Deer hunting as it should (could) be

[Stratosman]

Also it's all related to where in the state one lives, southeast is far more conducive to growing quality deer than is say parts of western minnesota, steep bluffs and thick ravines vs. flat woodlots surrounded by open fields... so it's hard to categorize the whole state into one classification as far as the number and quality of deer, where as Iowa, Wisconsin, Missouri, all have pretty much the same terrain and high quality soils and good farm country, all important to growing quality deer. So it's hard to compare MN with other states or even assume that we could be the same....however, with that being said I think that there are a few things that could be done differently from a management standpoint, such as a later gun date. And I would be all for it, but alot of people, as mentioned, couldn't care less about the size of the deer they shoot, and God bless them, hunting is what you want it to be. I happen to be one that likes to shoot a nice tender doe then go after a big guy...doesn't always happen, but when it does there is no other feeling, and once you shoot a mature deer, a spike or fork isn't as exciting....for me anyway. Does that make me think I'm better than anyone else, shoot no, and I don't think that anyone feels like they are better than or degrade others that don't agree with them. Hey I've shot small bucks in the past, so I can't throw the first stone, and I'd bet most other hunters couldn't either. So lets not bicker and just agree that we won't agree, and have constructive conversations regarding the sport that we all love.

Happy hunting to all those with unused tags. And congratulaions to those without.

[Eskimoman]

Now as I have stated I dont feel its fair to impose trophy hunting on everyone. But there are 2 things I do agree with. Stop the party hunting. You shoot it, you tag it. And I would be up for moving the season later off of the peak rut. I think these two things would help everyone no matter their style of hunting, for meat or antlers.

[Badger]

I just got done reading this topic. I'm happy to see there is a forum where we can vent and agree to disagree. I couldn't agree more with those of you who would support some type of managment program that improves the quality of our deer herd. We all have our own reason's for hunting. For those that say it's about the venison...come on...really. It has to be about more than that because dollar for pound...you know the rest. Don't get me wrong, my family and I love vension. In fact my wife prefers vensison to beef. But, why shoot a small buck when there are so many opportunites to harvest a doe. Maybe it is ego, like someone in this topic said. "Yes, I shot my buck!! Big deal, what happened to those small anter's anyway? Probably tucked away in the garage. Let's start bragging about the doe's we harvest, send your buddies photo's of that doe, celebrate the kill, enjoy those tender back straps, and congratulate your buddies on taking that doe in-lieu of a small buck.

If there is truly a petition that only requires 5,000 signatures, sign me up. I'd love to see more quality deer hunting opportunites. I'd love to be there when my son or daughter get that buck of a lifetime.

Perhaps I could take that petition to Wisconsin where I own hunting property and get that state to look at it's baiting laws. I guess you could say that I practiced QDM on the small chunk of land I own. I passed up many forks, sixes, and small 8's so my neighbors can have a "quality" rifle season by harvesting those bucks over their corn piles (sorry, completely separate topic). I did take two does and did not "get my buck" and am OK with that.

Minnesota does have the potential to be a top deer hunting destination let's start practicing and promoting selective harvest, encourage earn-a-buck regulation when population control is needed, and promote a later rifle season. We can't fish for walleye's during there breeding season, but we can use high powered rifles to hunt deer during theirs...huh!

Great post Boosey! We also own land in WI and choose to pass on smaller racks. There are many trophy bucks taken every year in the area and there are many tasty does as well. We all love venison!

The problem with earn a buck is that so many guys have the "brown it's down" mentality, lots of nubbin bucks are killed to get the buck tag. Once they have the tag, they shoot a spike/fork/basket rack and complain about no "trophies." Let the small racks go, and harvest the does for table fare. Eventually, they will start seeing

quality racks.

I don't know why guys are questioning the Kansas hunt? Sounds like a fantastic trip (great pictures).

I've hunted for ducks/pheasants/sharptail in Montana, pheasant in Iowa & S. Dakota and a ton of fishing trips in Canada. There's nothing wrong with going out your state to enjoy the outdoors with family and friends.

Hope you have a safe/successful hunt in WI. WE NEED TO GET RID OF BAITING!!!!

[TimR]

<snip> We all have our own reason's for hunting. For those that say it's about the venison...come on...really.

No, Really. I haven't purchased beef in years. A little pork each year to mix with the ground and make sausage. It is a healthy, lean alternative to beef that has spent it's life in the outdoors, not a feedlot. I have respect for my food, it _is_ about the venison.

It has to be about more than that because dollar for pound...you know the rest.

