Antler Point Restrictions

[CSTPETER]

Candiru, If this HSOforum is any indication of how easy it is to change attitudes then you can see how futile these grassroots efforts will be. Believe it or not I absolutely hate interference from "The Man". I would much rather see attitudes change to get this accomplished, but I know it will not happen voluntarily, at least not in the short term.

BTW, Even though I love the more mature buck aspect of QDM, There is a lot more to it. Check out the QDMA HSOforum for a better perspective.

[Musky Buck]

It is mind set, I don't think too many in our beloved state would pass on a trophy buck if given the chance heck even kinda a chance, people are blastin. It is crazy. My nephew has had a chance to take a few small bucks but won't. I told him you don't have to hunt the way I do, mature buck or bust, but he says well uncle, they look so small and the horns are small. Won't he be bigger next year ? Then there's my 60 year old uncle who has shot maybe 80 bucks, ex marksman in the military, and any buck he can shoot he does pending permit availability. If people are willing to party hunt with him and supply the extra buck tags he's golden. He can't hunt like that on anyone else's land, but he already has 2-3 bucks down and then "trophy" hunts with his own tag which many times he fills. I know of 2 years where he took 5 bucks each year. I want to put him out of business. He gets to shoot em up on his land and then come to QDM/Go Grow/whatever to drill a mature buck, what a weasel.

[BobT]

Quote:

If this HSOforum is any indication of how easy it is to change attitudes then you can see how futile these grassroots efforts will be.

I think that "futile" might be a bit hard. To use such a term would suggest it would be a waste of effort to try and there is no hope for success. I admire the efforts of QDM and AR and my view may change as our discussion continues. Isn't that what it's all about? Changing views and ideas?

It's never futile. It may be a challenge. It may be an almost insurmoutible task, but it is not futile. Bass fishermen did it. If they can, anyone can.

Bob

[james_walleye]

[Bear55]

Quote:

During the rut the does will seek out the mature deer with the largest racks because they are perceived to have superior genes and better health.

You have got to be a prodigy. I have never met or heard of anyone that can in all honesty know what a doe thinks. I suspect that it works just the opposite. I will agree that when more than one buck has a particular doe in mind, the one that bests the other will be the one to win the doe but I highly doubt the doe has much care about it. She'll mate with whichever buck she can and to the winner goes the spoils. The bucks are the ones preventing each other from mating. The does aren't choosy. I can see that in our horses. When a mare comes into heat she teases all the studs, not just one. The studs will fight each other to get at the mare and the mare could give a rat's behind which one it it.

Bob

I do a lot a reading (deer mags/books) and its pretty well documented that mature does will seek out the dominant male when it comes time to breed. I'm not saying she will only mate with a specific buck but they prefer a dominant buck and if possible will search out a mature buck over a young buck. I'm also not saying zero does get bred by young bucks because it certainly does happen, probably more in Minnesota than other states. You really can't compare mating habits of deer to horses.

[Musky Buck]

I think to Bear there are so many pockets in the state where a doe would die of exhaustion trying to find a mature buck while she is in heat and or that only lonely mature buck is probably sitting with his junk in cold water saying hang on ladies geez give me a break so the 1 1/2 year olds get some lovin, think they are cool, and like some college fella's, back to the trail to find another. AR- Well we killed about 250,000 deer or so. How many yearling bucks ? I'll guess let's say 80,000 I don't know. Take kids and elderly out of the equation let's say 60,000. What if the night before next rifle opener magically we could drop 60,000 2 1/2 year olds into MN, what would that picture look like ? From that then I wonder how many could survive it to go to 3 1/2, etc. etc. I don't want to open the baiting thing again, FYI, my brother in law and his father each took a 220 lber, 150 class maybe more kind of a buck. I asked him what was the scenario that led you and your dad to all these nice bucks over the years other than practicing go/grow etc. He said the mighty oak tree, if the acorn crop is plentiful at bow opener,................bingo.

[Archerysniper]

Shh Musky Buck your gonna let everyone know my secret. And you can make a specific tree or group better with a little fertilizer.

[Bear55]

I'm on to you guys, I just started planting oaks last year. In the area I hunt there are almost no oaks around, I plan to have a monopoloy on them in about 30 years.

