Deer hunting as it should (could) be

[DaveT]

Can't blame him, he probably has never hunted deer anywhere but here. He has no idea what a quality deer hunting experience is. 90 percent of the guys in this state are lucky to see 1 buck, let alone 26. The average deer hunter in MN can't fathom how good the hunting is some places. He probably watches the hunting videos and says that they are all in preserves. Some of them are, most are not. Lakosky, Kisky, Drury, Miller, Potts, Primos, etc. these guys hunt where the hunting is good. Fair chase, wild deer. Granted, they have access to the very best properties in the very best states, but rest assured those are wild deer they shoot.

It's easy to pass up young deer in a situation like yours, Griz, because you know you have to stop hunting as soon as you kill one.

Anyway, don't let the knuckleheads get you down.

[Scoot]

By the way what is a good recipe for antlers?

I've never understood this logic. If you want food for the table, take a doe, not a small buck. Shooting a doe makes sense for many, many reasons. IMO shooting a little buck accomplishes three things usually: 1) it's great for those who haven't shot a buck or many deer before, 2) doesn't allow a small buck to grow into a big buck, and 3) most importantly, lets people pad their ego and say "I got my buck".

[BARNEZ]

I dont need to go anywhere, when I can take great deer right here, given I do hunt 4.5 hours from where I live. Some people just know what they are doing when they go out hunting it's in the blood. Like I said, I see plenty of DEER when I'm out hunting, when other people just dont see a thing. I do like the fact YOU dont have to sit all day to see a deer, but somewhere here challenge was mentioned. I would perfer if more people would leave state to hunt. I hunt for the old way of survival, not for pumping my chest and thinking I'm the man.

[BARNEZ]

I have hunted Montana for Elk, considering I could'nt find any here!!!

[jltimm]

I'd be happy just to see a real live deer where I'm hunting in the great state of MN!

[DaveT]

The point of my original post was this: the deer hunting in MN has gotten steadily worse the last few years, and it was not that good (comparitively speaking) to begin with. I have killed my fair share of bucks in MN, including 2 P&Y's, and a couple that just miss. I have witnessed firsthand the decline in quality and quantity of bucks in the areas I hunt (metro). I attribute that to the seasons and limits set by our DNR. Nothing else has changed.

I strongly encourage every Minnesotan to go hunt Iowa, Illinois, Missouri, or Kansas before you try to convince me how good we have it here, I already know.

[MUSKYMAN1011]

"I strongly encourage every Minnesotan to go hunt Iowa, Illinois, Missouri, or Kansas before you try to convince me how good we have it here, I already know."

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I'm with you on that DaveT

I too hope many people decide to hunt elsewhere (other States)

Fewer Hunters for me to compete with here in MN.

I strongly encourage everyone to Fish elsewhere too!

[Eskimoman]

The point of my original post was this: the deer hunting in MN has gotten steadily worse the last few years, and it was not that good (comparitively speaking) to begin with. I have killed my fair share of bucks in MN, including 2 P&Y's, and a couple that just miss. I have witnessed firsthand the decline in quality and quantity of bucks in the areas I hunt (metro). I attribute that to the seasons and limits set by our DNR. Nothing else has changed.

I strongly encourage every Minnesotan to go hunt Iowa, Illinois, Missouri, or Kansas before you try to convince me how good we have it here, I already know.

Havent the derr harvests the last few years been near the top in the books for MN? Now it does sound like this year is down but one year does not make a trend.

What was hunting first inteded for? MEAT. That is what it is still about. I have no problem with trophy hunters at all. In fact I ate my tag this year and the last and I passed up 5 bucks. I like shooting big deer but I dont think people should be forced to wait for big deer. There are plenty of big bucks in Mn. You have to go out and work for them. In my mind it would be alot more rewarding for me to scout and hunt public land and come out with a nice 130 than pay and go down to Kansas for a weekend and pick out a 150 to shoot. There are stages deer hunters go through, Just like you where taught in gun safety. Trophy hunters bash on the meat hunters saying things like "You dont know what its like to actually kill a big buck" Little do they know if they stepped up to the method stage they would see how rewarding it is to do things the hard way. When success is secondary.

I just dont see why everybody here has been bashing Mn. If you are too lazy to go find the big bucks go somwhere else.

