Minn. could see antler-point restrictions in 2010

[tednugefan]

what if we just got rid of all the bonus tags and let people shoot what ever they want still.

[buckhunter21]

Bonus tags are not at all the problem. A bonus tag only allows you to take an antlerless deer. Without the bonus tags the population would get to be too high and create a bigger problem so they actually help alot. You only get to shoot one buck a year unless you take someone elses buck tag. Thats the problem is people tagging someones elses buck. I wouldnt mind seeing ARs but i think it is going to be the most complained about management idea. I still think that moving hunting after the rut and getting rid of buck party hunting would work just fine and wouldnt get "as much" opposition as ARs but something needs to be done soon.

[DTro]

IMO, AR is a bad idea with good intentions.

Several great points.

The biggest being for those of us that hunt the dense forests up North. I used to do a lot of ground blind hunting and you have one or two narrow shooting lanes. You usually have time to indentify that it has antlers, and maybe how high they are (estimate) then it’s a quick decision to shoot or not. You simply don’t have the time, even at a slow walk to count points. Now if you are glassing a field and stalk hunting, like they do out West, that is a whole different ballgame.

Venison was a big staple in our diets growing up and it also subsidized our family grocery bill substantially. People should have a choice to harvest a deer. The number of points on its head shouldn’t matter.

IMO, showing off the big ones is more rewarding when they are less plentiful. It’s a vicious cycle this game. So now you have 10pters running around everywhere, now people aren’t happy unless they shoot a 14pter.

[Bear55]

My friend, I'm forcing nothing on you. You and others are free to pursue your beloved antlers. You are under no obligation to shoot anything that does not meet your standards.I am not trying to force or even persuede you to shoot anything you don't want to. Further, you are free to advocate your position and persuede others to follow your course.

Truly, if even half of the hunters in this state CHOSE to abstain from shooting "immature" bucks and refused to allow others to use their tag, you'd have your improvement. We have great bass fishing in this state, not because of restrictive regulations, but because of an ethic especially among good bass fisherman. Yeah, there are still folks that string up some toads from time to time, but the number of folks doing this are dwindling and they have a negligable effect on the population.

Likewise, if the majority of deer hunters CHOSE to follow your course, you'll have your buck utopia in due time. However, the fact that some of you folks are so insistant upon FORCING your agenda into law leads me to believe that deep down you're afraid that not that many really agree with you.

The thing is PEATMOSS when 1 large large group of hunters decides to shoot anything and everything they see they are affecting another large group of hunters that let those deer go. Where I hunt a small group of us have decided to pass up all the young bucks, in turn the success rates of the other hunters in our party and neighbors shooting young bucks have gone up. With every action there is a reaction, after decades of shooting small bucks there is now a strong movement towards QDM. Many people who might not have been for AR are now for new regulations to protect these young bucks. Why is all this happening? People are tired of the traditional management, they see the opportunity to have better hunting and they are going for it.

[Getanet]

"they see the opportunity to have better hunting and they are going for it."

Does anyone know how the DNR will define "better hunting" with the antler point restrictions? It seems to me that will be the hardest thing to clarify. Rack size, average age of harvested bucks, higher harvest rates for does?

I hope the have what defines success chiseled in granite before they implement these regs.

[slimngrizzly]

Im more of a shedhunter than a deer hunter. Theres no denying the sport of shedhunting and peoples fascination with antlers has skyrocketed. Its time the regs change with it. Its a fact, more people are into antlers than ever before.

Meat hunting..... seriously. Everyone here is in it for the love of the sport. Fortunatly they taste great and are great for us. I just dont believe anyone here typing on their computer, texting on their cell phone, listening to their ipod, is out because their family is counting on the meat to survive.

Their are just too many hunters, too much rural development, too many vehicles, just too much bad everything to allow everyone to group up and kill anything and everything they want.

Imagine if we could fish the walleye spawn.... and we could "party fish"..... and there was no restriction to the size.... I know this is apples to oranges but the point is, in this day and age we have to be restricted. Its our human nature to take and take and take until theres nothing left!

I DO NOT think Antler restrictions are the answer... but to me its a step in the right direction so I WILL support it. IMO shut the buck hunting down! Make it a lottery. DO what you want! Just do something because its as bad as ive ever seen it. There are ways to control QUALITY and QUANTITY.... and MN has not figured it out!

[PEATMOSS]

I hear you Bear, and I can see that there are a number of folks jumping on your bandwagon, which leads to the question I have asked continuously here and elsewhere.

