Is the DNR taking the right approach to Deer Management in MN?

[realtower]

DeanoB, I agree on the fact that antler restrictions won't work so good because alot of guys will just not register a deer if it is to small. Now where I completly disagree is when you say leave it the same. Look at the surrounding states and ask yourself why are soo many people paying to go shoot huge bucks when we have the potentioal to out do almost all of them. I know that all people will not agree on this subject but say the only ones that want a change are the one that dont see deer is a joke. I see lots of deer and have been managing two farms for a long time. I also hunt alot of state land and can tell you that the buck to doe ratio is so out of wack that if nothing is done to take more does we will always be facing these problems for along time. I read that if you shoot one doe in 5 years you reduce the population by 30. Im sorry but I hate when the weekend worriers come out for there 4 days a year and think they have to take a buck and because the first one they see is a little spike of fork thats what gets shot. If you are not going to show off the horns then take a doe they eat the same. Our group of guys that bowhunt have a deal that if you shoot a buck you must mount it. We have been able to keep our taxidermist busy to so I guess it works. Now for me I would change a few things

1. move the gun season back

2.earn a buck or close the buck season for one to two years

3. If we don't do number two make it a draw tag on bucks

4.take away party hunting.

If these things will change you will have alot of people complain but they will get over it when the see the results. you can not say that QDMA doesn't work or so many land owners would not do it.

[FlatBottom]

I think so. In my opinion, the DNR is trying to make it a stronger more manageable herd, so your children can enjoy hunting deer, not just big bucks. I feel there is too much of a focus on points and size now than enjoying the hunt. Everyone wants to shoot that monster everytime they go out and people are blaming the DNR for not being able to do that everytime. I don't get it. And my last opinion is not every buck you pass up is going to grow into a monster once he hits a mature age. There are to many variables.

[Scoot]

Most of the suggestions mentioned in this thread have been shown in many states and many times to be effective in managing the herd for more large bucks- earn a buck, antler restrictions, drawing for buck tags, moving the season later so it's not in the middle of rut, etc. Those who disagree with the effectiveness of these strategies must be unaware of their past effectiveness or simply don't care about the facts.

In general I agree with 96trigger- the DNR does a pretty good job of satisfying the majority of the people (not an easy thing to do). However, my personal preference is very different from what the DNR says is the majority opinion on the matter. I don't care about shooting "my buck". I'd much rather take a doe here and there and shoot a very large buck occasionally than to just shoot any buck (i.e., a small buck). I agree that ND is doing a much better job of managing their deer herd for large bucks.

That being said, if my opinion is in the minority, as the DNR says it is, I'm pretty well screwed. My opinion is no more important than one vote in many million (as stfcatfish said). My only recourse is to own a good bit of land and manage it the way I want to. I'm highly skeptical that I'll ever be able to do that, but even if I'm never successful, I'll die trying.

[DeanoB]

I guess my opinion is that ND, SD, MT and some of the other states...let's see the entire state's population is less than the Metro area here in MN...maybe something to do with it? Less hunters=less pressure=bigger bucks. Not rocket science. It's kind of like comparing apples to oranges if you ask me. By all means take the time to fill out the survey in the link i provided above, the DNR wants public input on this, and we may see changes soon, so make your voice heard!

[B. Amish]

whatever is proposed, it certainly won't please everyone. I'm all for bigger bucks, but i don't like the idea of moving the season back further. we own a piece of land that doesn't hold deer much longer than the middle of november. if it's cold they start moving toward wintering areas. moving the season back, would severely affect how many deer some people see.

[BLACKJACK]

Lots of good input here!!! People are passionate about their deer hunting but the problem is that hunters have different goals. I'm going to lump deer hunters into three catagories:

1) The "horn porn" guys, all they want is big antlers.

2) The "meat hunters", they just want venison in the freezer.

3) The in-betweeners that like venison, yes they'd like to shoot a big buck but realize a six point or even a doe is a trophy.

I think the vast majority of hunters fit into categories 2 and 3. From that standpoint, I think its unfair for the horn porn guys to try and restrict the rest of the hunters, just because they want a "big" buck. To the majority of hunters, that 6 point is a trophy. What does it say about our deer hunting culture when people are looked down on because "they just shot a doe (or forkhorn)". Plus --- I see lots of big buck pictures in the Outdoor News, local papers, and bait shops, if you're a big buck hunter, go hunt one of them down!!! Don't expect the DNR to legislate a big buck behind every bush!!!