[deerminator]

If everyone in Minnesota is indeed so obsessed with getting a huge buck each year, then it should be pretty easy to lobby the DNR or lawmakers to create even more laws for us to follow like antler point restrictions. Enough people griped to the DNR that they weren't seeing the number of deer that they wanted and looked what happened, boom, a huge chunk of the state, almost half, is now lottery. Granted, some of that is based on deer numbers but the hunters complaining are what pushed it over the edge for the DNR to crack down and eliminate the all season loophole.

As for hunting shows, I do think they set unrealistic expectations for the average hunter. Most popular hunting shows out there right now are nowhere near reality when it comes to hunting for the average guy or gal who hunts. Most don't own land and those that do don't own thousands of acres they can afford to sit on for 3 years while the 120 class bucks grow to 180. Or pay the landowners around them not to shoot the big bucks so they can do it and get it on film. No, most hunters have a small farm that's been in the family for years or were able to take out a loan on a couple of hundred acres. And they'd give their left chestnut for a 130 class buck with decent antlers .

What gets my goat is when the guys on the hunting shows look into the camera and tell you that you're never gonna shoot a 180 class buck if you don't let the 130 walk when they're not hunting in the "real world" per se. Or when they claim you're not shooting that 180 like they are because you're not scouting or hunting hard enough like they are on their carefully managed, extremely expensive and unrealistic for the average guy spread.

I watch the Drury show and others like it because they are entertaining, not because it symbolizes what my hunting will ever be like. Sure, I may get to hunt like them sometimes when I can find permission with the right landowner or in the right setup but not as consistently as they do. I don't have the time or money. As per the average guy, for me, it's a hobby and I scout and hunt as much as I am able but its less than I'd like.

[Jim916]

So what happens here when the land gets leased and the people who do not own any land have nowhere to hunt? We are already limited on the land that we can hunt. It is getting smaller every year.

Do we want outfitters coming in and leasing the prime hunting land? It has already started.

I myself saw 2 nice bucks opening day. I never got a shot, but it was the first time in a long time seeing 2 nice bucks in one day.

Like several people have said and I know several people who do this: "They are here, you just need to work for the big deer in Minnesota." I have 2 friends that get one almost every year. They scout a lot and hunt a lot. I wish I had more time.

[Bear55]

DaveT

You bring up an interesting point about all the extra tags handed out and how they may have affected the button buck population. Someone correct me if I am wrong but I believe you can tag a button buck with a extra tag. Why not take out that loop hole to force guys to use their buck tag on a small buck, it might get a few more people to at least look and be sure what they are shooting at.

Deerminator I agree about the tv shows, they are purly entertainment and not a realistic look at hunting. I would love to watch some of those guys stumble around the bigwoods trying to score a buck.

[slimngrizzly]

I have to agree with everything DaveT has said.

BTW... You dont just go to other states and "pick your 150". Where I hunt in Mn I would say that a large percent of the time im hunting theres not a 150 inch deer within a few square mile area. Going to other states.... there not any easier to shoot, theres just more of them. So you know the chance is there. Id LOVE to shoot a Boone & Crocket buck or find the sheds off one and its probably not going to happen in my part of MN, not because because I dont work at it, but because they ALMOST dont exsist. I have seveal great friends in Wisconsin, Iowa, Saskatchewan who all have never shot a 150 inch buck even though there are several out there doorstep. Knowing they are there keeps them from shooting the little ones though. And the things they see a time or two each season are once-in-a-lifetime here in MN.

I agree the Drurys have it better that the rest of us and its unrealistic and it burns me when they say I need to work harder. BUT one thing they are right on about is, AS A MAJORITY, you wont kill 180's if you kill 130's. Killing a 130 statisticly decreases your odds of shooting a larger buck. So you might not like hearing it from Mr. Drury, but he couldnt be any more right! Whether its passing a 70" to shoot a 125", or passing a 140" to shoot a 190"..... You wont kill more big deer by killing small ones, ill guarantee it!

