Thoughts on NO HUNTING during the Rut..

[Coach1310]

mabr- First off, let me just state that whatever happens as far as regulations in the future, I won't have a major issue with it. I just enjoy being out there and whatever opportunities I get that fall within the law, I intend to take advantage of and I would hope many others do as well.

I DO understand the challenges faced by us bowhunters. Most folks have no idea how close a deer has to be until you hit the woods and take some yardages....it is definitely unlike the "if I can see it, I can shoot it" idea that exists with a lot of rifle hunting situations...

While you state that "taking the rut away is being prejudice to bowhunters..(I paraphrased a bit)" how is taking it away from gun hunters NOT prejudice. I know, I know, their odds are much better. There is plenty of people a field moving deer around, success rate is higher etc., but it still doesn't justify the point. I understand the pressure gun hunters put on deer, but I just can't say that it is right to take the rut away from gun hunters and leave it for bowhunters... no matter the odds/pressure etc., I still don't think it is right. Like you state in your last sentence.... "because I'm passionate about it, please don't try and take it away from me because of it," ... that is EXACTLY what a gun hunter could say about any regulation that proposes moving the season out of the rut.

For the record, I am honestly passionate about hunting as well. I don't have the time and resources to do it as much as I would like and to the extent I would like, but my time spent afield is just as special to me as anyone. Anyone in this forum knows the exact feeling I am talking about. You can't really explain it, you can only experience it.

[candiru]

Moving gun season out of the rut would be a gain for bowhunters. They can hunt the rut with out the gun hunters disturbing the deer. It would be a loss for gun hunters. No rut to move the deer and possibly having to put up with more cold and snow. It does not sound fair to me. If you take the rut away from gun hunters in fairness you need to take it away from bow hunters.

If you want to talk about Iowa or Wisc. having later seasons, those states were that way before the concept of growing big bucks had been "invented".

[mabr]

Coach im glad your passionate about it as well. I guess I just dont understand how anyone can be passionate about it and not take advantage of every opportunity to be out there doing it. By that I mean why not take up bow hunting if that is the best chance at getting YOUR trophy? If I was a serious gun hunter and wanted to harvest a good buck but the season was after the rut I would start hunting with a bow, muzzleloader or spear if it had a season. I would be there just the same trying to capitalize on any edge I can get. I gaurantee bow hunting has grown leaps and bounds in Iowa for this simple fact. Yeah I know not all can bow hunt or take the time to do it. Well my answer is if its important you will make the time or get the necessary permits to hunt with crossbow.

I started out as most, gun hunting. As i grew i realized if I wanted to be Successful at it (deer hunting) I need to spend more time in the field and just plain learning how to hunt. I guess im a minority to the hunting community in that I love all the phases of deer hunting. From off season planting, scouting, planning, setting stands etc etc. Its all part of THE hunt. Its not just the few months we spend in the stand. I guess im just TRYING to MAKE others feel the way I do about it.

I just dont think i will ever understand how some folks think. And this is what IMO upsets us so called horn hunters, Trophy hunters, game hogs, selfish hunters, whatever they want to call us. We (again IMO) care more about these deer and the whole deer hunting exprience than all those that are against it. If they cared (in my eyes)they would see what we are trying to explain to the masses. Maybe were wrong and it should be a choice for everyone on what is a good hunt. But for me its all of the above reasons and then some. But I guess to each there own.

I will continue preaching from my soap box about letting them go so they can grow. And hopefully the rest of the state will see the benifits of these new regs the state is implementing and hopefully will understand what we have been saying all along WILL work.