[DaveT]

I personally am tired of arguing and tired of waiting for things to get better. That is why I spent last weekend in Kansas, Missouri and Iowa lining up spots to hunt this fall. I have over 4000 acres to hunt in 3 states and the only money I spend will be on tags, gas, food and taxidermists.

Maybe I am wasting my digital breath and I should give up and just keep leaving MN to find quality hunting. I thought the pic of our hunt in Kansas spoke volumes about what we could have here, apparently some guys don't believe it's possible, or refuse to sacrifice an inch to gain a mile. I promise to update you with more pics of our out of state hunts this fall. When I do, remember, we are not on guided hunts, we are not paying to hunt, we are regular guys with regular jobs hunting regular old farmland, just like you. We have discovered that better deer hunting exists than we have in MN and that is why we hunt there. I believe we could have the same kind of hunting in a large portion of MN with minimal sacrifice, but I am not willing to hunt forkhorns here when I could be hunting Booners elsewhere. In my opinion, the only difference between MN and other midwestern states is the philosophy of the DNR and hunter attitudes. Unfortunately, these are proving to be the hardest things to change. I believe the increase in seasons and season length has actually diminished the hunt for many. Deer are treated like land carp, take as many as you can for as long as you want. Hunters have adopted that attitude and now feel like it is their right to fill a freezer with venison every fall.

I remember when it was a big deal to shoot any deer, let alone a buck. I know those conditions still exist in parts of this state, and I'm not suggesting we force anything on those areas. But, for those areas at or near population goals, there is no need to fill a freezer with yearling bucks when that freezer could be filled with does. If we need to legislate that attitude change, then so be it. Where do I sign?

[james_walleye]

Your right on Dave, anyone i've talked to that hunts those nearby states have said the same thing. I agree with your assessment of what separates MN and those states, they have different philosophies.

[picksbigwagon]

Yes, I have changed some of my opinions in the last 2 months that these posts have been popping up. I see the need to stop cross tagging bucks, I see it, I agree with it, I am not sure how or if it could be enforced. No doubt private QDM works, it has worked in the land I used to hunt in Houston county. I have no idea how the state could implement it, besides going with an Antler restriction or requirement, whatever the R stands for. who ever likened this to catch an release bass fishing is right. Education, talking with your neighbors, getting big areas with lots of land owners agreeing to let the little ones walk is the only way to get this done. The state would never come down and say that.

I know that Iowa doesn't have that requirement, nor does Wisconsin. I don't agree with the state stepping in and making us age deer before we shoot them.

I think moving firearm seasons out of the rut would be a great start. I personally would like to see no one hunting during the rut. But would be satisfied with moving the firarm season back until at least thanksgiving if not the week after it. But we are dealing with the state of Minnesota where traditions rule....

I am not sure how much new info there is to add to this topic, there is a lot to read here and a lot to digest and think about.

[BobT]

I've always wondered why, when the deer herd was suffering in numbers enough to require buck only seasons, we continued to hunt those bucks during the rut. It never made any sense to me and seemed counter-productive. Of course, the bucks are bigger during the rut, aren't they with their necks and shoulders swelled up to twice their normal size and weight if not more. We wouldn't get true trophies outside the rut when their necks and shoulders are skinny and their bodies worn out and beat up unless we only mounted the antlers and skipped the bust mounts.

Bob

[PEATMOSS]

I used to worry a bit about PETA and the ultra-liberal gungrabbers ruining the great heritage of hunting and fishing that is such a huge part of my life. I've got to admit to a growing concern I have with a certain segment within the outdoor community. I really don't want to see fishing and hunting go the way it has in Europe where only a wealthy few can participate.

Yes, I know we're a ways from that scenario, but I'm seeing trends that truly disturb me. Reducing the great heritage and tradition of deer hunting to a game of antler quest is one of those trends.

I wish that those that have the finances, family and work situations that allow them great opportunities would more carefully ponder the effects of forcing their attitudes and values on others. There seems to be a perverse sense of entitlement and self rightousness among certain folks. If you think I'm being paranoid, check out the "who should make the rules" thread in the archery section of this very site.