[Boosey]

I just got done reading this topic. I'm happy to see there is a forum where we can vent and agree to disagree. I couldn't agree more with those of you who would support some type of managment program that improves the quality of our deer herd. We all have our own reason's for hunting. For those that say it's about the venison...come on...really. It has to be about more than that because dollar for pound...you know the rest. Don't get me wrong, my family and I love vension. In fact my wife prefers vensison to beef. But, why shoot a small buck when there are so many opportunites to harvest a doe. Maybe it is ego, like someone in this topic said. "Yes, I shot my buck!! Big deal, what happened to those small anter's anyway? Probably tucked away in the garage. Let's start bragging about the doe's we harvest, send your buddies photo's of that doe, celebrate the kill, enjoy those tender back straps, and congratulate your buddies on taking that doe in-lieu of a small buck.

If there is truly a petition that only requires 5,000 signatures, sign me up. I'd love to see more quality deer hunting opportunites. I'd love to be there when my son or daughter get that buck of a lifetime.

Perhaps I could take that petition to Wisconsin where I own hunting property and get that state to look at it's baiting laws. I guess you could say that I practiced QDM on the small chunk of land I own. I passed up many forks, sixes, and small 8's so my neighbors can have a "quality" rifle season by harvesting those bucks over their corn piles (sorry, completely separate topic). I did take two does and did not "get my buck" and am OK with that.

Minnesota does have the potential to be a top deer hunting destination let's start practicing and promoting selective harvest, encourage earn-a-buck regulation when population control is needed, and promote a later rifle season. We can't fish for walleye's during there breeding season, but we can use high powered rifles to hunt deer during theirs...huh!

[Eskimoman]

Well if your so sure there isnt a 150 in 5 miles why hunt there. Try heading up to a vast chunk of northwoods like the superior national forest. Some people actually like not knowing what could walk by them. Try scouting and hanging some stands in different areas. Learn from experience. That would be too much work for most people. Way more fun to go Kansas and know you will see a big buck darn near every sit.

[CMKURT]

I can agree with some of the posts here. One question part of QDM is to get a balanced herd of 1 to 1 or so of bucks to does. The reasoning for this is to get a true rut. My question is say you do get to the point of 15 deer per sq. mile 8 are mature 3.5+ bucks, these 8 bucks plus interlopers beat the tar out of each other the winners do there thing, then come nov 20 it starts snowing & doesn't stop till may. What happens to all the worn out trophy's that can't get enough food to survive a harsh winter in Minnesota.

Who feeds them & why? or coyote food. Granted we've had mild winters but it is cyclical. There is a fine line to watch.

[Cooter]

I'm still drooling over those pics from KS, all in a weeks hunt with bow - wow!

[Powerstroke]

The problem with this discussion has compared apples to oranges in many cases. There are many topics going at once.

The heritage of deer hunting in MN is mainly about meat hunting. We are currently in the "good old days" of deer hunting in that there have never been so many of them. It used to be that you couldn't even see a deer in 2 weeks of hunting. People shot whatever came by whether it was a legal spike or a 150. Antlers were nice, but meat filled the freezer.

Now that we have more deer in MN people think that we should have more big bucks. Unfortunately, only a few counties routinely produce large bucks. They can happen all over the state, but only if people try or the deer have low hunter pressure and a perfect habitat.

In other states, they have tried to manage for higher "quality" deer and more non-res attention. If you're drawing non-res hunters, than the residents should be happy too.

That only works if the residents in your state want quality also. If your state still thinks meat in the freezer is adequate for a hunting policy than it will continue to regulate antlerless deer instead of the bucks which please people no matter how big they are and don't use sounds scientific evidence that QDM ideas (not the entire policy) can work on a large statewide scale.

In MN I have met way too many people with spike and forkhorns mounted on plaques. They obviously value the bucks antlers, no matter how big they are.

I have nothing against meat hunters, I'm one of them. I've never shot a buck with antlers in my life. I still believe that MN does a poor job of managing for bucks in general of any size.

I've hunted deer at least 20 days this season, maybe more. I've only seen 2 antlered bucks, a small 6 and a small 8. Everything else was antlerless. That adds to about 40 deer.

The MN DNR manages for quantity not quality and that matches the overall feeling of MN hunters.

Either the hunters of MN need to change or the DNR has to force it. Since neither are going to make that move, it will continue to remain a state of adequate deer herds, but few trophies.

That is the reason to venture out of state to explore different ideas and philosophies about hunting.

