Scopes for ML's

[nonteepical]

When approached by those who wanted to start a muzzleloading season for the experience and challenge, the DNR was against it for fear of over harvest. After several special hunts to test the idea, they concluded that if hunters had to pick a season, a muzzleloading season could be held without negatively impacting the deer herd. The season was opened statewide. One deer any sex even in low population areas. As technology improved while staying in the legal definition of muzzleloader, and the dropping of pick a season, we now have had areas of the state (SW MN) that allow shooting of does by kids with shotguns, but not with muzzleloaders due to concern of overharvest by muzzleloaders. Lou C.himself has said that if increased harvest occurs due to scopes, the reg won't be removed, but instead more restrictions will be placed on what you can harvest, fewer doe permits, or other season modifications.

all common sense. i'd expect the DNR to make adjustments IF scopes become detrimental to the herd. When the decision to be able to hunt both seasons the modern, inline,rifle barreled, 209 primer muzzleloader was already in existence for a number of years.

It's a good learning lesson for those kids, teach them deer hunting isn't about "whack'em stack'em" and "brown it's down" and "entitlement" to a deer (all MDHA mentality along with the political correctness of coddling children), that there is a thing called bag limits.

In other words you can use increased technology, but we will use additional regulations to protect the herd from over harvest. This has happened in the fishing world and hunting world. In deer hunting, buck hunters are unaffected, actually will be better off due to ability to shoot longer distance and get that buck at 150-200 yds or more. Those that like to eat venison, and can't travel elsewhere readily, have to deal with less opportunity to shoot antlerless deer

Tell that to MDHA "the more opportunity" special interest group, who originally proposed both seasons open to all,no pick and choose, and scopes on muzzleloaders.

[snoozebutton]

Pretty simple, use your muzzle loader with a scope in the regular season. As far as I know, it's legal then.

[Gordie]

No one can force you to use a scope just as no one can force you to use an in line. What others use has no effect on how you chose to conduct your hunt.

Yes , You are correct and No one is forcing you to purchase and hunt with a muzzle loader either.

I have heard a few good excuses for the scope though like it will let spend more time in the feild... How much time do you not spend in the feild becasue of not scoping a muzzle loader? Do you get up in the morning and say I would go deer hunting with my muzzle loader ,but I don't have a scope on it so I think I'll stay home. If it is truley getting out in the feild more then it shouldn't matter.

Because it will help make those longer shots or becasue I can't see the target with my iron sight when the deer is at 75 to a hundred yards.

Its like bow hunting, you have limitations for your shots, you wouldn't take a shot with a bow that is a iffy shot , so why do it with a muzzle loader.

Technology has advanced so much that we should do it... well if technology said jump off the bridge I guess we better. I know that is an old cliché, but the new one isn‘t any better.

Saying that muzzle loaders won’t be factor to the deer herd. If you can’t make that shot at a hundred yards without the scope then you put the scope on the gun and are able to make the shot , well the first scenario the deer lived the later of the two the deer did not(maybe).

Bow hunting is a great sport, but it has is limitations as far as distance and shots that can be taken, and so does muzzle loaders with iron sites, it has its limitations.

I have nothing against the scope on a muzzle loader I just don’t think it should be a part of the hunting season that is in place now.

If you would asked me this question 10 years ago I would probly said I would like to see scopes on them but I have thought about it alot and I woulod prefer it to stay like it is.

Enough from me.

[lakevet]

It's a good learning lesson for those kids, teach them deer hunting isn't about "whack'em stack'em" and "brown it's down" and "entitlement" to a deer (all MDHA mentality along with the political correctness of coddling children), that there is a thing called bag limits.

Yeah non typical, I must coddle my kids deer hunting. Give them a muzzleloader, compass, knife, matches, warm clothes, portable stand without heat, hunt all day in what can be below zero weather in Northern Minnesota. Walk several miles (don't own an atv) making drives or being on stand,etc. This year oldest kid saw as many timber wolves as deer. No food plots, heated box stands, gps, scope, etc etc. Main purpose is to hunt with family and harvest some venison to share and to eat. But would like them to be able to harvest any deer that came by. If that is raising them with an entitlement mentality, I just raised them the way I was.

Funny thing is that they are now addicted to that style of hunting (as are the rest of us). If we were into whack and stack we would hunt farther south or west over food plots from heated stands with scoped weapons during the rut. I personally can't hunt that way, raised different I guess.