IF the number of folks supporting the antler movement is so large, then why are regulations nescessary???

The math is really quite simple, if even half of the hunters CHOSE to abstain from shooting "small" bucks and refused to allow others to tag their deer, then you'd see the changes you are looking for. You could build on that success to persuede others to follow and in due time, achieve the results you are looking for.

Why do you folks find it nescessary to force your values on others by force of law?

[CSTPETER]

PEATMOSS, The point is that the management policies are almost 100% geared toward your "traditional" outlook. Because of this the way I measure my hunt is negatively impacted. You traditionalists see the current management model as an absolute, like Gods work on the eighth day or something. It's not, it doesn't need to be this way and I bet a lot of biologists would say it shouldn't be this way.

PEAT it's like having to fish in a lake where all you can catch is 11" walleyes because the DNR manages the lake specifically for that. Sure, a rogue 18" might survive but to specifically target that fish is a waste of time because the odds are being stacked against you by the keeper of the lake, whether it makes sense or not.

I'm not asking for a Booner behind every tree. I've worked dang hard for the two trophy's on my wall and I appreciate them more because of it. I do beleive we're doing this animal a disservice by trying to manage for such a small percentage of mature deer.

[buckhunter21]

I think that over half of the hunters would like to see bigger bucks. I just think that we need something to open their eyes that it is very possible. I know I have always wanted to shoot a big buck every year but I used to shoot the first buck I saw. Why? Because I was stuck in the "if I dont shoot it the neighbor will" mentality and I think alot of hunters out there think the same thing. It wasnt until a group of neighbors next to me started passing up smaller bucks that I realized that if I do pass up that small buck there is a chance it will make it. I think these people just need to be reassured that if they do pass up that little guy that he will make it until next year and ARs do exactly that. Maybe after a few years peoples mindsets would change and we wouldnt need ARs anymore.

[candiru]

I DO NOT think Antler restrictions are the answer... but to me its a step in the right direction so I WILL support it. IMO shut the buck hunting down! Make it a lottery. DO what you want! Just do something because its as bad as ive ever seen it. There are ways to control QUALITY and QUANTITY.... and MN has not figured it out!

[PEATMOSS]

CSTPETER,

An airline pilot has built a house smack dab in the middle of the woods I hunted as a teen and young man. The surrounding sloughs, potholes and crp grounds that I freely hunted and trapped in my youth have long since been developed or leased out and posted.

At the turn of the century, I packed up the family, took a 40% pay cut and moved north. Since I have been up here, I've seen the Potlatch and Diamond International land get chopped up, sold and posted. Other timberland has been leased and posted. I lost my best bear stand on leased land. The land directly next to my in-laws has been posted.My kids can't even go out for a dang walk in the woods at Grandma's because someone decided that they needed exclusive rights to a forest that had been shared forever. The wealthier folks up here are planting turnips and rapeseed in the middle of their property to attract more deer....

I could go on, but I hope you are getting an appreciation for why I take such great umbrage at folks like you trying to FORCE folks like me to give up our traditions so that someone can hang a head on their wall.

[Shack]

Shackbash not to jump on you or the other guys that said it but if you cant fully tell what your shooting at should you shoot at it?

If you have full knowledge of what is behind your shooting lane(s) before hand, have determined this is a "buck" at 75-100-120 or what ever yards, I do not see how this could be construed as not knowing what you are shooting at?? It is a buck, not a horse, not a hunter, not a moose, not a dog or even samsquatch! It is a buck! What is next, I have take the buck out to dinner or something, greet it first before I make a decision if I should take it down or if AR goes statewide I could honesty see having to formulate the weight of the a buck, before the trigger is pulled in the future. You know that would come down the pike next !

They may have changed firearms safety since I went threw it back in 89 or so, but they never went over anything about counting antlers, guessing weight or even determining if it was a doe or buck. Pretty much it was you had to determine “with out a shadow of a doubt” it is a deer before the trigger is pulled. Like I said, things may have changed, but if this does go statewide in the future, antler counting will have to be added the curriculum of Fire Arms Safety. I would think.

I am not against QDM at all. I just say leave it up to the land owners and the privet sector if they want to peruse it, but leave the general public hunting out of it. What is best for you and I, might not be what everyone wants.