[heat checker]

The question that has popped into my mind is: how would moving gun season out of the rut influence the success rates? Anyone compared the rates of Mn to a neighboring state with like population, hunters, climate and crop seasons? Probably way too many variables to get a conclusion. My best guess is it would go down a little depending on if you need to draw for a doe tag. The thing that concerns me is the rut has been "given" to the masses, ie gun hunters. It is the years easiest time to take a deer. Bowhunters can also hunt at this time, but how many actually even try?My guess would be less than 5% of them even make an effort because the odds are so low with all the comotion going on. So unless you have a special "hidey hole" where deer go to escape the gunfire, your odds as a bowhunter go WAY down once the firearms come out. What are the satisfaction rates of other states that leave the guns out of the rut, but allow bowhunting? Anyone have any figures? Not only of gun hunters, but archery and muzzy as well.

[bottom-bouncer]

Coach im glad your passionate about it as well. I guess I just dont understand how anyone can be passionate about it and not take advantage of every opportunity to be out there doing it. By that I mean why not take up bow hunting if that is the best chance at getting YOUR trophy? If I was a serious gun hunter and wanted to harvest a good buck but the season was after the rut I would start hunting with a bow, muzzleloader or spear if it had a season. I would be there just the same trying to capitalize on any edge I can get. I gaurantee bow hunting has grown leaps and bounds in Iowa for this simple fact. Yeah I know not all can bow hunt or take the time to do it. Well my answer is if its important you will make the time or get the necessary permits to hunt with crossbow.

I started out as most, gun hunting. As i grew i realized if I wanted to be Successful at it (deer hunting) I need to spend more time in the field and just plain learning how to hunt. I guess im a minority to the hunting community in that I love all the phases of deer hunting. From off season planting, scouting, planning, setting stands etc etc. Its all part of THE hunt. Its not just the few months we spend in the stand. I guess im just TRYING to MAKE others feel the way I do about it.

I just dont think i will ever understand how some folks think. And this is what IMO upsets us so called horn hunters, Trophy hunters, game hogs, selfish hunters, whatever they want to call us. We (again IMO) care more about these deer and the whole deer hunting exprience than all those that are against it. If they cared (in my eyes)they would see what we are trying to explain to the masses. Maybe were wrong and it should be a choice for everyone on what is a good hunt. But for me its all of the above reasons and then some. But I guess to each there own.

I will continue preaching from my soap box about letting them go so they can grow. And hopefully the rest of the state will see the benifits of these new regs the state is implementing and hopefully will understand what we have been saying all along WILL work.

you hit it squae on the head!

[Coach1310]

Coach im glad your passionate about it as well. I guess I just dont understand how anyone can be passionate about it and not take advantage of every opportunity to be out there doing it. .......

I will continue preaching from my soap box about letting them go so they can grow. And hopefully the rest of the state will see the benifits of these new regs the state is implementing and hopefully will understand what we have been saying all along WILL work.

First off.... I do take as many opportunties as I can to get out. It isn't so much about the chase for the trophy, but more in the realm of just enjoying the hunt. I respect the guys that hunt ONE deer or a certain size deer. That takes hard work, discipline, patience, sacrifice etc... I also understand the thought that moving the gun hunt will protect bucks to hopefully allow for more mature deer. The part I will never understand is how folks believe we need to protect these deer by moving the rifle season out of the rut, but at the same time say, "Yeah, but the bowhunters can still hunt.." It just seems to sound to me that "as long as it doesn't drastically affect my hunt I am good with it." It seem short sighted to me, but maybe I just don't understand. I would 100% support moving the rifle season, IF they closed the archery season during the rut. I know the limitations of bow hunting, but in my opinion all archers knew the limitations of bow hunting going in. And it seems now we should use it as a crutch to be able to hunt the rut should regulations change??

Maybe I just don't get it.... maybe I never will. I appreciate the dialogue and point of view that is much different than my own.

[smnduck]

It doesn't matter about percentages of deer taken by bow or gun. If you cut out one then you cut them all out of the deal. The only fair way to share the resource.

[eyeguy 54]

is this new for WI or has it always been this way?

1.November firearm season - Statewide 16-day beginning two Saturdays prior to the Thanksgiving holiday. CWD zone would use the same dates. Season would be the normal bucks plus variable quota system.

