Guys Tagging Deer For Their Wives

[BobT]

Some information from our hunting handbook.

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“Taking ” Defined

“Taking” means pursuing, shooting, killing, capturing, trapping, snaring, angling, spearing, or netting wild animals; or placing, setting, drawing, or using a net, trap, or other device to take wild animals. Taking also includes attempting to take wild animals or assisting another person in taking wild animals.

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A person may not take or tag deer without the appropriate license or permit. The term “taking” includes attempting to take deer, and driving, spotting, or otherwise assisting another person in taking deer.

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From the handbook I believe that a person that tags along to "hunt" with a camera would be in violation of the laws regarding assisting in the taking of game. It is not permitted for a non-licensed hunter to assist another hunter "in any way". That includes driving deer or spotting deer, both of which you would be doing just by either being there or taking photos and if party hunting was outlawed, you wouldn't be able to be there even though you were licesnsed because your tag was used. Dad sitting along side his son pointing out a deer he sees in his camera lens is assisting.

You can call me selfish but my hunting memories from my youth have very little to do with whether I actually shot a deer. My memories are of spending time with dad and the added thrill of having a deer brought to camp. I remember trying so hard to hunt like him, stepping in his tracks in the snow, using his tactics, etc but I was so excited when he got one I never once regretted it. Sure it's nice to have your own opportunities and they come eventually but given a choice between forcing the rest of my party to wait for me to get mine or not getting any deer at all because I'm the only one to have chances, I'd choose the latter. It doesn't matter who shoots it. We are hunting as a team and not as individuals sharing a section of the forest.

Bob

[Jameson]

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...It also would seem that to do this we should also consider outlawing it for all types of hunting including waterfowl...

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Party hunting for doves and other migratory birds is already prohibited. Page 53 of 07 regs.

[chucker34]

BobT, what you say is a valid opinion and I would hope no one would call you selfish for what you believe in and enjoy. Just as I would hope no one would view my opinion. Wanting to shoot your own deer isn't selfish or not being a team player either. It's a personal choice. It's choosing to hunt as an individual or along with a relative or friend from a buddy stand or blind if all the valid permit are present. Some people choose to hunt alone. Some choose to hunt as part of a big party.

Those who exlusively bowhunt sometimes get a bad rap as being snobbish or on a high horse if they frown upon deer drives etc. that conflict with their preferred method of hunting, which is more than often not - alone or on an individual basis. But there's a big difference between frowning upon or not liking something like deer drives and actually sticking your nose into someone else's business and telling them shouldn't do deer drives. I have never and will never do the latter. And I believe its next to impossible to reasonably call someone selfish, snobish, etc. for simply holding their own opinion.

[archerystud]

I'm not going to argue on this topic since I've already stated my opinion. Everyone's hunting situation is different.

See you all on some other threads......

[BobT]

I guess I did come across a little strong. I apologize for that.

I just see what seems to be some double standards in some opinions and I don't feel we can have it both ways. If one person doesn't care to party hunt, why even suggest it should be outlawed for those of us that do enjoy the comaradrie and team play? It doesn't hurt the herd and provides opportunities that we can't get alone. If one person prefers to hunt alone, be my guest just don't force me to accept your methods.

We party hunt, we don't drive deer. What I mean is that we each have a stand that we use. Some of us, such as myself, like to do a little still hunting as well while others can be counted on to remain in their stands all day. This works for us and by our method we have enjoyed nearly 20 years of success. After all, if we weren't hunting for the meat, why carry a rifle? Naturally, it isn't just about the meat either.

I agree with your points about driving for I don't agree with that tactic myself. I think it is discusting to see 20 guys driving the grassy sloughs near my home and seeing mega shots being fired at running deer. Personally I think this activity gives hunting a bad rap. But that is totally different from party hunting.

Thanks,

Bob

[lcornice]

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Saw the Star Tribune article on the effort to keep increasing the number of women hunters. Good stuff. It was also interesting that the paper said the number of women purchasing deer hunting licenses has actually been declining but that the DNR says they believe that's because those women never existed. That those licenses were likely cases of men tagging for their wife who never actually hunted.

lcornice, thoughts or input on why that stopped happening. More available tags? More opportunities. Tougher enforcement by the DNR?

I wonder if you are going to see more of this again now that the all-season has been changed to one deer in lottery areas. I hope not, sucks big time for those who abide by the law and hope that by doing so, they'll be able to take 2 or 3 in a few years after the herd recovers.

It's along the lines of the guy who let's the little guy walk in hopes to see him as a big'un in few years only to hear him mowed down a few minutes later. Only in this instance, taking more deer that the law calls for, is illegal and will likely adversely impact the herd, which is what the new bag limits are trying to avoid in the first place.