You ask any deer hunter "would you like to shoot bigger bucks", of course they'd say yes. But then if they realize what the restrictions would be, that there might be years where they can't shoot any deer, that would cool their enthusiasm.

Its easy to say 'if you want venison shoot a doe' but that doesn't work in the farmland parts of the state, zone 426 where I hunted had only 15 doe permits!!!

I'm against antler point restictions, they've been tried in other states and have been proven not to work, the deer just get cropped off at that level, plus you end up with too many shot and wasted deer.

Earn a buck is fine, but only in parts of the state where there are a lot of deer.

I'd favor moving the deer season out of the rut but it won't happen, too much tradition.

I'd also favor stopping party hunting for bucks but that would be unenforceable.

Back to the original question, I think the DNR is doing a great job!!! They are surveying hunters and actually listening to them and instituting changes to meet those hunter goals.

[Scoot]

DeanoB- I disagree regarding "it's not rocket science" (kind of). It's absolutely not rocket science, but it's also not even close to as clear and obvious as you suggest it is. MN has a huge deer population and to suggest that the management of that herd isn't a large reason for fewer big bucks than could be is simply wrong. Regardless of the state's population, a state can be managed effectively for bigger bucks. To suggest that this isn't possible is completely contrary to all of the past data showing the effectiveness of many of the management strategies already mentioned in this thread. The effectiveness of these management techniques, of course, has been shown in both low and high population states.

But the three categories of hunters identified by BLACKJACK above this one is spot on (IMO) and points out that lots of people don't care too much about huge bucks (horn porn). That's totally fine by me, it's just different that I would like it to be. Other than voting in the link you provided (which is valuable and important- thanks for providing that), there's not much I can do other than to own my own land and manage it as I see fit.

[smnduck]

Very well said.

[Eric Wettschreck]

Remembering back to the 70's I think the DNR is doing a wonderful job. I remember the days when you were lucky to see a deer, let alone shoot at one. Now, there are many deer.

Minnesota is kinda 3 states in one. Prairie, hardwood forest, and softwood forest. 3 very different areas that have all seen an increase in deer. Once again, hats off to the DNR.

Do I want to shoot a monster buck? Duh, of course I do. More importantly to me, however, is getting a deer in the freezer every year. In this respect is the DNR taking the right approach??? I believe they are.

[96trigger]

EXACTLY, we are not going to get big bucks over night. In the last 30 years, the DNR has made it possible for everyone to go out and see and shoot deer. Which, I think is what the majority of the population wants. If you really want to go shoot a trophy buck, go find one, they are in Minnesota, you just have to find it, if you don't want to put the time in, spend the ching and go to a game farm. I like the fact that it took me years of hard hunting to finally get a deer close to Boone and Crocket, but I am still looking forward to 3B just as much. There are a ton of big deer shot in my part of the state. I have to think the DNR knows what they are doing. We have had great winters, and good management.

[Wanderer]

What do you guys think of this slippery slope?

I hunt in 4 very different habitats each year. SE, West Central, Central, and Northwoods.

VERY significant differences in deer population and ratios. Stress QDM as much as possible but when it comes down to it, if you want a deer, the fewer deer you see, the more valuable they become. Most will shoot SOMETHING if possible. Me included.

You can have patience and be selective when there are many to choose from.

I like the buck lottery idea myself, when populations allow it.

[Jim916]

I think the DNR is doing a good job also. There are big bucks out there, you just need to work for them. I have 2 friends, one last year and one this year, that shot 2 bucks each that scored above 120. The one was a 150 class. They worked hard for these bucks, a lot of scouting and hunting. I know it is not always easy to get to your hunting land to scout.

Also as someone pointed out if we had all of these big bucks the people with money would be leasing the hunting land. We are already having problems of losing hunting land to people leasing it out.