2.Archery seasons - Open statewide on the Saturday closest to September 15 and continues through the Thursday immediately prior to November firearm season. Statewide season reopens on first day of the November gun season and continuing through the second Sunday in January.

Looks reasonable to me.

[mabr]

It doesn't matter about percentages of deer taken by bow or gun. If you cut out one then you cut them all out of the deal. The only fair way to share the resource.

Not cutting anyone out. Take up bow hunting. As far as Im aware of no one has sugested limiting the amount of bow hunters allowed to hunt during the rut.

[BLACKJACK]

Interesting post!! Some of my random thoughts after reading thru this topic.

Too clarify, I'm not a 'horn hunter' and get disgusted with the hunters that insist that the DNR change the regs so they can see a big buck behind every tree. There ARE big deer out there, prove you're a hunter and go hunt one down!!

I bowhunt and gun hunt, but would quit gun hunting if it wasn't a family affair. I love sitting out in the woods watching the deer and other critters.

Unless global warming continues at a fast pace, I think it would be a hardship to the young and old hunters to move the hunt later into November, its a lot colder November 20 than it is November 6!!! As a 50+ hunter I know its a lot easier to stay in bed on those cold December mornings!!!

The rut isn't just a one week event!!! Twice in the last couple years I've seen bucks chasing does on Thanksgiving morning!! Anytime you can be in the woods from Oct 25 to Dec 1 you have a good chance of seeing a buck moving, looking for does. Before they opened up the season, that Thursday and Friday before the second weekend was an excellent time to be out in a bowstand!!

To answer the original question, I say NO to banning hunting during the rut, for two reasons.

1) Fairness. If archery hunters can hunt the rut, gun hunters should also be allowed.

2) Enjoyment of the hunt. We're all deer hunters, we love to see and hunt deer, why not hunt during the best time!!! I personally take the first week of November off every year to bowhunt!!! Its great!!! Cool, crisp mornings, pheasants crowing, geese honking, deer moving - I don't want to lose that because some hunters want bigger horns!!! Horn porn at its worst!!

[Getanet]

I just dont think i will ever understand how some folks think. And this is what IMO upsets us so called horn hunters, Trophy hunters, game hogs, selfish hunters, whatever they want to call us. We (again IMO) care more about these deer and the whole deer hunting exprience than all those that are against it. If they cared (in my eyes)they would see what we are trying to explain to the masses. Maybe were wrong and it should be a choice for everyone on what is a good hunt. But for me its all of the above reasons and then some. But I guess to each there own.

Perfect example of what drives me crazy about many QDM guys. The notion that they care more about deer and deer hunting than all hunters. That anyone who doesn't use doe estrus as cologne or eat a side salad of Biolgic with dinner every night is less passionate and knowledgeable about hunting than they are.

I feel that yes, absolutely, it should be a choice for everyone on what is a good hunt.

[archerystud]

Okay let's close the rut to bow hunters as well. I'm fine with that.

Any improvement over what we currently do would be fine by me.

[Musky Buck]

Could really care less when the 500,000 rifle hunters hunt, don't believe there is enough sanctuary areas for them to survive in anyway, for me having 3 tamarac swamps to hunt bring it on as others will have 0 deer on there land primarily during snowy rifle seasons or early freeze ups. The deer pile up in my areas about when this later rifle season would begin so yes lets do it.

[LightningBG]

I have the PERFECT solution:

Move the rut.

This year we can work on the sunrise and sunsets, next year the moon phase, the year after that the temps.

Seems like a no brainer. Call your state rep.

[Scoot]

I have the PERFECT solution:

Move the rut.

This year we can work on the sunrise and sunsets, next year the moon phase, the year after that the temps.

Seems like a no brainer. Call your state rep.

I think this is an excellent idea! I'm all for it!!!

[LightningBG]

is this new for WI or has it always been this way?

1.November firearm season - Statewide 16-day beginning two Saturdays prior to the Thanksgiving holiday. CWD zone would use the same dates. Season would be the normal bucks plus variable quota system.

