Fox gun

[fishermann222]

I need some advice. I currently have a 22 and a .223 that I use for fox. My problem is with the 22 I can not get enough range to kill them with one shot, and with the .223 it hits them and blows a hole so big out the backside that the hide is relatively useless. I live in a remote part of alaska where fox are SO plentiful a guy can get 100 of them in a hutnign season NO problem. I want to purchase a good gun that will not blow them to bits, or download my .223. Anyone have any ideas? a .17 does not work up here because the wind blows from 20-40 every day. I live near the bearing sea so it always blows.

ANy suggestions?

[cyberamish]

Have you tried FMJ(full metal lacket) rounds in your .223? I would think they would get the job done and leave a small exit hole.

[fishermann222]

yes, I am currently using FMJ's and I think the bullet is moving so fast it spins when it hits the animal and comes out leaving a hell of a hole. I have shot over 150 fox with it using all different kinds of amuntiion. I find myself seweing and sewing and sewing after I skin and flesh each animal. I just can not get it to work. Mabye it is because we shoot them when they are running instead of still, (they never sit still up here, the eskimo's chase them with snowmobiles too often).

[tealitup]

I have never shot one, but have you seen the new Ruger .204?

I have read good things about the gun, but do not know first hand.

[FlyingV]

How about a .17 Remington? Guys in the Dakotas use them alot and the wind blows there too. Go to PredatorMastersdotCom and see what they have to say.

[hunt4food]

I think you are right. If you are constantly fighting the wind, the .17HMR is not a good choice. I bought one and took it to SD on a prairie dog shoot last summer and a 10 mph wind would drift the small bullet 5 or more inches in 150 yards. I think I would look at the .204 Ruger as someone above mentioned. Only problem is the ammo costs are a little high and a lot higher than .223. Boy. I sure wish I could easily bag 100 fox a season! Sounds like a good time except the miserable cold weather you can have up there! Good luck!

[rubber duck]

How about a .22 Hornet?

[fishermann222]

a .22 hornet might work for close ranges. I hunt with a guy who uses a 22 mag and it is GREAT up to 100 yards but not good after that. Is it possible to download my .223 to about 1800 fps? if I do that do you think it would stop the problem? would a heavier bullet go through better and not turn? You guys are great offereing your ideas. I really appreciate it. Until .204 bullets become really common I am not going to purchase one. Where I live I would have to pay haz mat fees to get bullets out here. I am going to have to look into that a little bit though. What grain bullets are available for it?

[Cooter]

Just curious what would happen if a guy stepped up to a light deer cartridge such as a .25-06 or 7mm-08 for example and used a well built bullet like a partition or fail safe. Would buck the wind good and you'd think not expand much on a fox? Cost would be a concern, but...?

[fishermann222]

Cooter,

I have a friend up here who is going to try exactly that for next season. He is looking at buying a .243 I think. Have you tried this? I don't mind the cost, I sell the furs and it is more of a sport and hobby than trying to make money at it. With gas prices for a snowmobile being 4.50 a gallon making money is pretty tough.

I am interested to see if anyone on here has tried it.

[Jackpine Rob]

I've been shooting a .17 Rem (as opposed to the new HMR) for a while now, and have been more than pleased with its performance in even the most brutal of conditions. While definitely NOT Alaska, the frozen tundra of the Dakotas in the winter can be downright unpleasant, in terms of wind and cold. Unless you're talking gale force winds, I think the bad rap given the .17 Rem for wind drift is a bunch of malarkey, and probably given to you by folks who don't shoot one.

I've taken coyotes out to 300 yards with one runner in the last ten or so years. Fox go down and don't get up. We call performance like that "bang-flop". Its pretty freakin' impressive, given the tiny little bullet.

If you're looking for a flat-shooting, wind-bucking cartridge that kills those critters with little fur damage, welcome to my world. After going through 22-250, .223, 22 mag, I settled on the .17 Rem. My partner howled with disgust, proclaimed it was prone to wind drift problems and less than adequate for coyotes. He had never shot one, and relied on magazine articles and ballistics tables.

10 years later I'm still shooting the same gun. He's been through several, and is still not happy.

[irvingdog]

Wind drifts on .17 bullets is all relative. Te bullet is smoking fast, and not in the air for as long as many other rounds. This reduces it's tendancy to wind drift. All bullets drift. Lead in the air is like a vehicle on the ice. They all slide around..........

[shae1986]

I use a .223 for fox right now and I reload my own shells to create a good fox load. High speeds with little tare, i also create one that will roll them for game such as beaver.