I've said it before, and I'll continue to say it, IF antlers are so important to such a large number of folks, then the situation will take care of itself and there is no need for new laws. If it is not, then this is just a case of a vocal minority pushing it's agenda on the majority.

[propster]

Hey Picks, nice post. I'm glad to see that some of your thoughts on these subjects have changed. I also have come to at least a little bit better understanding of where some of the guys with opposing views are coming from. It hasn't changed my opinion of of what I would certainly love to see in Minnesota, where I have bought a bow license every year and haven't even used it the last 3. I just wish more people were less afraid of what they "might" lose, and be more willing to embrace what they will "likely" gain. And if having to read an extra page or two of regulations is our biggest gripe, well...how committed are we really to what we supposedly hold so dear?

[Bowfin]

I guess if I experienced some of the dismal pictures some guys are painting I may feel differently about AR and party hunting bucks. But I certainly know all the young and mature bucks on the northern Minnesota public lands I hunt are not getting shot off every year like it sounds like they do in other parts of the State. I can say I am a "meat hunter" and have tried my best to shoot any antlered buck I could in my northern Minnesota big woods area I have been hunting for 25 years. I hunt with a big party with plenty of tags. This is how successful I have been in the last decade at trying to shoot all the bucks I could:

2000 - fork

2001 - doe, nice ten pointer

2002 - doe

2003 - doe

2004 - Nice eight, nice heavy six, antlerless buck (oops)

2005 - large 1-antler 5 point (would have been a large 10 if it had both antlers), spike

2006 - 2 antlerless bucks (my first kills with a muzzy - cool!)

2007 - doe

2008 - skunked - Although I had what appeared to be a nice 8 and a small 6 get by me in the thick brush at less than 20 yards

In the last 9 years the number of "nice" bucks I have been seeing is keeping up to the number of small antlered bucks. Many years I don't get a chance at any buck. Don't impose AR in the big woods area because:

- with all the cover its challenge getting any buck - for instance I haven't killed any antlered buck since 2005 - I'd get a thrill out of getting a chance at even a smaller one this year.

- being so thick, many times its near impossible to count points in time to shoot - I'd feel really bad mistakenly shooting a buck that wasn't legal if AR were in place - most of the nicer bucks I have shot I hadn't known how many points they had until I killed them - I just knew they had antlers.

- with all the cover many bucks are surviving the hunting season already.

- true "meat hunters" are probably not the problem - they take the first nice deer they can - many times its a doe. Over the last 25 years I have taken 30 deer (15 antlered bucks and 15 antlerless deer). I didn't plan it to happen that way - it just did.

[Musky Buck]

Slight confusion, in the last 9 years, in this thick cover you hunt, the number of large bucks is keeping up with the small buck population, then why no buck since 2005 ? It must be thick if you can't identify a buck at less than 20 yards. Interesting, but if you can not brush blast at less than 20 yards do the same if unsure about a buck at further range ? I know devils advocate I don't feel up north AR would be the answer but leaving little bucks go/grow would work anywhere I would think it makes sense, but the north country woods and timber is a different ballgame.

[BobT]

I’ll share where some of my reasoning comes from.

We have party hunted the same area for nearly 20 years and our party has been as small as two and as large as eight. We don’t purposely practice QDM where we hunt although typically once a hunter in our party takes a deer he trophy hunts the rest of the season. Not always but most of the time that’s how it works. Two years ago my daughter took a decent opening morning 8-pointer that dressed about 175 and two hours later my nephew dropped a beautiful 185 lb. 10-pointer that looked like an offspring of a 10-pointer I got about 10 years ago. A week later my brother dropped a 205 lb. 12-pointer from the same stand my nephew used. Last year one of our party dropped a 185 lb.12-pointer on opening day. My brother has many such racks with one 14-pointer that dressed out at nearly 210. We don’t bait, we don’t use mineral or salt blocks, we don’t use decoys, we don’t plant food plots, and we don’t pre-scout. Some of us do use scents while hunting.