2.Archery seasons - Open statewide on the Saturday closest to September 15 and continues through the Thursday immediately prior to November firearm season. Statewide season reopens on first day of the November gun season and continuing through the second Sunday in January.

Looks reasonable to me.

I'm not sure where you came up with those dates. Here are the actual, which is the same or similar to as long as i can remember.

White-tailed Deer (non-CWD units and non-metro units)

* Bow - Sept. 18 - Nov. 18 and Nov. 29 - Jan. 9, 2011

* Gun - Nov. 20 - Nov. 28

* Muzzleloader - Nov. 29 - Dec. 8

* Youth Deer Hunt - Oct. 9 - 10

* Statewide Antlerless Hunt - Dec. 9 - Dec. 12

[mabr]

Quote:

Perfect example of what drives me crazy about many QDM guys. The notion that they care more about deer and deer hunting than all hunters. That anyone who doesn't use doe estrus as cologne or eat a side salad of Biolgic with dinner every night is less passionate and knowledgeable about hunting than they are.

I feel that yes, absolutely, it should be a choice for everyone on what is a good hunt.

Getanet, I do understand and I knowingly posted it that way on purpose. Your absolutly right in saying we think we care more about the deer than others do. I honestly believe that and I know others who feel the same way. I hate that I feel that way, but i cant for the life of me understand how if you like to deer hunt how you can continue to be satisfied with below par hunting. I've tried to convince others around my hunting areas to think QDM, but to no avail they still shoot the buck vs the doe. I absolutly HATE it that we need to have the state tell us what we can shoot, but ive giving in to the fact that unless they do its never going to happen.

You say it should be everyone choice what makes a good hunt. So I ask you what is a good hunt to you?

If you say you are happy with killing spike bucks year after year then im beating my head against a wall trying to make you understand. But judging by the recruitment of the younger hunters they dont want that type of hunting experience. They want to be able to have the chance at getting a wall hanger. I understand the first year hunters and young hunters taking whatever they want but the ones I see argueing agaisnt these changes are the older hunters who have plenty of years under their belts.

I'll give a perfect example thats very close to me. An Elderly gentleman I know very well, hunts the same as he has for many many years. Giving the oportunity to shoot a doe or a buck he is taking the buck no matter the size even though he can take either. Ive seen it time and again. He takes his grandchildren hunting and with them it doesnt matter what they shoot buck or doe and I totally agree with this. But it has been engrained into so many hunters just like him that they have to get their BUCK no matter the size and that taking a doe is somehow not as lofty. He is hunting for the meat only so why not let that buck go and take the doe instead. They have no answer as to why and this is what upsets me when it is good management to take the doe instead.

Ask any new hunter what they want to shoot, spike or a wallhanger. You know the answer as all do so why the fight for a better chance at getting that wallhanger? Oh wait its about the hunting experience. My whole season was made last year without ever firing a shot, by having a mature doe within muzzle length of my gun and her looking at me the whole time and didnt know what I was, all on the ground. Could i have killed her? at least 5 times but i didnt. Also, I didnt take a buck last year nor the year before but they were both very sucessful seasons in my eyes. So even to us QDM guys its not at all about the kill or the antlers.

[mabr]

I have the PERFECT solution:

Move the rut.

This year we can work on the sunrise and sunsets, next year the moon phase, the year after that the temps.

Seems like a no brainer. Call your state rep.

Yes vote for me.

[96trigger]

Quote:

If you say you are happy with killing spike bucks year after year then im beating my head against a wall trying to make you understand. But judging by the recruitment of the younger hunters they dont want that type of hunting experience. They want to be able to have the chance at getting a wall hanger. I understand the first year hunters and young hunters taking whatever they want but the ones I see argueing agaisnt these changes are the older hunters who have plenty of years under their belts.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. The younger, (25 and under) crowd, would have pushed for these new regs eventually. Every kid I've talked to has been favor of the new regs. This was going to happen regardless, if not this year, then in the near future.