Bought my rifle years ago. Tag is cheap. Butcher, process, and make sausage myself. I don't need to, I prefer to.

<snip> But, why shoot a small buck when there are so many opportunites to harvest a doe.

Lottery zone - hear of those?

Maybe it is ego, like someone in this topic said. "Yes, I shot my buck!!

Big buck, small buck, or doe... I eat them. Is that ego?

<snip>

Please keep in mind, this forum represents select percentage of MN deer hunters. There are many out there who do not participate here that DO hunt to put meat on the table every year, especially in these economic times.

So while nobody would be upset at seeing a giant walk by on opening morning, be careful to not discount or denigrate the opinions of folks for whom the goal in deer hunting is still aligned with food.

Tim

[shorebird]

You have shot your fair share of quality bucks in Minnesota and sent pictures of nice bucks you have taken in other states.

In our group when someone is so into himself that he has to continue to shot trophy bucks every year we just smile and tell him not to come back.

[Powerstroke]

Offering antlerless tags and such although might work to change the buck to do ratio and allow more bucks to survive to the next year, the average MN deer hunter does not see the sly logic in that.

That idea may work in the bigger picture, but it will not change the mindset of MN deer hunters. It also doesn't prevent or educate people about not shooting button bucks.

I realize the DNR makes money off of tags, but will people please stop referring to the management tags as being some sort of conspiracy theory to raise more money. Who does it serve if the DNR gives out too many tags and the population gets depressed in an area?? Doesn't really make much sense.

Look at the last DNR deer survey. It was on their HSOforum all last year. They went around the state talking to hunters and conservation groups getting feedback about deer management and the deer regulations. The main focus was about herd management and population management. When QDM-type principles were discussed, the majority of hunters were against the idea and had the full backing of the MN Deer Hunters Assn.

The MDHA has continued to argue for the ability to take more deer in MN with as many legal means possible. They are pushing for higher populations for a higher harvest.

It is true that waiting for a trophy is a personal choice. But if you hunt public land or only have a small 40-80acres, its impossible to manage for bigger deer. You have to hope that no one else around you shoots them when they are little.

Hence the poitn of the original argument, it you want a hunt with a chance at a higher quality buck, than other states are a better choice.

I will say again, I'm not against meat hunting. For those who think hunting deer is not a way to supplement your grocery bill you are sadly mistaken. I haven't bought ground beef in 2 years. I haven't bought beef steaks or roasts in at least 4 years. I'm gonna start making my own brats and I hope to not buy any of those again either. I do that with 2 does a year. I butcher them myself so the cost savings is tremendous. Just don't ask how much I spend on hunting gear, then it would be a loss.

We are all allowed to have our opinions so please be considerate of others. This conversation has been going very well so far.

[jigglestick]

Offering antlerless tags and such although might work to change the buck to do ratio and allow more bucks to survive to the next year, the average MN deer hunter does not see the sly logic in that.

That idea may work in the bigger picture, but it will not change the mindset of MN deer hunters. It also doesn't prevent or educate people about not shooting button bucks.

that's the beauty of it

as far as the button bucks go, there isn't a derned thing we can do about that. very few people actually think to try and differentiate between doe fawns and buck fawns, so with an antlerless tag, you can take a doe, a doe fawn or a buck faw.

only 1 out of 3 is the buck fawn so numbers are in our(buck hunters) favor. aside from the fact that many people let fawns walk..not all, but many, when they would indeed take the doe.

meat hunters, the buck hunters friend!

[bigbucks]

I try not to shoot the button bucks myself, but there are times when a button buck & a yearling doe, look very similar if all by themselves, which both many times are. I'd much rather see someone shoot a button buck which is replaceable next year & will only be another fawn then shoot a yearling buck that is half way there to being a decent buck. In the same token if a few yearling gets shot that's fine, what you don't want is a big party to consistenly shoot a whole pile of yearling bucks. That can get rid of a buck crop so next year there's virtually nothing but yearlings again.

[inspec_brad]

Will someone please start a petion to get some better guidelines for deer hunting?

[bigsandynorth1]

If you don't like to hunt in MN, that's fine. That will just allow us who love it here more opportunities. I love MN deer hunting, there are huge bucks here, it just takes a little work boys. It just makes it that much sweeter when you do get one, not to sound like a jack A** but go ahead and leave the state to hunt, bye, bye!

[BRULEDRIFTER]

If you don't like to hunt in MN, that's fine. That will just allow us who love it here more opportunities. I love MN deer hunting, there are huge bucks here, it just takes a little work boys. It just makes it that much sweeter when you do get one, not to sound like a jack A** but go ahead and leave the state to hunt, bye, bye!