What has been taught to our kids by their own real personal experience is that not all hunters like sharing the woods. Having had a trophy hunter drive up, get out of his truck and who yells at us telling us we are hunting "his spot" on public land (clearly marked as a WMA) and "his buck" he had in his food plots and on his trail cams on his nearby farm, and had pursued since sept with bow then rifle, and then muzzleloader in the public swamp that the buck was now calling home. Unfortunately my kids have a dim view of those who pursue big racks intensively due to that self absorbed jerk. I honestly believe there is room for all. And trophy hunters are not all jerks like the one we met.

Allowing scopes on muzzleloaders is another smaller step towards making muzzleloading an extension of the regular firearms season. I would hate to see that happen, although there is continual pressure to do so. The regular season can be a real zoo.

By the way we had our worst muzzleloader season ever as far as deer shot at 1 for 8 hunters. Scopes would have definitely increased our opportunities. However, it was a very good season for the things that count, good times in the woods with family with no conflict with other hunters, and a lot of close wolf sightings. And the buck was shot by someone who had not got a buck since the early 1990's. Kids are pumped for next year.

lakevet

[lichen fox]

Quote: "Allowing scopes during the muzzleloader season likely would result in more dead deer, but not appreciably so, said Lou Cornicelli, wildlife research manager for the DNR."

I really don't think it will result in any more "dead" deer...but it would more than likely result in more..."recovered & registered" dead deer...most folks don't register blood trails....

[cavalierowner]

Quote: "Allowing scopes during the muzzleloader season likely would result in more dead deer, but not appreciably so, said Lou Cornicelli, wildlife research manager for the DNR."

I really don't think it will result in any more "dead" deer...but it would more than likely result in more..."recovered & registered" dead deer...most folks don't register blood trails....

Maybe, maybe not. If people who are shooting at the outside (or beyond) of their limits of open sights as this seems to suggest, what would stop them from shooting at the outside (or beyond) of the limits of their scoped rifle?

[nonteepical]

Lakevet, you stated a reason you are against scopes is because it could take away an antlerless permit from a child during muzzleloader season, but inturn, you want to take away from someone who may not be able to use open sights so your child can have a doe permit. I'd rather give to someone than worrie about what may happen to me, i guess it's the way i was raised.

I'm well aware of zone 1 hunting, been hunting it for over 30 years.

I'm not believing the trophy hunter story.... aren't all deer trophys?

[lakevet]

Lakevet, you stated a reason you are against scopes is because it could take away an antlerless permit from a child during muzzleloader season, but inturn, you want to take away from someone who may not be able to use open sights so your child can have a doe permit. I'd rather give to someone than worrie about what may happen to me, i guess it's the way i was raised.

I have never been against scopes for someone who can't use open sights.

Again as I stated in an earlier post:

"We have had hunters into their 80's muzzleloading with open sights. Couple in there seventies at this point. Trifocals, etc,etc. never once did they ask for scope and actually preferred open sights. They grew up with open sights and have a lot of practice using them. Downright scary what they can do as they are very accurate. I myself am older and eyes are changing. Have one in our group who has a scope permit due to retinal damage, so we are NOT against scopes for those who have vision problem that a eye doc determines requires a scope.

Simple steps that always has been available:

1) Talk to your eye doc about it specifically. Highly recommend using one who hunts themselves. If you qualify for a scope permit due to truly poor vision that can't be corrected, use it.

2) Use a peep sight as the rear sight can be out of focus. Peep sights actually more accurate than other style open sights. Or try other styles of open sights to find one that works best for you.

3) Practice, practice, practice

Lastly..........get closer to the deer

lakevet "

[fr0sty]

Whatever the law, the dnr will manage the heard to their target levels regardless if scopes are allowed or not. I wonder what the harvest increase would be if cross bows were allowed during archery and scopes during ml season. I don't think very much, but who knows. Firearms harvest is the tool that used to meet harvest targets. Bow and ml #'s are a small part of the overall kill.

My opinion is that the reason some are opposed to cross bows and scopes is to keep hunter numbers lower during those seasons. That would allow less competition on public land and even just a quieter, more private hunting experience. Nothing wrong with wanting that. I don't see how it can have anything to do with keeping those seasons more "primitive". Nothing prevents hunters today from going as primitive as they want during any of the three seasons.

For me personally, I see the ml season as a way to extend my firearm season. I want to take time to hopefully get a shot at an older buck during the firearms season. I usually take that entire week off from work to hunt all day, every day. If ml season arrives and I haven't shot a buck, then the first doe I see goes in the freezer.

[countyline]

All you guys hunting in wide open spaces? It sounds like if scopes are allowed everyone will have 150-300 yard shots all day every day. No deer is safe. If scopes are allowed do you really think tens of thousands of people will now flock to the wide open spaces, to par take in the new long range sport of muzzleloading? Resulting in a herd decimation?