I also hunt 3A which is bucks only and a doe by permit. If you have a permit and shoot a doe, your main tag is no longer valid and you can not even shoot a buck. I used to shoot any buck I saw, but now I am letting them go by. One reason is I am going muzzleloader this year. The reason we do hunt 3A is there are a lot less hunters. 3B you see orange all over!!

Like several people have said you can not please everyone.

[brassman]

I would like to see the season moved back a week or two like others said to reduce the stress on little bucks if that was the only regulation change to be made.

I would also like to see that in intensive harvest area like mine where there are anywhere from 20 to 40 deer per square mile an earn a buck regulation. When I'm in my stand, I am extremeley lucky to see a buck but does are an everyday occurance. I have shot 6 does and one buck in the last 7 years and I am just as happy shooting a doe as I am shooting a buck. This year however I have limited myself to a buck with antlers outside his ears for my own personal enjoyment since I already have meat in the freezer from a doe I shot with my bow 2 weeks ago. If people were to shoot at least one doe to every buck, ( in the intensive harvest areas) it would balance the herd in a very healthy way. Ruts would be much more intense increasing buck activity and most importantly be healthy for all deer because it would take the pressure off of native browse allowing more deer to survive the winter with an abundance of food. My neighbor had to cut his cedars down in his front yard because they were mauled this last year. there are more deer than ever now and something needs to be done to control the levels making people shoot a doe before they shoot a buck would alleviate the numbers and help little bucks make it passed their first year.

[fishermatt]

I think the MN DNR is doing good with the diverse attitudes and traditions to deal with. Most hunters go through their own personal evolution with regard to what they shoot or don't shoot. Younger people want to shoot anything, and we shouldn't take away that right. As "some" people get older or have taken some deer, they may decide to wait and try for a bigger one. Many times that point happens when a hunter gets a Big Buck. Once you get a big buck, it's suddenly easier to pass on the smaller bucks. The average hunter doing the same thing as every other hunter can probably expect to get a few big bucks in a lifetime of deer hunting. If you want to get a big buck "consistently", don't expect the DNR to be able to help you. I think there are more big bucks than most people think. The big ones are out there right now, probably close to where you hunt. But they have a very strong sense of self preservation that you will have to learn to beat if you want to score big with consistency. I myself have definitely NOT learned this yet! Either that or you need a really, really good stand location

[sticknstring]

Quote:

---

Most hunters go through their own personal evolution with regard to what they shoot or don't shoot.

---

Precisely.

That's why my vote's for a later gun season... people can still shoot whatever they're so inclined as they progess through the different stages. The negatives of this change I've heard so far are colder temps and the beginning of yarding in certain herds. I realize tradition and vacation time and so forth all play a role as well... But what are some more reasons why one might be opposed to the change?

[Coach1310]

In response to what might be reasons against a later season...

1. Colder temps....leading to less hunter participation

2. Movement of deer to winter grounds causing more and more ground to be insufficient for hunting....leading to less hunter participation and overcrowding on certain lands

3. Moving it back would make it run concurrent with Wisconsin...I have no idea what the numbers are, but it would possibly decrease the numbers of hunters because with the seasons overlapping hunters would have to choose MN or WI....all 3 of these reasons would also lead to a decrease in revenue from license and tag purchases.

[bigbucks]

I too think the DNR is doing a good job. I would agree there maybe areas where Earn-A-Buck would be a good idea. If you're seeing 5 or more does to every buck your population is out of wack. I would say in our area I probably see no less than one buck for every two adult does, remember fawns don't count as they're essentially half of each gender. To me that doesn't mean the balance is out of wack, it means it's about right.

As stated in a different thread. We shot 11 deer for 16 hunters this weekend. We saw 3-5 does, 2 fawns, & 8-9 bucks. If that's unbalanced it's not because there are too many does. Now I realize were're talking on 250 acres, so the neighboring places could happen to have had nothing but does for that day & a half. In a short season it's tough to get an accurate read of the herd, however during bow season bucks were seen at probably a 2-1 ratio to does.

[sticknstring]

Quote:

---

I would say in our area I probably see no less than one buck for every two adult does

---

That's impressive. I'd venture a guess that our property is safely between 5:1 and 7:1. Ive seen well over a 100 does and fawns... and only 4 bucks. Granted you'll have repeat doe encounters... it's still a pretty big swing. The area is managed so I can only take one doe but a mile south it's intensive where you can take up to 5. I think a few must be creeping across the line...