Here's an idea to solve your woes if you really need another deer, though. Teach your wife or daughter to shoot and have her join you in the field this November. Problem solved.

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Started in 2003 when most of the state went to either-sex over the counter and you could get a $14 bonus tag anywhere. Why buy a $26 license and risk getting caught when you can buy a $14 license and stay legal?

[BobT]

I have given this topic some thought overnight and I find that I have to yield to a part of it. I am embarrassed to admit this but hey, this is about sharing good information and insight.

Although this has happened probably only twice in the last 15 years there have been times when I have to admit that I have abused party hunting ethically or at the very least bordered on abuse. I live here in Osakis but I hunt in northern MN near Mt. Iron. I am usually only able to find time to take four days during the 16-day hunt. On those years when my schedule works out that I am hunting the first weekend and we take a deer, we tag it with my license. This way, after I go home my brother and his son still have both of their tags to use even though it may have been one of them that took that first deer.

Over those years it has been rare that we fill out all of our tags so in reality this practice has made little difference but this discussion we have been having has me rethinking what we do. So I guess with this I can now say that I have found one reason to outlaw party hunting.

I also want to offer or restate my scenarios in support of party hunting.

Dad and son are out hunting and instead of dad taking a doe and using his son's tag, let's consider the opposite. The son doesn't have the doe tag but dad does. The son has opportunity or multiple opportunities for a nice doe and takes one using his dad's tag. Now, you guys that think I'm selfish for suggesting that dad would take a doe on his son's tag can be satisfied. Anyway, due to party hunting the son can still hunt the rest of the season and in fact has opportunity to take a nice buck if it happens along on his tag.

How about the dad that uses his tag in the first 10 minutes of opening morning only this time it was the buck of a lifetime. Would he be selfish for doing so, knowing that his son's season would be over as a result?

By the way, for this scenario let's remember the age I intentionally suggested for the boy was 14. This means he can party hunt and sit in a stand alone. He has already graduated from having dad right at his side coaching so this scenario is not suggesting that dad would take the boy's shot away from him. I wouldn't be that selfish.

Fact is, party hunting actually makes it easier to provide more opportunity for the 14 and 15 year olds to hunt more. They are not allowed to hunt alone...but they are allowed to BE alone with a hunting party.

Bob

[slimngrizzly]

Im sure weve all been guilty of something or another! Im not trying to rip on you or your ways. Im only trying to show how a deer season w/o party hunting is better for the deer herd and makes hunters more appreciative and selective.... in my opinion.

My scenario....

I hunt with a party. We shoot our own deer. We pass on small bucks waiting for a mature buck (this often means waiting years). The deer I pass up go lay down and that group of hunters comes that you talked about, long shots, legs missing, not a care in the world, just a party of killers!! NOT doing anything illegal... but wrong... i think so! The deer dont deserve that! My young son who chose to pass on a small buck in hopes of a future trophy... watched it mowed down by a guy whos already killed 3 bucks, but still needs to "fill the partys tags". This is the dump I am sick of, and party hunting encourages it!

I think good ethical hunters like yourself BobT would have a quality hunting experience either way. I just want to see an end to slob hunting which seems to go hand in hand with party hunting thats how I feel.

[BobT]

I think I understand where you're coming from and I agree under those circumstances. I guess in our party none of us feels the "need" to fill tags. We view party hunting as an increased opportunity for further hunting and better chance for a successful hunt where we measure our success partially by our experience but also by the prize.

Taking pot shots at running deer and risking wounding them is not demonstrative of good hunting ethics. My wife doesn't like deer hunting particularly because of what she has seen around here and I have to keep reminding her that what she is seeing is a small few hunters that don't use some etiquette while hunting and what I and the majority of rest of us do is quite different.

Bob

[chucker34]

lcornice, thanks for the response.

BobT and Slimngizzly, good posts and good stuff. You both have a lot of good points and party hunting the way BobT does it makes for a great experience.

What has turned me off in the past specifically is party hunting doing drives like that Slimngrizzly described, not party hunting in general. Last year, during the close of our second gun season, I watched a group of about a dozen guys swing through a wood patch and alfalfa field shooting at everything in site. Mowing down some yearling bucks and fawns and exploding deer everywhere into the brush. It was similar to the old Civil War battle style where they marched forward in lines trying to hit anything they could in their paths. At one point they were not far from my property line so I got down with my bow and full blaze orange of course and walked over to the line to remind them of the boundaries.