You see why I don’t think QDM is as necessary as others? I believe the deer are out there but there are so many deer that the number of smaller/younger ones taken is just higher and so we hear about it. If the deer population was lower we wouldn’t be taking all the small uneducated bucks because we just wouldn’t be filling all the tags we do today. There just has to be some that make it through the season, get smarter, and grow larger. We hunters might be good at hunting but we’re not that good even though we might think we are.

Bob

[Bear55]

I used to worry a bit about PETA and the ultra-liberal gungrabbers ruining the great heritage of hunting and fishing that is such a huge part of my life. I've got to admit to a growing concern I have with a certain segment within the outdoor community. I really don't want to see fishing and hunting go the way it has in Europe where only a wealthy few can participate.

Yes, I know we're a ways from that scenario, but I'm seeing trends that truly disturb me. Reducing the great heritage and tradition of deer hunting to a game of antler quest is one of those trends.

I wish that those that have the finances, family and work situations that allow them great opportunities would more carefully ponder the effects of forcing their attitudes and values on others. There seems to be a perverse sense of entitlement and self rightousness among certain folks. If you think I'm being paranoid, check out the "who should make the rules" thread in the archery section of this very site.

I've said it before, and I'll continue to say it, IF antlers are so important to such a large number of folks, then the situation will take care of itself and there is no need for new laws. If it is not, then this is just a case of a vocal minority pushing it's agenda on the majority.

Everyone talks about the great heritage and traditions of hunting, every photo I have seen from back in the day had a couple of nice bucks hanging. If you look at todays deer poles its nothing but young bucks and a couple of does. Our grandfathers may have shot everything they saw but it was a balance harvest of does and buck that spread across differet age classes. If changing a few laws can get us back to the good old days I say lets go for it.

The rest of your post is bit exteme and speaks for itself as soon as you start comparing hunting to PETA and gun grabbers.

[Bear55]

We don’t purposely practice QDM where we hunt although typically once a hunter in our party takes a deer he trophy hunts the rest of the season. Not always but most of the time that’s how it works.

This is one of the big problems, not trying to call you out Bob just saying in general too many people do this to the point of over harvesting young bucks. We are allowed to shoot as many bucks as we see as a party. A lot of guys blast away at everything they see, then once they have a deer or two or more they start to trophy hunt. Even then I have heard guys say they are trophy hunting and then come back with a spike be cause someone else would have got it anyway or another guy they know needs a deer. Buck tags are just so abundant you can alwasy find one. If we could just eliminate buck party hunting we could easily save a nice number of young bucks. As soon as people know hey I can only shoot one buck and thats it they might think twice about pulling the trigger. Then if you are only a meat hunter you can still shot whatever you please.

[DaveT]

I think I have been a little bit misunderstood by some. I frequently point to Iowa and other midwest states as models for what the hunting could be like here. Those other states have a more balanced age structure in their herds than we do in most if not all of our state. Those states, other than certain counties in Missouri, do not have laws directly protecting young bucks. What they do have is a balanced herd that has enough young bucks in it to satisfy the meat hunter who doesn't care about antlers, and enough mature bucks to satisfy the trophy hunter, who does care about antlers. In some areas they have this because there is little hunting pressure. Other areas have it because private individuals choose not to shoot immature deer on ground they control. Some areas have shorter seasons or limits on what weapons they can use.

What they all have in common is a balanced age structure, and it matters little to me how they achieved it. Even in these states, mature bucks are the smallest segment of the population, but they might be 10%, where as ours is probably 2%. Once a population has this balance, the harvest naturally will follow suit with the population, provided the hunters don't wipe it out. That is what I am after, 1 or 2 years of lowering the buck harvest a little to get a few bucks through to their 2nd or 3rd birthday, then a little protection, such as no buck party hunting,to keep the balance in place.

Once that is done, there will be enough bucks of all classes to satisfy the meat hunter and the trophy hunter. I do not expect to see a trophy behind every tree, there isn't going to be a trophy behind every tree. You may not even notice a difference if you hunt 3 or 5 days a year, because there are too many variables that can effect your individual success in such a short period of time. I will notice the difference because I hunt a minimum of 100 hours a year, and time in the woods is the greatest factor in determining my success. If there are 10 trophys in the area I hunt instead of 2, the odds just went up substantially that I will see 1 at some point during those 100 hours.