I would love to hunt all week and see 26 bucks and go home empty handed. Its never happened to me in MN. I understand why you didn't shoot one. Anyone who criticizes you doesn't understand the goal of your hunt.

We need to be tolerant of everyone's "reason for hunting".

I said before, that if the state managed for higher quality, the residents would get more opportunities for those deer AND it would draw in more non-res hunters, paying higher fees and keeping resident tag fees down. The proof is in all the neighboring states and the western states.

There would be some growing pains as the hunters in MN learn to adopt a new philosophy, but overall I think everyone would be happier. All the other midwestern states are proof.

[jigglestick]

Question? What is the fascination with antler score?

if you have to ask, you wouldn't understand.

it's more than about the horns. along with the horns comes the unmatchable senses that ONLY a mature whitetail buck possesses.

only the most skilled or the most lucky hunters can ever conquer.

those bucks I swear possess extra senses we are not even aware of.

it pushes one to the limits of his /her own skill, to places one never dreamed they could get to.

again, if you have to ask, you wouldn't understand.

the achievement of over coming those senses and actually being able to take one of those great animals is so earth shakingly exciting, it's better than...well again if you have to ask....

lets just say this, a trophy is in the eye of the beholder.

if that little fork horn rack trips your trigger and always has and always will that is great!

if you don't understand the excitement of hunting,out smarting and taking a true mature white tailed buck, you probably never will.

[sticknstring]

Good post Powerstroke - I agree with much of what you said.

On a different topic...

Quote:

My question is say you do get to the point of 15 deer per sq. mile 8 are mature 3.5+ bucks, these 8 bucks plus interlopers beat the tar out of each other the winners do there thing, then come nov 20 it starts snowing & doesn't stop till may. What happens to all the worn out trophy's that can't get enough food to survive a harsh winter in Minnesota.

First of all, let me say this is a problem I'd like to have! Second of all, I don't see any correlation between the age structure of the herd and the winter severity index. The carrying capacity of any given habitat can sustain x amount of deer, regardless of their age. By having more mature bucks, chances are high that there will be less does, leaving more browse. I think the deer would be better off, not worse. Bucks are most often first to succumb to the elements I agree, but I don't think by having several mature bucks in one area is cause for concern. We start in January with supplemental feeding every year.

[slimngrizzly]

Ya... If the winter is going to kill off too many big, old bucks the the Canadian provinces would be deerless. With the exception of a few "injured in battle" bucks, id say thats a non-issue.

[CSTPETER]

I've also gotta agree with Dave T. I've had the good fortune to watch the orange mob around here knock down anything that moves the last two weeks. Now I consider myself a hard core deer hunter but I'm starting to realize my deer hunting dollars could be better spent in a different part of the country.

I always here the same couple of arguments from the Brown it's down crew

1. "You can't eat the antlers" or "I just hunt deer for the food" While I understand what you guys are saying it still doesn't rationalize shooting a small buck, If you can't eat the antlers then don't shoot a deer with any antlers! seems like it would be a waste for you guys, no matter what size the head gear is.

Secondly, if your really hunting for food you should probably find a more cost effective way to feed your family. Unless your an alaskan native I don't think subsistence hunting really exists anymore.

2. "I'm worried about all of the outfitters coming to lease up the land if we start growing big deer".

NEWS FLASH: this is going to happen no matter what! It might not be by the outfitters right away but it will start with all of the disenfranchised deer hunters in the state who hunt their tales off for two months only to see the little bucks they pass on get mowed down during rifle season. If i could find a couple of like minded hunters to go in with me I would go visit every farm in the county and lease up as much ground as I possibly could. It might take a some time and money to do but if you had enough adjacent ground you would see a difference.

As an aside, I would submit that most deer hunters who have harvested or had a close encounter with a Big mature whitetail will never forget it. It's the epitome of deer hunting and some of the most exciting moments you will ever live in your life!! I'd guess it's these encounters that turn most guys onto QDM. Once you experience it you'll be more conscientous about the way you hunt.

[jigglestick]

The MN DNR manages for quantity not quality and that matches the overall feeling of MN hunters.

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powerstroke,

though that may have been a true statement a few years ago, say five, it in my opinion isn't true any longer.

when our new commissioner came to post things and attitudes have changed.

a big push from high dollar hunters complaining of being able to keep up with neighboring states as far as trophy deer hunting was concerned.