WI allowed them a few years back check their ML harvest reports. No massive harvest or hunter increases.

[Sturg]

When MN changed the ML season from the original option of ML season or Rifle season to allowing a hunter to purchase both licenses there was a jump in participation. I think there would also be a jump if scopes are allowed. I don't think it will decimate the herd. Harvest can be controlled by area management. It may reduce the quality of the hunt for some hunters. There may be more competition between hunters in areas that have very little competition now.

[skee0025]

How much time do you not spend in the field because of not scoping a muzzle loader? Do you get up in the morning and say I would go deer hunting with my muzzle loader ,but I don't have a scope on it so I think I'll stay home. If it is truly getting out in the field more then it shouldn't matter.

I wont lose a day whether or not scope are allowed. By your own words if its about getting out in the field the it shouldn't matter, and it doesn't. You say you've heard a few good reasons to allow scopes, but I haven't heard one good reason not to allow them. All that's been put forward is "in my opinion" and "I don't think"..Again this is about some people wanting everyone else to hunt the same way they do and nothing you've put forward leads me to think otherwise, in fact its even reinforced that perception.

[Gordie]

All that's been put forward is "in my opinion" and "I don't think"..Again this is about some people wanting everyone else to hunt the same way they do and nothing you've put forward leads me to think otherwise, in fact its even reinforced that perception.

You are correct and I have stated that it IS only My opinion and I wouldn't force anyone to hunt in a away that I want. Again its only my opinion.

[harvey lee]

For those who contact thier elected officials to oppose this bill, then yes, you are trying to force others who would like to use a scope to hunt your way.

[Wanderer]

You say you've heard a few good reasons to allow scopes, but I haven't heard one good reason not to allow them.

People not hearing one good reason not to allow them is an opinion in itself. In reality this entire debate is based on opinion.

The decision will come down to popular vote, in my opinion.

The closest thing to fact has already been said: Contact your Representatives and let them know your opinion.

[lichen fox]

I contacted my rep....he authored the bill...I told him he worded it wrong...it should have said..."all muzzleloaders..."must have" scopes" when hunting the muzzleloader season... Now, if the shoe's on the other foot, and you're forced to hunt the way someone else wants you to, will you not hunt, hunt less, or move to a state that only allows flintlocks? It's all "opinion", that's correct...and the truth is, that it will help "some" on wounding game...but in reallity, 80% of hunters can't hit a deer at 150 - 200 yards with a high power centerfire rifle, so allowing scopes will in no way have any significant impact as far as harvest or the amount of hunters in the field during the muzzy season. This topic is not just about "opinion"...it is, like many others... about "greed"...

[Musky Buck]

I agree fox, I'm tired of people saving their tag in the name of greed, saving it for ML season, now they can ram on a scope, wonderful.

[TruthWalleyes]

I am excited to use my muzzleloader during shotgun season with a scope. I've never put a deer behind the crosshairs of a scope before, always shot them with iron sites. Got a new muzzy before last season and a scope to go with it, will need to get a quick detatch and start sighting it in soon. Kind of excited to use that muzzy with a scope this year.

Ended up taking my deer last year with a bow.

[NoWiser]

In my opinion, the muzzy season was intended to give a small percentage of people a high quality hunt. They did this by restricting it to using only a "primitive weapon" with no scope, effectively creating a handicap that was not acceptable to most people. That small percentage of people really got the screw job when they opened it up to everyone. I will be contacting my representatives tonight to let them know what I think.

To say you should allow scopes for a more clean, ethical shot is ridiculous in my opinion. If you can't make a clean shot at 80 yards with open sights, then don't shoot at a deer 80 yards away. If you can't get closer than that, then tough luck. Maybe we should allow unscoped muzzleloaders during archery season because it's hard to make a clean shot at 40 yards with a bow for most people, but it's easy with a muzzy and open sights?

The problem is that everybody thinks they are entitled to everything. Sometimes life just doesn't work that way and you need to make a choice, one thing or the other. Even though I've muzzy hunted and rifle hunted the same year in the past, I wouldn't be opposed to picking either one or the other. And, if they are going to allow scopes on a muzzleloader, effectively making them a rifle, you should definitely have to choose one or the other.

That's my opinion, at least....

[ANYFISH2]

In my opinion, the muzzy season was intended to give a small percentage of people a high quality hunt. They did this by restricting it to using only a "primitive weapon" with no scope, effectively creating a handicap that was not acceptable to most people. That small percentage of people really got the screw job when they opened it up to everyone. I will be contacting my representatives tonight to let them know what I think.