These other states don't need to regulate antler restrictions because the herd is balanced, and the hunters do it themselves. Some like antlers, some don't care, and they naturally spread their harvest out amongst what they have. Our current situation doesn't allow this natural selection to take place, because the herd is 95% yearlings and so is the harvest. Those of us who choose to not shoot yearlings are not helping to balance the age structure, we are only helping some guys fill their freezers.

If you only have 1 opportunity to kill a buck each year, I want you to kill that buck, regardless of how old it is or isn't. What I don't want is for you to kill 3 or 4 bucks each year.

I don't think that is asking very much.

[Bowfin]

Slight confusion, in the last 9 years, in this thick cover you hunt, the number of large bucks is keeping up with the small buck population, then why no buck since 2005 ? It must be thick if you can't identify a buck at less than 20 yards. Interesting, but if you can not brush blast at less than 20 yards do the same if unsure about a buck at further range ? I know devils advocate I don't feel up north AR would be the answer but leaving little bucks go/grow would work anywhere I would think it makes sense, but the north country woods and timber is a different ballgame.

I hunt public land that has been logged over the last 25 years. Hunting thick 20 year old pine plantations or aspen regeneration the deer aren't seen until they are 20-30 yards away and you only have a short time to identify, pick your shot and shoot. I guess the point I was trying to make is that its hard to count points under those circumstances and also even though I have plenty of party tags available and willing to shoot any buck, I have not been able to stack up 4-5 small bucks yearly - I am lucky many years to get any buck. Also, the bucks I have been seeing seem to be an equal number of nice bucks and small bucks. The key is no bucks since '05 small or large.

[BobT]

Dave, that was a very nicely put, well thought out way to put it. One thing I noticed is that you didn't refer to it as herd health but instead referred to it as herd age balance. I think there's a huge difference.

When we equate herd health to deer age it begs the question, "health by who's standard?" Health by the trohpy hunter's standard would imply a higher percentage of adult deer and perhaps even a lower percentage of deer overall whereas a herd health by a meat hunter's standard is probably just the opposite - more, younger deer.

I don't think outlawing buck party hunting will help simply because it can't really be enforced very well. I would be more inclined to think we could invert the antlerless lottery structure and make it an antlered lottery structure. Now at least the buck harvest can be regulated through licensing similar to how we manage doe populations now.

In areas where the doe severely outnumber bucks, antlered permits could be required and vise versa.

Bob

[Musky Buck]

I got ya Bowfin, I hear that, good to hear there is a good age structure where you are, I wish everywhere we had that. How do you ever get a deer in that less than 20 yard stuff ? That's giving you less than 60 feet to make your shot. That's some close bangin' bowfin. Bear55 and Dave, right on guys. I hear ya Bob, but first if we can get put in the no buck party hunting, sure lots would still skirt that by walking a licensed hunter to the downed buck and tagging it and if checked would lie and say I got it but trying to give hunters the benefit of the doubt, I think enough guilty consciences would change a lot of people and our future hunters would grow up with this 1 buck per hunter which would make a lot of guys more patient with their buck tag which would save a lot of them for there future and others future hunts. Also, it would get some people out of the woods and spread out the hunters a little. It wouldn't infringe on anyone taking any buck, it would hopefully curtail the guys shooting 5 or 6 or just multiple bucks. In a way we have no idea how much of this is going on, but it would be a good starting point.

[Bear55]

The problem with a buck lotto is it has very little support so the DNR won't touch it. Myself and many others here might be for it but that is about it. While party hunting for bucks may be hard to enforce over time it will just be the way things are and guys will accept it. Sure it might take a few guys getting busted in certain areas but I think most hunters are law abiding citizens. I think most people breaking any buck party hunting law might get caught by TIP the first couple years, after that fear of being turned might be enough to keep people in line.

[Big Dave2]

I think I have been a little bit misunderstood by some. I frequently point to Iowa and other midwest states as models for what the hunting could be like here. Those other states have a more balanced age structure in their herds than we do in most if not all of our state. Those states, other than certain counties in Missouri, do not have laws directly protecting young bucks.