Thinking out loud here, but you are a green hunter (which deer hunting in MN needs more of to support anything) on public land and you have a buck come into your hunting area, but on the far side of your “safe” shooting distance. It is a fork with an irregular tine on the back or even the front side of your broadside profile shot. This situation makes it look like a 6 pointer in the scope or open sites. You have decided this is the deer you want (based on what you have seen) and squeeze the trigger. The bullet flies and right in the sweet spot. Down he goes and the harsh reality of what you just did become apparent as you stand over your first buck. What do you do? Leave the buck lay? Contact the DNR and risk being fined or say the he11 with this sport and take up bowling? Same could be said for a first, second or third year hunter who has time and money invested sitting in the stand for 3-4 years, passing up deer they could have shot, only to give up because they have not shot a deer and wasted time and energy. To miss seeing a first time hunter or a youth hunter (on FM or in real life), even with a spike or fork, the excitement in their face from the game they bagged, the stories that would be told even as they do get bigger deer down the road would be lost for a period of time, hoping they continue hunting until the trophies herds start showing up. The last I heard MN is in need of more deer hunters to keep the sport going strong. How is going any amount of time of dropping your chances at even a small buck (or any) going to help gain hunters on any level back or introduced to this sport?

Why do we have the bag limits we have now? Remember how deer hunting was not to long ago, when bag limits where 1 buck and a lottery for doe permits. People stopped hunting because they did not get deer. Now we have so many deer and fewer hunters, they increased the bag limits more than I ever thought I would see them in my life time for a reason.

With the advertisements, publications and statistics reports from the DNR saying how deer hunting is on a major decline in this state, (IMO) this is not what the sport needs at this time. Maybe it does? Since deer hunting is at a very low point (maybe the lowest it has been for decades), the DNR would consider this a good time to increase the trophy buck population with not as many hunters hunting, in hopes it will recoup and deer hunting participation will rise again in 2015+, while increasing of out-of-state whitetail hunter revenue in 5 plus years. Or this could spell a devastating blow that MN whitetail deer hunting will never recover from.

You want to bring fishing "slots" into this discussion, look at Mille Lacs. How long have the slots been in place? 10-12 years now (I think). Ask any resort owner if they have seen a decline or increase in business since the slot was put in place (example of deer hunters hunting if after AR is introduced). Ask the anglers if "trophy" fish are back in full swing now, anymore than they where before the slot started (example of hunters bagging trophy bucks after a period of time since AR was introduced). Are the slots working on Mille Lacs? I do not know? I catch the same amount of fish now, as I did before the slot was introduced. My last "trophy" sized fish was caught the year before the slot too effect (this is just me though). I know a trophy walleye takes longer to grow to trophy size than maybe a buck, but to think if AR goes state wide and in 3-4 years the bagged "trophy" bucks will increase seems a little short sighted IMO. Maybe on private land in MN this works faster and in other states, but is MN like others states? Just like gaining the lost hunters who given up because of the bucks they pass up on just the first or second year (not to mention the following years) if AR went state wide, would be just as hard to bring back like the anglers who pass Mille Lacs on their way up north every year now, this far into the slot era.

[james_walleye]

40% of people in Missouri backed AR when they were introduced. Its not at a 90% approval rating. The same scenario will play out in MN like it or not. If the DNR didnt see a need for change they wouldnt be kicking AR around. Remember PEAT, the DNR doesnt manage for "trophies". The DNR sees there is an issue and they are going to put regs in to help the situation. I know you could care less about anything reguarding biology because it gets in the way of your traditions, but regs are coming. You shooting or not shooting a basket rack at this point is an individual decision. The DNR putting regs in to help the age structure of the MN deer herd is biological.

[james_walleye]

What you are missing PEAT is that half the hunters polled would like to see more mature bucks, but that doesnt mean they are letting young bucks walk. I know people that would love to see more mature bucks while in the woods, but they still shoot the first antler that comes by.

And no one here is forcing anything on you. The subject of AR has come up a couple of times and people have offered up opinions. The DNR is following the lead of a couple other states who have successfully implemented AR and might just do the same. You might as well buddy up to the fact that change is coming, not because i want it, or anyone on here wants it, but because the DNR sees need for change.

[PEATMOSS]

IMHO, the DNR is reacting to a vocal group, based mostly down in the SE part of the state. As this movement gets closer to reality, I think you're going to see alot of folks that have been sitting on their hands stand up and be heard. This may well be the direction we are going, but I for one am going down kicking and screaming. I'm doing more than pee and moan on the internet, and I think others will too.

Da fat lady hasn't sung yet.

BTW, I'm still waiting for any of you folks to answer the question, if so many folks REALLY want this, then why would we need to change the laws?