[Dahitman44]

I am with you.

A buddy of mine is from PA and he can't believe we shoot deer under 8 points -- he said that was against the law where he comes from and I should be here as well.

Maybe a lottery system and a system for young hunters (16 and under) can take anything or you can apply for a young buck permit.

I only shoot an immature buck if we don't have any meat by the second day of gun. Only happened once.

Just my Buck and a Quarter.

Get it?

[eye1000us]

Generally I'd say the DNR is doing a good job of giving the majority of the people what they want while trying to maintain population goals. That said I don't think the DNR would have any trouble creating more trophy opportunities if thats what the people wanted. I think they could however do a better job of educating people on how deer populations and sex ratios effect the overall quality of the deer herd.We will never have the trophy opportunities they have in other states until the mind set of having to shoot a buck , any buck is changed.Doe meat tastes just as good and that fork horn is never gonna be a 10 pointer if you shoot him at a 1 1/2 years old.

I could see a system where your standard deer license comes with one antlerless tag , depending on the area ,additional antlerless tags may be available over the counter or thru a lottery system."Any deer" tags ,which would allow you to harvest either an additional antlerless deer or any buck would be available via a lottery.A "trophy tag" would be available over the counter but would come at a higher price and come with a set of antler restrictions that need to be adhered to.Those under 18 or those over 65 ( pick an age) would be issued special deer licenses that would be free from antlerless/buck restrictions.

I would also be in favor of moving the gun dates back a week. The arguments against this really don't seem to hold much water anymore. Generally our weather is getting warmer and warmer every fall so that shouldnt be too big of an issue.Is an overlap with the WI season a big deal? We have plenty of hunters here already, granted a minority may have to choose which state to hunt but so be it.

Overall its really more of a mind set change then anything.

Theres my $.02

[mattf]

DRH1175 I totally am like you,,,I have passed up 1.5 year hold bucks more than I can count in hopes to see them in future years. I don't think antler restriction is the answer though. I have hunted Iowa, SD, ND and wis. I would love to see Lottery for Bucks and does. Meaning applying for both. Iowa has a GREAT system,,hence why soo many monsters are shot. I would be willing to wait every other year to draw a tag. Also backing the gun season up two weeks would be great. Like you too,,,I don't get too much joy out of shooting a 4-5 point buck,,,not to mention they're the easiest deer in the woods to harvest......

[Dahitman44]

Eye is right, they should move the dates back a week.

The last (and only) nice buck I shot was a nice 9-pointer and it was 16 below at the farm that morning. It has not been nearly that cold since -- ?????

I think you know where I am going with that.

[B. Amish]

i think that moving the dates back won't have that big of an impact as far as less bucks being shot. with the sex ratios so out of whack, bucks are chasing and breeding does for the better part of a month and a half.

besides, the timeing of the rut doesn't conicide with such and such a day in November. it varies a little from year to year.

the only way to guarantee bigger bucks is too limit how many are shot each year.

[bigbucks]

I'd say we have a ratio like that mainly because we've never cared if a deer had horns or not. We also have shot plenty of fawns over the years. We shoot the deer that come by, not just the bucks, so every year we're taking roughly the same amount of deer. Some years we shoot mostly does, the next year it will be mostly bucks. Some years we've shot a lot of fawns. I agree they all eat good, unless they're too "mature". We don't worry about it too much.

Whoever said the yearling buck is the easiest deer in the woods to harvest is exactly right. Every year we pass on multiple small bucks bowhunting & a few fawns. Some times we can not get a doe in bow range all year & we bowhunt a lot. Other years we might get 2 or 3 does with bow. I definitely know, at least in our immediate area, that the gender ratio is NOT out of wack. If we'd have only shot the does we saw this year it would be, but it would be more bucks than does...

[fishermatt]

Bow Hunting would practically be a whole new sport in MN if they moved the Gun season back a week or 2. That would be FABULOUS for bow hunters. There would be a lot more natural daytime deer movement during the rut if it was Bow only til even the second weekend of November. Then Bowhunters would have a way better chance of seeing/bagging mature bucks. Gun season screws that up royally.