AMEN! Don't let the door hit your............

[inspec_brad]

If you don't like to hunt in MN, that's fine. That will just allow us who love it here more opportunities. I love MN deer hunting, there are huge bucks here, it just takes a little work boys. It just makes it that much sweeter when you do get one, not to sound like a jack A** but go ahead and leave the state to hunt, bye, bye!

What is wrong with wanting to have a better deer herd, and bigger? We can have a bigger, and better deer herd if a couple of new guidelines were to be implemented. Come down here and you can see that the number of deer have been decreasing for the last two seasons. I have another post about it. I think in the end, or at least hope, that we all would like to have a bigger, and better deer population.

[deerminator]

I would like a bigger herd so the DNR let's us get more than one deer again in a lottery area but in terms of telling me how many points a buck has to have before I shoot, no thanks. There are enough laws. Make sure there is a large, healthy population and leave it up to the individual hunters to decide what is a trophy to them. And as noted by many other individuals, there are countless big bucks out there in MN. They're just not there for the easy taking.

[BuckKiller]

ill agree with DaveT to a point... yes the deer could be better but the huntig hasn't been that bad ( at least i've never had a problem getting nice deer) if your not seeing deer maybe you need to look for a new spot

[Powerstroke]

I don't think anyone is saying that the hunting itself is bad. Everyone has to agree that the last few years have been the best deer hunting MN has seen since pre-settlement times. Even then deer weren't very populous in MN because the habitat didn't support them really.

I think its a poor attitude to tell people to get the heck out if they don't like it. If you think this is the best hunting in MN can be than you're only settling for average.

The only reason things can keep getting better is with constructive criticism. If people didn't think things could get better than we wouldn't be where we are today. The DNR wouldn't keep trying to do better if hunters didn't ask them to keep up the good work and to try harder.

There is always room for improvement and that's what we're discussing.

[Bear55]

Well said Powerstroke. The hunting here is good but many of us feel it could be that much better. Yes we do have some big bucks in this state but when looking at our neighbors a person can't help but think of what could be.

I have gone back and forth on the issue but after thinking about it for a while I'm really not for antler restructions or any kind of forced QDM. However tweaking a few laws to protect some of the younger bucks isn't a bad idea, maybe its time to remove party hunting or move the gun season back a week or two. Lets face it as things are now those yearling bucks don't have a chance.

[Crappie Rage]

Here is what I don't understand. Where is the sacrifice?? What is anyone giving up if the DNR did something to improve the age structure of bucks. Let's see...

1. Start the season later. Hmmm no sacrifice, heck maybe more hunting time if it were around Thanksgiving!

2. No Party hunting. One buck, but most of the state you can shoot multiple does. Plus it not about the antlers, right?

3. 4 point antler restriction. O.K. here is the only sacrifice, but the beauty is, it is only a one year sacrifice. Next year every fork horn you couldn't shoot is now a 2.5 year old 8 pointer with a rack. And every year after that there are all the 2.5 year olds running around.

On a side note, if some deer could not be shot at all and if you had to identify whether a deer was a legal buck or not, maybe there would be one less tragedy every hunting season.

[slimngrizzly]

Sign me up CrappieRage

[Hoyt4]

This is a well covered topic.And I agree things could change to make things better.But I do not want anyone saying how big of deer I need to shoot or putting restrictions on the deer.When I have a kid and bring them hunting if they want to shoot a spike or a forky hey I will let them.If they could not do this it's already hard to get kids in the woods now a days.If they could not harvest a deer because of the antler size that would be wrong.A trophy is up to the individual not the guy down the block asking why you shot that basket 6.There is a story to all animals harvested I think.I know many of my deer taken have been with my dad and we do not get to hunt together as much but when we do if he shoots a small buck or I do it's like we just got a booner.The excitement with my old man is great and I would never want that to change.I know I'm not going out just to kill a deer.I have many season's that I have let nice deer go just cause I wanted to watch them.When I shoot a doe or buck I'm looking at the grill not the antlers.I'm not a trophy hunter and never will be.That's not why I started hunting.Everyone want's to shoot a big deer and trust me as most of you know MN has some large deer.Friend of mine hunts public land in MN they shot 1)170 class 1)150 class and a 130 class off public land all on opening weekend this year.If you put some work in you will get them.Up to you to let them walk if want but don't come by me if I need some steaks on the grill doe, buck they taste great to me.

[BuckKiller]

yes! that is a good point a trophy deer isn't always based on size.