[hunt4food]

I guess I should have stepped up to the .17 Remington because I can say with confidence since I have shot 600+ rounds out of my .17HMR, that the wind did in fact drift that little pill much more than my .223 or my partners 22-250. I am willing to accept it in my situation because I can almost always follow up with a second shot at Prairie Dogs and the ammo is only about $80.00 for 500rds on sale. If I was targeting an animal where there was even a marginal chance at a second shot, I would definitely not go the the gun safe and reach for my .17HMR. That's no malarky! yes. I know it's fast, but it's still 1,000 fps. less than my .223. I shoot 45 gr. JHP out of my .223. You should give that a try once. It just might be the right combination. It turns Praire Dogs into red mist, but it may break up and not do too much damage on the exit on a larger animal. I don't know because I have not shot anything other than P. dogs with it.

[tjm]

Try black hills 52grain hollow points.They tend to leave a couple tiny holes in a 4 inch area.Only had a couple over the years that put big holes those came from rib shot exiting front shoulder on the same side

rem 17cal a bad rap GRRRRRR.I have owned 2 since they 1st came out.Wore out both barrels looking to get another 1 this summer.My new 204 wont match the 17 rem thats for sure.Waste of money should have just replaced my 17

Once you shoot the 17 a few times in the wind you'll be able to adjust like any other cal.Speed eliminates more drifting then what the critics say.

If your only going to shoot at fox and very few yotes this is 1 cal you need to have.Cant say i have had more then a handful of fox that had a hole bigger then a golfball most of the holes you cant even find a exit

[fishermann222]

Thanks for the info guys, you have been a great help. I think I am going to look into buying a .17 remington this summer. I dont have to worry about shooting anyhting larger than a red fox. Only varmints we have in my area are red and arctic fox.

I guess I will have to retire the old .223 for a while. One of you mentioned hollow points. blows a huge hole in them. Remember fox are not nearly the size of a coyote. I think hte .223 and 22-250 would be perfect coyote guns, but just not good on fox.

[Neiko]

Shae, I am not sure where you are from but in MN it is illegal to shoot beaver. You can only trap them here.

[FlyingV]

Fishermann222, there are not many new guns to choose from in .17 Rem anymore. CZ and Remington are the only ones I know of. And even fewer factory loads available. You might want to check PredatorMasters.com for nationwide opinions. Lots of guys from all over have much to say. Check out the Classifieds there too. Someone has an almost new CZ in the box with extras for about $500 shipped you your FFL of choice.

[Cooter]

I just don't think trading the .223 for the .17 is gonna help you out. The two rounds are similar enough that you probably will still have some pelt damage with either as well as wind drift problems. I personally wouldn't buy the .17 in place of the .223 unless you are certain pelt damage will be less.

[Jackpine Rob]

Having shot critters with both, I can personally attest to lesser pelt damage (as a whole) with the .17 Rem. On fox-sized animals, there is simply no comparison. Just on paper, you are looking at a bullet roughly twice as large for the .223, and its going slower.

Now there are some "hot" .223 loads using polymer-tipped bullets that may (and I stress may) get you somewhere near the FPS of the .17, but in order to reach that level of performance you risk the dreaded splash effect. What that means in practical terms is a bullet splashing on impact, and never penetrating the animal. If you want to see some spectacular entry wounds, I have a few stories to tell....

The .223 was designed for a specific purpose having nothing to do with predators and fur damage. Subsequent loads and handloading have really made that caliber stand up and do tricks, but the underlying facts of why the caliber was designed in the first place are still there.

The .17 started as a wildcat designed off the .222 Magnum cartridge (much the same as the .204 Ruger), and was designed specifically with long-range, flat-shooting performance on small targets in mind. The bullet exits the bore in the neighborhood of 4000 fps, and the need to hold over or under out to 300 yards is not an issue.

In competent hands, the .17 is one heck of a specialty fur hunter's tool. As mentioned by another poster, there are precious few factory loads available, but to be honest I have had my best luck with the standard Remington loads topped with the 25 gr. Hornady hp. Out of my gun (a Remington M7) they group extremely well, and seem to get the job done. Other .17 shooters absolutely detest that load, and have cooked up all manner of loadings - there is plenty of reloading data out there.

[Fisher Dave]

I can give you an option if you reload at all.. I came across this by accident.

A few years back I was reloading some rounds for my .308 for target, and hunting purposes.. When pouring my bullets I accidently loaded my lead pot with pure linotype(very hard)...

Needless to say, when i shot a decent size doe.. It completely passed through the body and broke 2 ribs on the way... the bullet never expanded. The exit wound was as clean as the entrance wound.. with the exception of a little blood.

If you can pour some rock-hard bullets, they might hold together.

[Cooter]

Sounds like its gonna be tough to reduce pelt damage and wind drift at the same time.

[Muddog]

Out to 150 yard the .22 Hornet would work nice.

Or you could find some one the load your .223 down to a slower speed.

[shae1986]

there are some loads for the .223 that really should reduce pelt damage

[wishiniwerefishin]

I also have been using my Savage .17 HMR up here in North Dakota on coyotes and fox all winter, and have not had a problem with drift or knockdown power. Rolled my most recent yote with a 20mph wind, if you shoot the gun enough you will know what its gonna do, just like any other gun.