Their last ditch effort to flush anything they could put a bullet in because their season was over shut down my bow season for the rest of the year. The deer went underground and I got a trail cam pic in the wee hours of the morning here and there from there out. They did nothing illegal. They did nothing unethical. They just left an even more sour taste in my mouth for deer drives.

Again, I think the lesson learned here is we have to establish the difference between well-planned out party hunting and carefully executed deer drives and all out shooting matches to mow down anything in your path.

[Eric Wettschreck]

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Again, I think the lesson learned here is we have to establish the difference between well-planned out party hunting and carefully executed deer drives and all out shooting matches to mow down anything in your path.

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Very, very , very well said.

I am part of a group that party hunts. We always have and we always will. We do it legally and ethically. We always have and we always will. Like chucker so very well said. There is a huge difference between forming a mosh line and a good deer drive. Let's not confuse the 2.

[tealitup]

Back when we had to apply for a doe tag in our area - everyone would apply, and at most only one would be drawn.

The person who has not shot a deer in the longest time period then gets first crack at a doe. (Sometimes it could have been 10 years between harvesting a deer). The person who got the tag just agreed - after all its not all about the hunt.

[WaitForIt]

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Finally, party hunting to me often = deer drives, which I have a great disdain for. Again, I can't see any reason to ban them and there's nothing legally or ethically wrong with them in my books, I just don't like hunting that way. I'm not saying its not as sporting as sitting and waiting in a treestand or blind. I'm just saying I don't like the feel of it or the safety concerns involved. Perhaps much of this is because I bowhunt pretty much exclusively now. But I think I'd feel that way even if I exclusively gun hunted.

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Well said - I feel exactly the same way.. you just said it much more eloquently. Last year, rifle hunting opener on public land we had a group of guys come through DRIVING THE WOODS at 9am? You can guess how great the hunting was the rest of the weekend. Fortunately for those good 'ole boys, they filled several tags including 2 spike bucks. Ugh.

If I could make two changes to our state's hunting regs, they would be:

1) No party hunting

2) Earn-a-buck OR antler restrictions (3-pts a side)

Yeah, I'm one of those 'snobby' bowhunters. Thing is though, I want what everyone wants: A balanced, healthy deer herd with multiple age classes of bucks and does. I just don't think that others are willing to take the steps to do it (let them walk, antler restrictions, shoot does, etc).

Wow.. we've gotten off subject a little

[BobT]

You guys keep saying you would prefer no party hunting but your descriptions of what you're apposed to sound more like you would prefer no drive hunting. There is a difference!

Bob

[chucker34]

BobT is right on. I failed to make that difference known initially but later did. It's the drive hunting I don't care for. The main reason is the pressure if often so intense that it might as well be the last ditch effort for you and everyone on surrounding properties. When guys do drives nearby our land, its usually signals and causes the end of hunting for the year. The deer who are already spooked from stand hunting pressure go completely underground after that. But it is they guys' own land or land they have permission to hunt on, so what can you do?

[DuluthGuy]

Just because you do not "Drive Hunt" doen't mean it is bad. I have found it is the HUNTERS! not the laws that are bad.

To all the "Heart on their sleeves" go hug a tree - if you need to slam all hunters in general.

I party/solo hunt - I am driving deer to my father and odds are that the people on the stand get the shot.

I could go on & on but this thread is getting stupid.

B2

P.S. I shoot a 8 pt. almost every year; I also hunt on my private land.

[BLACKJACK]

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If I could make two changes to our state's hunting regs, they would be:

1) No party hunting

2) Earn-a-buck OR antler restrictions (3-pts a side)

Yeah, I'm one of those 'snobby' bowhunters.

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Waitforit,

I'm a bowhunter and I don't want to be lumped into the same snob category as you. You sound like a snob. "no drive hunting" because it hurts your hunting. "lets institute antler restrictions and earn a buck because I, the great snob, want to hunt only big bucks". Don't lump all bowhunters in your category. I've shot a lot of does and small bucks with my bow and will continue to do so as long as it gives me an adrenelin rush.

You make all bowhunters sound bad.

[chucker34]

"Just because you do not "Drive Hunt" doen't mean it is bad. I have found it is the HUNTERS! not the laws that are bad.

To all the "Heart on their sleeves" go hug a tree - if you need to slam all hunters in general."

Never said it was bad and wasn't slamming other hunters for doing it. In fact, I said I did think it should be allowed. Just that its not my cup of tea. If me preferring to stand hunt makes me a snob, then so be it. As the late Ricky Nelson said, "you can't please everyone so you've got to please yourself."

BTW, I will be hugging a tree Saturday morning - at about 20 feet above the Earth.