To say you should allow scopes for a more clean, ethical shot is ridiculous in my opinion. If you can't make a clean shot at 80 yards with open sights, then don't shoot at a deer 80 yards away. If you can't get closer than that, then tough luck. Maybe we should allow unscoped muzzleloaders during archery season because it's hard to make a clean shot at 40 yards with a bow for most people, but it's easy with a muzzy and open sights?

The problem is that everybody thinks they are entitled to everything. Sometimes life just doesn't work that way and you need to make a choice, one thing or the other. Even though I've muzzy hunted and rifle hunted the same year in the past, I wouldn't be opposed to picking either one or the other. And, if they are going to allow scopes on a muzzleloader, effectively making them a rifle, you should definitely have to choose one or the other.

That's my opinion, at least....

+1, well said.

I say NO to scopes for muzzy season.

I own a inline and would choose to use a scope if allowed. I do however, think scopes go against the original purpose of a seperate season for muzzy. I do not agree that anyone is trying to force others to hunt thier way, just trying to keep season from expanding and losing it's identity/tradition.

[TruthWalleyes]

I hunted Archery, Firearms, Muzzy...was selective, patient, and shot 1 deer in 2012. Did i ruin someone elses hunt in the process by hunting too many days, or by carrying my rifle in the woods one day, and a bow the next, and a muzzy the next? Never firing any of them except the bow on the last weekend of muzzy season? Or if i had a scope on my gun, does that ruin your hunt? Or possibly make mine more enjoyable?

Don't recall stepping foot in any state land this year. Though typically i will spend some time on public lands. Scope/No Scope, Firearm, Muzzy, Bow..What's the difference? I'm Hunting deer ethically, for the meat, for a clean kill, and for the enjoyment of the outdoors as well as trying to pass the sport onto my daughter as my father passed it onto me.

At the end of the day, i just want to hunt deer, and will take my time doing so if allowed, hunt every season if allowed.

Maybe we should force people to pick either Archery, Firearms, or Muzzy season....I'd probably pick Archery ONLY because it is the longest season. I don't care what i use to harvest a deer, it's the enjoyment of the process.

Rant over.

[lakevet]

In my opinion, the muzzy season was intended to give a small percentage of people a high quality hunt. They did this by restricting it to using only a "primitive weapon" with no scope, effectively creating a handicap that was not acceptable to most people. That small percentage of people really got the screw job when they opened it up to everyone. I will be contacting my representatives tonight to let them know what I think.

To say you should allow scopes for a more clean, ethical shot is ridiculous in my opinion. If you can't make a clean shot at 80 yards with open sights, then don't shoot at a deer 80 yards away. If you can't get closer than that, then tough luck. Maybe we should allow unscoped muzzleloaders during archery season because it's hard to make a clean shot at 40 yards with a bow for most people, but it's easy with a muzzy and open sights?

The problem is that everybody thinks they are entitled to everything. Sometimes life just doesn't work that way and you need to make a choice, one thing or the other. Even though I've muzzy hunted and rifle hunted the same year in the past, I wouldn't be opposed to picking either one or the other. And, if they are going to allow scopes on a muzzleloader, effectively making them a rifle, you should definitely have to choose one or the other.

That's my opinion, at least....

Very well said

lakevet

[fr0sty]

I emailed the DNR asking if they had any info on the origins of Minnesota's muzzle loader season. Here is the reply I received.

We don’t really have records regarding the specific intent of the season; however, the season was established in 1977 on designated state lands focused around the Lac qui Parle and Big Stone areas. As I understand, it bubbled up from regional interest and started out as a “traditional” or “primitive” option but there was never any specific language focusing on a primitive season. It was early enough after the 1971 deer season closure that the harvest was still fairly conservative and MZ hunters/harvest was fairly low. So, the muzzleloader season was not originally established for deer management purposes; it was an additional opportunity. However, it has evolved and is a management tool at this point.

[lakevet]

"Traditional" or "primitive" weapons were all that was commercially available until 1985 and the intro of knight's inlines.

So in setting up the season no one thought there was any need to write precise regs regarding definition of a muzzleloader, or what entailed a primitive or traditional experience season.

Now it is a "management tool" with "new and improved technology".

lakevet

[skee0025]

That small percentage of people really got the screw job when they opened it up to everyone.

How does the equipment used by others screw you or anyone else over? Thats like saying that allowing compound bows during archery season screws over those using recurves. It does not, will not and can never effect how you choose to hunt.