[RuttenBuck]

PeatMoss -

The DNR is well aware that other states had a lot of resistance to change but now the majority supports the changes. You can kick and scream all you want but changes are coming.

If you are so against AR, then let's meet in the middle. Support eliminating buck party hunting and pushing the gun season out of the rut.

BTW, if you "traditonal" hunters really don't care about antlers and what you shoot, then how come the buck to dow ratio is so poorly skewed? And, how come year after year, more bucks are killed in this state than does?

[CSTPETER]

CSTPETER,

An airline pilot has built a house smack dab in the middle of the woods I hunted as a teen and young man. The surrounding sloughs, potholes and crp grounds that I freely hunted and trapped in my youth have long since been developed or leased out and posted.

At the turn of the century, I packed up the family, took a 40% pay cut and moved north. Since I have been up here, I've seen the Potlatch and Diamond International land get chopped up, sold and posted. Other timberland has been leased and posted. I lost my best bear stand on leased land. The land directly next to my in-laws has been posted.My kids can't even go out for a dang walk in the woods at Grandma's because someone decided that they needed exclusive rights to a forest that had been shared forever. The wealthier folks up here are planting turnips and rapeseed in the middle of their property to attract more deer....

I could go on, but I hope you are getting an appreciation for why I take such great umbrage at folks like you trying to FORCE folks like me to give up our traditions so that someone can hang a head on their wall.

PEAT, Sounds like you've got a lot of issues when it comes to your enjoyment of the outdoors. I guess the lesson is that the only constant here is change. You can complain all you want about land disappearing, and folks leasing up the good hunting land but if all you do is complain you end up exactly where you are right now. I'm not rich,I have decent job and have some land that is private that I have access too. I also devote any leftover income to "protecting" what I've got and the lands I've always hunted. Whether it's buying the farmer's a 12 pack every few months or negotiating an outright lease, I'm willing to forgo other things so I can enjoy the woods. Yeah it sucks to have to pay to hunt land that you've hunted for free until now, But you can either pay and play or sit home and complain about the next guy who is playing because he paid. How this relates to APR I'm not quite sure. I guess the common theme here is if you're not willing to change you're gonna end up old and bitter.

[vister]

PEAT, here's your answer. The reason we would need to change the laws is because although half of the hunters may support AR, by not having it a law, it does no good letting young bucks walk only to have the neighbor blast away at them 10 minutes later. If it was a law, then not only would you pass them up, but so would your neighbor, and his, and his, etc.

Not only would his horns be bigger next year, but guess what. he'd be bigger, and have more meat on him!

[bigbucks]

Been following on this discussion the whole way through. I'm in agreement with whoever said that the DNR is not looking at AR for biological reasons. They are looking at it because of the displeasure of a very vocal group of hunters. How big is that group really? I don't know, right around where I live & hunt I'd guess maybe 30-40%, likely less. I'm in agreement with whoever said, if so many are really in favor of it, why would we need to change the rules for it?

More & more people are passing on small bucks every year, it will continue to evolve that way. I think every deer hunter should have the right to work through their progression of wanting to shoot a deer, any deer, to what they want to shoot. The bulk of AR proponents have shot their share of little guys, it got too easy for them, so they don't want to do it anymore, self included. The "it has to be a buck to matter" culture was around a long time & it will take quite a while for it to fade away, but it will for the most part.

It does not matter what the age of the buck is doing the breeding, he has the same genes to produce big or small antlers as a yearling as he'll have when he's 5, so that argument for a healthier herd doesn't hold water with me. Is the more even distribution of ages among the herd prettier to look at? Sure, but I don't see that affects the health. At least in the age of the bucks, older does make better mothers as they're smarter. The bucks don't really do any parenting.

[chub]

CSTPETER,

Other timberland has been leased and posted. I lost my best bear stand on leased land. The land directly next to my in-laws has been posted.My kids can't even go out for a dang walk in the woods at Grandma's because someone decided that they needed exclusive rights to a forest that had been shared forever. The wealthier folks up here are planting turnips and rapeseed in the middle of their property to attract more deer....

Let's turn MN in to a "GO TO" Trophy deer destination and you'll see what posting, leasing..... outfitting and greed is all about.

Just one more step towards the slope of turning hunting into a sport for the privileged, IMO.

Some questions I have for the "trophy" hunters are, what will you have if you achieve your goals?