[BobT]

[chucker34]

lol. BTW, blackjack, I'm going to try and take the first respectable deer (i.e., not a fawn) that comes by my stand this year. So maybe my strategy/philosophy helps restore some of the humbleness of bowhunters. lol.

[Surface Tension]

Enforce the laws we have now instead of making new laws.

If a guys shoots a deer for someone with a tag and that guy is home watching TV, its illegal. Whats going to stop that same guy from shooting deer for a party member that is hunting if you make it illegal?

If I want my son to shoot his deer and my deer thats perfectly legal but wrong in some eyes. If I have 5 tags and shoot 5 deer and donate 4 deer to a food shelf thats OK? I can't shot a deer for a party member but I can donate it to a stranger. Wheres the logic?

Heres another scenario. A group of 5 guys take two weeks to spend deer season at the shack. 4 guys get their deer opening weekend. The 5th guy continues to hunt and the other 4 turn into nature photographers. I Don't Think So.

Lets get back to the topic about using tags from someone absent from the woods. Its illegal, enforce that law, problem fixed.

[Hammer Handle]

My deer season is usually only two days long. Last year, it was longer.

We hunt on our own land. If you get a deer, you still hunt and can take another deer (unless we are doing extremely well, then it is large bucks only for you). However, you still hunt but now your main goal is to help someone else in the party get a deer.

We have 4 people in our party under 20 years old (out of 11 hunters). We have two members over 70. All are family. After the first morning, if you haven't shot at a deer...you get a choice of spots. If you shot but missed, you get second choice. If you got a deer, you choose last. Yes, you could build a deer stand for yourself...but could "lose" the spot and end up sitting on the ground if you got a deer.

Also, people with deer are responsible to make the drives for the other hunters. So, you shoot a deer the first morning, you will do a LOT of walking some years....

This encourages more selective hunting. This also gives everyone a chance at a deer. A successful year is not by all the deer we got, but who had a chance at a deer and the excitement.

We make drives every year that are well organized. Making a drive does not ruin the hunt. We drive a piece of woods, and can still post on it the same night...and we still get deer. If you have the right habitat, they will come back. Typically, half our deer are shot on drives.

More than two days to hunt improves selective hunting. Only two days, and you kill the first deer you see. I like the way it was last year.

The deer are plentiful and party hunting should stay in place. But, the person in the party has to be hunting and nearby.

Our best family pictures have deer hanging in the background. Both my parents, brothers, nieces, nephews, all hunt. It is a familiy tradition more than anything else. If you don't hunt, you are not welcome at the "hunting shack" unless you want to cook and babysit kids.

And yes, we shoot at running deer. Running deer can be dropped over 90% of the time if you know how to hit them. You don't just shoot at the deer either, you only take a shot if it is a killing shot. Unsure, you don't shoot. We have very very few "wounded deer" issues. And, if we do...we have expert trackers and great neighbors who will find the deer.

Our family has hunted the same land for nearly 100 years, and we know the land extremely well. We sometimes know where a deer is going before he does!

Thanks to a great and lucky family...we have 100's of acres of woods and undeveloped lakeshore that will remain that way for many many years.

[UdeLakeTom]

It seems to me that most every body agrees, that if the person isn't out hunting, you cannot fill his licence, but if you are in a group and you have yours, why not help the other person get thiers as long as they agree to it and are out in the field.

[UMDSportsman]

We hunt pretty much the same way as Hammer Handle for the rifle season, on private land. Same thing, do a drive, can still shoot deer that nite in the same spot. As far as the shooting deer and choosing stands and walking on the drives, same for us, except for me. I have no problem walking on any of the drives we make, but i am the monkey of the group and there are places where we should have stands, but don't yet. that is usually my calling, find a tree and climb it . ya i know i should wear a harness etc, but i have been climbing trees since i was a little kid, and i am still young an flexible enough to do it. i always use a rope for the gun, and i know my personal limits and tree sizes.

[slimngrizzly]

The argument here seems to be about whats legal and whats not.... and everyone claims to hunt "the right way" and its those "unethical other hunters" that make the sloppy deer drives and the rest of us good ones "look bad"!?!

Yes... the problem is people that dont play by the rules. But, to me, MN deer hunting regulations make it it easy for slob hunting to go on. Party-hunting, hunting the rut, not shooting does w/doe permits, not having any buck restrictions.... all of it is set up for simply killing deer! The state sets up legal ways for sloppy hunters to do a deer drives and mow down anything in their path, it allows people to shoot now and identify later, because as long as there is hunters in the group with tags, it doesnt matter what it is! None of this should even be possible! But our laws allow it, and therefore, in a way, promote it! It makes me sick!

This state manages strictly for quanity, NOTHING for quality! WHY When it could so effectively be managed for both???