Correct?

To be clear, that is a loaded question correct? If I say its for herd health, you tell me the science is bull and that there is no proof etc..etc... If I say its to get larger racks, I'm a "horn porn", elitist, trophy hunter, so whats the difference?

OK Mr. Floyd, how would you "educate" other hunters to get them to pass on young bucks? I'm curious.

I have said this numerous times, if you fundamentally disagree with this because for whatever reason you hate any and all regulations, there will never be any amount of "education" or persuasion that can take place and the discussion is pointless.

I work with kids, and every fall they come in with pictures of small bucks, I am very happy for them. I put their pictures up and post them on a HSOforum and give them a high five and ask them to tell me the story. I won't chastise anyone for shooting a legal deer or look down upon anyone that shoots a small buck when it is legal to do so. I don't agree with it, but they pulled the trigger and need to be happy with it.

[flipper]

Since you want to know 96Trigger, the Truth is I am a doe shooter. I am not embarassed to say I haven't shot a buck but my boys have shot a few of them. Last year I was after one with a really nice rack that was on my land. I could never get close enough to it. I wasn't after the rack, I wanted to put it out of its misery because some trophy hunter took a pot shot at it and blew one of its front legs off below the knee.

[96trigger]

Quote:

I wasn't after the rack, I wanted to put it out of its misery because some trophy hunter took a pot shot at it and blew one of its front legs off below the knee.

Classy statement! Done with this thread.

[flipper]

Classy, Why? Does the truth hurt? I'm not making assumptions because I know who did it. I thought you wanted to know what those against APR were hunting for and why.

[thatoneguy]

Quote:

How many of you know of people that have taken forks? Surely they know that shooting those bucks should be taboo

Why on earth should that be taboo? There are as many different reasons for hunting as there are hunters. Not everyone is into antler p0rn; some hunt for meat, some hunt for sport, some hunt to get away from the insanity of the modern world, and et cetera.

There is absolutely nothing inherently better about managing for trophy bucks and nothing inherently worse about shooting a deer that suits you, whether it's a spike or a doe or a monster buck.

Quote:

I suppose now you come back and say that its your right to shoot whatever you want. OK I get it, but again, here is the circle of argument, shooting whatever you want, holds up the progress a growing number of people are trying to make

Progress? Maybe according to a small cadre of trophy hunters. If that's what you're into, pool your money with some like-minded citizens and buy some hunting acreage. Build food plots, add minerals, harvest selectively, and have a grand old time. But don't assume that most hunters need or want anything remotely like that.

what really rubs me is the way trophy elitists talk down to fellow hunters about shooting little bucks. it's all over this thread. at one point i was the same way, then i thought 'what the he77 is wrong with me?' i stopped worrying about what anyone else chose to shoot and got back to flat out enjoying time in the woods for the reasons i chose to be there.

Amen.

[tfran123]

Since you want to know 96Trigger, the Truth is I am a doe shooter. I am not embarassed to say I haven't shot a buck but my boys have shot a few of them. Last year I was after one with a really nice rack that was on my land. I could never get close enough to it. I wasn't after the rack, I wanted to put it out of its misery because some trophy hunter took a pot shot at it and blew one of its front legs off below the knee.

Now I'm laughing, thanks for that. Wow.

[SmellEsox]

Why is it so awful to change management to satisfy all hunters, not just those that want to get an adequate amount of meat? Is it more important to manage the deer to satisfy the guy who likes the status quo? Should the elitists (not sure which group this applies to, meat hunters or trophy hunters. Seems they both look down their noses at each other) not count? Is the meat hunting group a more noble group than those who would like to see more bigger bucks in the woods? Where should the compromise be between APR guy and meat/status quo guy? Right now there seems to be a lot of hunters unsatisfied with the status quo. Should they not count?

[flipper]

Maybe they should learn that there is more to happiness than a big rack.

[PurpleFloyd]

OK Mr. Floyd, how would you "educate" other hunters to get them to pass on young bucks? I'm curious.

[tfran123]

Most of what you say is on point, would agree with you regarding your first comments relative to "healthier", I'd rather say better balanced. That would be accurate. Otherwise you guys are nitpicking on some subtle matters where it's all in the context. Carry on, hard topic to get agreement on.

[psepuncher]

Anyone can kill a legal buck in the MN APR zones, even if the buck isn't fully mature, or even if their antlers aren't fully developed if that makes sense.

The purpose was to promote an older class of bucks but.....

It's only 4 to a side, so I'm wondering what age will a buck in most cases, develop a set of headgear that meet the restriction criteria?

And if I read somewhere correctly, there's a couple more adoptive APR zones now? ones with 3 to a side restrictions?

What age class bucks are we really talking about being legal to take?

[PurpleFloyd]

Why is it so awful to change management to satisfy all hunters, not just those that want to get an adequate amount of meat? Is it more important to manage the deer to satisfy the guy who likes the status quo? Should the elitists (not sure which group this applies to, meat hunters or trophy hunters. Seems they both look down their noses at each other) not count? Is the meat hunting group a more noble group than those who would like to see more bigger bucks in the woods? Where should the compromise be between APR guy and meat/status quo guy? Right now there seems to be a lot of hunters unsatisfied with the status quo. Should they not count?

[Jameson]

...

Now, as you can clearly read the problems they were having in the south were totally different from what I know to be the reality in my area....

The problem stated in your quote is the same as in much of MN, "the problems — all of the bucks were yearlings (1.5 years old)"

We may have different regs and terrain, but same results, most of our yearling bucks get shot each year.

[tfran123]

Yep, just drive home on Sunday night of opener from the north country and look at all the spikes and forks harvested, it isn't rocket science. A friend of mine as a long timer at the DNR and he also states a 4.5 + year old buck is a rare animal in this state - doesn't help that we center our opener at around peak rut and also allow party hunting.

This isn't a Southern Mn problem only, it's a statewide issue (baring a few remote areas on the very north. Some don't care about it, some do, and that is where our differences sit, period.

Watching ODN pictures does NOTHING to prove a point, sampling is waaay to small to matter and there isn't anyone that doesn't believe there aren't mature bucks in every county - there are.

[PurpleFloyd]

...

Now, as you can clearly read the problems they were having in the south were totally different from what I know to be the reality in my area....

[HandGunner]

if i cant shoot any buck i will shoot all the doe's... because i guess they must think 2 bucks can make more babys, Isnt this like telling a fisherman to not keep a bass full of eggs but in the end either way its always been hard for ppl to break our measily 8 pound record simply because MN cant create a bigger bass or just have not been found so why bother trying to set rules

didnt 2 of the 200 gross score deer come from the south MN last year?

Whatever nothing I can do anymore, why didnt I vote and go to the hearings in the south 300 zones to talk about the issue? I dont know maybe because I live 3 hours away, all I know is theres a small group who wants this goes to vote for it and the past 3 years of this APR I have just been meeting more and more unhappy hunters at the registration stations with just the one legal 8 point or one doe in the truck from weeks of hunting. Atleast I save time not having to talk with other hunters and check out eachothers harvest and chitchat about the hunt, because there is no hunt anymore, If its a set rule I'll probobly find a new area APR free or quit and just get into reloading and benchrest shooting than waste my money trying to hunt, my past season tags are still nice and squiky clean though

[HandGunner]

wait a sec how was it like on this topic before the APR was even braught up as an idea or anything? when it was all just lottery doe or buck managed one buck and doe or 2 doe, intensive one buck 4 doe or 5 doe.... nothing more to the rule than just that what were ppl saying then?