Ever wonder why Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Iowa all have gun firearm seasons at different times? Out of stae licenses. Lots of MN hunters hunt Wisconsin and Iowa and vice versa. I think that this also some to do with when the seasons are.

[Getanet]

I’m glad we’re having this discussion Mabr. My contention is that when it comes to hunting rules and regs, my definition of a good hunt shouldn't matter. As long as we have a high population of deer in MN, than if someone wants to take a spike or let it pass that should be their choice. As I look at the buck harvest totals in MN compared to our estimated whitetail population I have a tough time swallowing the notion there are no big bucks around. As many have stated, these mature bucks are more wily and nocturnal. Just because any one of us on this site didn’t getting a shot at one doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Yes, I’m afraid to me the dreaded Outdoor News argument does carry some water with me.

If the DNR says the deer population in MN is getting too low, and particularly the buck population, then I’ll climb on board rule changes to help the herd.

It also seems many of the QDM folks begin to feel something is owed to them for all the time, money and effort they put in to growing big bucks. While I can understand their frustration, I can’t get on board with the idea that their efforts give them a large voice when it comes to a public resource.

For the record, most years I shoot a doe.

[Getanet]

Trigger, why do you push for these rule changes so hard? You stated yourself that every year you see at least one mature buck. I would think by almost anyone's definition that's a pretty good "success" rate. Where do you see the problem?

[psepuncher]

Quote Trigger:

Every kid I've talked to has been favor of the new regs.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Who are these kids? new huters is what your talking about right.

I can tell you what's going to happen with your scenario.

Those same kids you are talking about are the same kids that get a free pass.

But since they are new hunters, what about the new adult hunters?

And the new young adult hunters are the ones I'm talking about.

I took my son on a trip to a state with antler restrictions. He was un-happy to say the least.

[Rob M]

mabr- i swear we have the exact same situation. I do not understand why shooting a fork is so much better than shooting a doe. I think that even seeing a deer is a thrill dont get me wrong. I still get a huge thrill shooting a doe. I figure just let the little bucks go to grow.

[nonteepical]

The hunting industry as a whole, rifle and scope manufactures, deerstand, scent,bow manufacturers you name it, all support QDMA and it's deer management philosophy, with nothing to gain business wise in doing so. People are going to hunt with good or poor management practices and still buy their products. QDMA directors are wildlife biologists, some former state big game coordinators and other wildlife agencies, they are trying to improve deer hunting with sound management practices that work, while benefiting all wildlife. theres enough groups out there trying to take away our hunting rights altogether as it is, we need to stick together, why do we have to have a bunch of people complain they can't shoot any and every thing they so choose because theres a million of them. so jump on board all you Diane Feinsteins because deer hunting is changing, it's getting stronger every year.

[mabr]

Quote:

Who are these kids? new huters is what your talking about right.

I can tell you what's going to happen with your scenario.

Those same kids you are talking about are the same kids that get a free pass.

But since they are new hunters, what about the new adult hunters?

And the new young adult hunters are the ones I'm talking about.

I took my son on a trip to a state with antler restrictions. He was un-happy to say the least.

PP I cant answer for trigger but i do know alot of younger hunters 16 -mid 20's and what I hear and see is they are the ones Trigger mentions. They grew up watching the tv shows and see the difference letting the little guys grow. Now if your son is a relativly new hunter i can understand his frustration in having to pass a good deer in his eyes. BUT give him a couple of deer under his belt and see what he is willing to pass on for the opportunity to get a good one.

Im not positive but i think the new reguation has loop holes for younger hunters which I know from triggers previous posts as well as all that I have talked to about this all agree on and is incouraged.

Now to the new adult hunters. I'll be honest, I dont know. I know of no way to handle this other than what others have mentioned previously that first time lisense buyers are able to harvest any deer. I dont know how exactly this would work, but I understand you concerns.

I commend you for taking him with you. But id be willing to bet the farm that after he has taken a few deer he wouldnt have nearly the disapointment in letting that 120 class buck go to have a chance at harvesting a 150 class.