And ill back you up on this also- you can find big bucks on public land in MN. just need to be smarter the the deer lol

[Big Dave2]

Originally Posted By: BARNEZ

By the way what is a good recipe for antlers?

I've never understood this logic. If you want food for the table, take a doe, not a small buck. Shooting a doe makes sense for many, many reasons. IMO shooting a little buck accomplishes three things usually: 1) it's great for those who haven't shot a buck or many deer before, 2) doesn't allow a small buck to grow into a big buck, and 3) most importantly, lets people pad their ego and say "I got my buck".

I hunt the 3A season on opening weekend. We can't shoot does down here.

[DaveT]

I've looked into some statistics from the state of MN and Iowa. MN has about 500,000 deer hunters and a herd around 1 million. We kill about 250,000 deer every year. From 1981 to 2000, MN put 300 bucks in Boone and Crockett.

Iowa has about 200,000 deer hunters and a herd around 300,000. They kill about 150,000 deer every year. From 1981 to 2000, Iowa put 500 bucks in Boone and Crockett.

They kill half of their deer herd every year and still find a way to have a well balanced herd that represents all age classes of deer. They kill half of their deer herd every year and still manage to put more bucks in the record book than we do. And they do it consistently.

How is that possible? Are the genetics in Iowa that much better than MN? Does the corn in Iowa have an antler growing supplement that MN corn doesn't?

It's possible because of sound management. There are hunters in Iowa that have the same "if it's brown it's down" mentality that we have here in MN. There are hunters in Iowa who only hunt for 2 or 3 days a year just like here in MN. Those hunters shoot the first legal deer they see just like they do here.

The difference is season structure and season dates. If you want all of your 1 and a half year old bucks to die, you hold your gun season during the rut. If you want an even harvest throughout your buck herd, you hold your gun season in December.

If you want every hunter to have equal opportunity, you limit each hunter to his or her own tag. If you want one group to fill out and another to get skunked, you allow party hunting.

If you want to virtually eliminate your buck herd, you allow unlimited antlerless permits and make no effort to educate the public about not shooting buck fawns.

Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus, and there are also some trophy bucks in MN. There's just a lot less than there used to be, and a lot less than there could be.

Once you've seen multiple bucks from stand, moving around naturally during the day, scraping, rubbing, fighting, breeding and doing the other things they do in a balanced herd, it is really hard to be satisfied with the deer hunting in this state.

IT IS NOT UP TO PAR!

Stop kidding yourselves and demand more from your DNR.

[Big Dave2]

Here is what I don't understand. Where is the sacrifice?? What is anyone giving up if the DNR did something to improve the age structure of bucks. Let's see...

1. Start the season later. Hmmm no sacrifice, heck maybe more hunting time if it were around Thanksgiving!

2. No Party hunting. One buck, but most of the state you can shoot multiple does. Plus it not about the antlers, right?

3. 4 point antler restriction. O.K. here is the only sacrifice, but the beauty is, it is only a one year sacrifice. Next year every fork horn you couldn't shoot is now a 2.5 year old 8 pointer with a rack. And every year after that there are all the 2.5 year olds running around.

On a side note, if some deer could not be shot at all and if you had to identify whether a deer was a legal buck or not, maybe there would be one less tragedy every hunting season.

I think that part of the reason that there may not be quite as large of bucks as there are in other states is because a lot of Minnesota's deer hunting land is public. Probably a lot more than any of these other states that have the huge bucks. So they may have large bucks but the only way you will ever have of accessing it will probably be to pay an outfitter. Here in MN on public land it is a lot harder to implement QDM unless you use those restrictive guidelines like in your post. If they implemented all of the things that you state there would be a lot less hunters buying deer tags each year because the laws would be too restrictive for most.

Where I hunt opening weekend in 3A if we couldn't shoot immature bucks we would harvest very few deer in the woods where we hunt. We can't shoot Does so that would leave us with nothing.

Take away party hunting and if you shoot your huge buck at 8:00am on opening morning, what do you do for the rest of the time that you are at deer camp?

[Wapiti]

This is a very long subject which I don't have time to read entirely, but I think I am seeing the premise of it.

MN does have some nice bucks, but if anyone thinks that the buck herd in this state is where it should or could be, they obviously haven't hunted in a state like Wisc, Iowa, Ill, Kansas, ND, Neb. etc. I'll invite anyone who thinks different to tag along on a couple of hunts with me next year...they will change their mind, Period! I'm not saying that deer hunting is all about the rack here either, I eat alot of venison from does every year, but let's remember what the original post was!

[jltimm]

DaveT Very good post, and i agree with you 100%! People just don't get it?