A more satisfying hunt? A better photo with your kill? Nicer trophy wall? Then once you realize the guy you work with, your neighboor, your cousin Johnny and countless others have the same caliber of "trophy", will you regard yours with the same esteem? Where do you go once the "shine" wears off and tomorrows trophy becomes no big deal?

What then?

[mrklean]

i was waiting to see how long it took someone to say if you let the deer walk the next year its gonna be bigger in weight as well.

[Jameson]

O.K., accepting that MN will have some AR this season....

Lets hope their is some explanation (so as to educate us) in the 2009 regs by the DNR as to WHY we are having Antler Restrictions in some areas. It would be interesting to know if the changes are biologically driven or hunter satisfaction driven. If they are biologically driven those FACTS would also be interesting and important. Also, IF the changes are hunter satisfaction driven hopefully their would be some contact information to allow hunters to voice if they are satisfied with the change and its results.

[Jameson]

40% of people in Missouri backed AR when they were introduced. Its now at a 90% approval rating. The same scenario will play out in MN like it or not....

-edited "not" to "now" in above quote, I think that was the original intent-

How many of the 60% that disapproved quit hunting? Did they get replaced by trophy hunters?

Minnesota isn't PA or Missouri. We have a harsher climate. Being a morel mushroom hunter I have noticed that Missourians are already finding morels this spring. The pics they are taking show their vegetation growing well in advance of our vegetation. We will have more old bucks die in our harsher winter conditions than PA or Missouri. If you want to compare other states with MN how about we compare border states like the Dakotas? The Dakotas both have buck lotteries and high approval ratings from their hunters. Lets copy the Dakotas.

[Boar]

Wow this is a good read, I'm trying to figure out where I stand on this. I have hunted for thirty years, shot small bucks an does an large bucks an does, actually only one large buck. I know I cold put a huge buck on the tail gate if i wanted to an all I would have to do is really spend the time an do my home work cause there certainly is enough hunting days each year with bow, rifle an muzzleloader to do so. Granted not everyone can afford to hunt as much as others an so on and so forth... I have been given the opportunities in this life to pursue the things that make me who I am an I am very thankfull for that. I have in the last few years decided to give back an give others the enjoyment I have recieved over the years. I have started an organized a Ice Fishing trip to LOW for our local 4H club for kids that dont have the opportunities to do so an man has that been a big thing, they talk about it all year long an cant wait to go next year an so on.. I have an Autistic son an a ADHD daughter, my son, has no desire to hunt, an sometimes thats hard to eccept, my daughter does though, an she's eleven so next year is the big year. Last two yeas I have taken my sons best freind deer hunting an he is loving it,he has taken a nice doe last year an the year before he did'nt get to shoot. We had seen deer but the shot opportunity was not there. The hardest thing I see in all of this to have to say to my daughter, to my sons freind or to my son some day maybe, is.. No you cant shoot that one... Theres one!! Wait you cant shoot that one either... of course I would explain why, but they would only get a true understanding of why as they mature later in life, in the meantime technology MIGHT start to win over as it's more fun to sleep in an play Xbox on line than to get up in the cold dark Saturday morning to just sit there an watch a young buck walk by. The coolist thing I witnessed while hunting with my sons freind was how he talked about his expereince, "Youre dad is so funny" "That story was so cool" "Remember when you missed that nice buck" "The fun part is having lunch around the truck" Boy Now thats hunting memories and there is not one dang antler on the tail gate! Whats really important here.... Boar

[PEATMOSS]

CSTPETER- Ya, I got issues, but my therapist says if we tweak my meds another time or 2 I'll be doing fine.

What my "issue" really is, is where I see our heritage heading. I see AR as another kick to the head of both folks like me that hunt for more traditional reasons as well as the multitudes of individuals that you guys like to refer to as "weekend warriors".To many, deer hunting is now the only hunting they do.I know you guys are smart enough to understand that the restrictions you are advocating will disproportionally benifit the more avid hunters and those that own/have access to high quality private land.

We often point to Europe as an example of what can happen to gun rights. I'm pointing to Europe as an example of what will happen when hunting becomes over-regulated and too expensive. Every hunter that loses interest is one less license sold, one less voice in support of hunting and likely one less gun owner. The lack of concern for these facts is both selfish and shortsighted.

vister- truly if half of the folks in the state CHOSE to abstain from shooting smaller bucks there would be vastly more yearlings making it thru to the nexxt season.50% less people shooting yearlings and refusing to allow anyone else to fill their tag=many more deer getting thru to the next year. Simple math. Yes, the neighbor may shoot the particular buck you passed up, but then again he may not.