I agree the state managed deer herds to have quantity, thus equaling more tags sold = more revenue.

the cwd and bovine tuberculosis are smoke screens to get to the real agenda here and that being to kill four birds with one stone, decrease dramatically the deer population. in doing so by offering up up to four antlerless tags per person, they, first, decreased the heard, making all the disease freaks happy,

second, creating extra revenue making the state bugeteers happy, third making all the gunslinging hunters excited beyond belief though unbenounced to them it would be a rather short lived few years until the state reached it's ultimate goal of reducing the number of antlerless deer taken reaching a ratio of bucks to does suitable for a heard that would increase the percentage of 2 1/2 yr old or older deer seen by each hunter.

the more antlerless deer taken, the more antlered deer would slip through the guantlets each season.

I have spent more time in a stand this season before gun season was here than I ever have and I have also seen more mature bucks than I ever have including four different P & Y bucks.

the one I took was the nicest buck I have ever taken,though it wasnt that big, in 31 years of hunting, it was the nicest deer I have ever had an opportunity to take on public land.

I believe that is no coincidence.

though the number of deer I have seen in this intensive harvest area, is significantly down, the buck to doe ratio leaned heavily to the bucks.

I dont mind, but for the kids out there, looking for their first deer, it is kind of a bummer, for that first harvested white tail will light the fire that may burn in them for the rest of their hunting days.

without that first deer, that fire may never be lit, = no revenue from that person in the future.

hasn't that been the big push lately, fewer young hunters and fishers are taking up the sport?

[DaveT]

This is the last I'm going to say about this.

If you are happy with the deer hunting you have now, good for you.

I don't beleive it's fair to let a hunter on one property buy tags for his extended family that doesn't hunt and shoot multiple bucks in one season, so that the 12 year old boy or girl on the neighboring property doesn't get to shoot his or her first buck.

By limiting each hunter to shooting his or her own buck, we will save many thousand bucks every year.

If the DNR made an effort to educate the average weekend warrior to identify and not shoot button bucks (some still would and that's OK), we would save several more thousand bucks every year.

If we pushed the gun season back 2 weeks, most of the breeding would be over, the bucks would not be running as hard and we would save a few thousand more.

Iowa doesn't have antler restrictions and I don't think we need them here, we just need to limit each hunter to one buck and throw in a little common sense.

Once people start seeing multiple bucks, they will become selective on their own.

I don't have anything against shooting immature deer, it just doesn't do anything for me anymore. I'd rather let that young buck walk knowing it might be your son or daughter's first buck, or a future trophy.

If that makes me an one-who-thinks-I-am-silly, so be it.

I've seen firsthand what proper management can do.

[WingDing2]

I cant stand it I have to say something.

When I started hunting in this state 30 years ago our party of 10 would hunt the northwoods for 1 week. We were lucky to SEE a deer in a week.

The same party still hunts, not for a week and we typically fill out.

So whats wrong with hunting in this state? Oh the bucks aren't BIG enough...Give me a break.

[96trigger]

Quote:

As an aside, I would submit that most deer hunters who have harvested or had a close encounter with a Big mature whitetail will never forget it. It's the epitome of deer hunting and some of the most exciting moments you will ever live in your life!! I'd guess it's these encounters that turn most guys onto QDM. Once you experience it you'll be more conscientous about the way you hunt.

1. Birth of my Son,

2. Marrying my H.S. Sweetheart,

3. Shooting a 163" gross buck with my bow last year.

Quote:

So whats wrong with hunting in this state? Oh the bucks aren't BIG enough...Give me a break.

Nothing, I am very happy with where I am hunting, I think others are not as happy, and there are some on here that I do respect and have had success, but they aren't seeing deer. However, we cannot use one bad year to judge the job the DNR is doing, if you look at what its done the last 30 years, you are right, they have done a fantastic job.

If I couldn't hunt around here, and had to travel to hunt, I would probably look at going somewhere that gave me the best chance at shooting a nice buck in a short time frame. My wife would probably much rather have me leave for 1 week during the fall and come back with a big one, than have me hunt as much as I do right now. Unfortuneately, I do not think that place right now, is MN, I do some nice deer every year, but it is from putting in lots of time, not just hunting hard for a week.