APR's good for hunter recruitment but not for retention?

[96trigger]

I have never received a zone 3 deer survey either. If I get one this year, I will most definitely fill it out. What I did do, was attend the informational meetings the DNR put on and a round table discussion where everyone's opinions were voiced. It was pretty evenly split 50:50, which resulted in the decision to give it a 3 year trial. I have not heard anyone that was for it 3 years ago, switch their opinion and become against it. I have heard numerous people that were against it 3 years ago, change there opinion and are now for it. That is why I think it will stay in zone 3. That is why I think it will spread to areas in that state that have a healthy population (note: I said healthy population, managed and intensive areas only). I'm not talking about the 10 people I hunt with, I'm talking about 100's of people that I know and talk to frequently through email, facebook, and different organizations etc... that are now very in favor of APR. Its not hard data, its soft data, I don't need hard numbers to tell me that more people are in favor of APR than there was 4 years ago. I am very familiar with statistics, I know data can be skewed to read however I want it to read.

[tfran123]

The stronger do the breeding, that's the way it works in a balanced herd - overall that is better. Now any 1.5 year old could be superior genetically but you don't know that till years down the road . . it's a dump shoot.

It's not the buck age structure that I get hung up on it's the buck to doe ratio. On many public lands with no APR it's like 6:1 does to bucks, that makes for pretty difficult hunting. Get it closer to 1:1 and you'll see more bucks as they need to go more than 100 yards to find another doe to chase. That's a fact.

[tfran123]

quote]

I disagree. There are plenty of these larger bucks around, you just have to go out and find them. They are not lurking behind every tree.

[slimngrizzly]

Also with a balanced buck:doe ratio there will be fewer does and fawns bred late. Therefore their fawns will be born on time and go into their first winter more fully developed. A healthy herd is a live one!

[B. Amish]

The stronger do the breeding, that's the way it works in a balanced herd - overall that is better.

why is that better?

[Musky Buck]

Bingo slim. Bingo tfran. Some just like in school don't like to be told what they can or can't do even if it's fair across the board. Tired of grown men that pile up yearling bucks and buck fawns do to being a game hog of sorts, if you completely hunt within the law disregard that. If you are a tag finder or heck we butcher our own just throw it in the pile then that's for you. Let some kid maybe have the first deer hunting thrill of their lifetime.

[slimngrizzly]

I disagree. There are plenty of these larger bucks around, you just have to go out and find them. They are not lurking behind every tree.

Really? Like how many is plenty?

Why cant they be behind every tree? Part of what I used to love about duck hunting was sitting in AWWW watching thousands of ducks working the sky. I didnt need to kill them. I just enjoyed their presence! Id LOVE to witness a handful of 3 1/2 year old bucks and older standing together. I cant speak for where you are, but in my part of MN its not happening. Were lucky for (1) 3 1/2 year old buck ( or older) to exsist per 3 or 4 square miles.... thats not "plenty" in my book.

"Putting in effort" and "hunting hard" wont get you something that isn't there. Ive learned putting effort into helping young deer survive is equally or more beneficial, and rewarding, than exausting yourself trying to kill the big ones sometimes.

[fr0sty]

Does get bred during their first estrus cycle. That causes most fawns to be born at the proper time and all at once. When all fawns drop around the same time, predators kill less. They are also born earlier in the spring and have a longer time to grow before winter.

When does are not bred at the same time because of a lack of males, they keep cycling. That is stressful for the existing bucks, since they have to keep up the higher activity level of searching for and breeding does instead of eating and building back up their fat reserves. It can cause a higher mortality for those bucks.

why is that better?

[slimngrizzly]

Well.... Dave, Trigger, tfran, Musky, truth, surewood, Amish, whomever else.... handshake, handshake, handshake, handshake, handshake...

Its beer-thirty for this guy! Ill be back to mingle tomorrow. Be nice!

[Getanet]

Does get bred during their first estrus cycle. That causes most fawns to be born at the proper time and all at once. When all fawns drop around the same time, predators kill less. They are also born earlier in the spring and have a longer time to grow before winter.

When does are not bred at the same time because of a lack of males, they keep cycling. That is stressful for the existing bucks, since they have to keep up the higher activity level of searching for and breeding does instead of eating and building back up their fat reserves. It can cause a higher mortality for those bucks.

Ok, but I'm not sure what this has to do with the age of the buck. I don't think too many folks for or against APRs are saying there are too few bucks.

[Big Dave2]

Hunters go through a maturity process over time, and after taking a number of deer one tends to want to raise the bar, same in most sports, fishing included. How many forkers does one need to put down before they yern for something a bit bigger. This isn't the pioneer days and most of us will make it through the year without venison if we fail to take a deer.

Why is bigger better? When I go fishing I throw back the largest ones and keep as many of the eater size as I need for a meal for my family.

I grow tomato and pepper plants each year for eating, I have no desire for larger tomatoes and peppers.

I don't necessarily understand this desire for progression but if there needs to be progression why can't we realize that not everyone is at the same point in the progression? Just because YOU have experienced this progression does not mean that I will ever experience it or that I will experience it at the same time as you. You assume every kid starts hunting and takes many deer before they are 18. How about those who do not start until later in life?

[nonteepical]

Do we not respect deer and hunting as much as others?

We respect it more, thats the whole truth of it.

[Getanet]

I'm sure you think you do.

[Big Dave2]

Read enough and you'll see APR's are really catching on, why? People like seeing bigger deer and that's what it's about for many folks.

Food Stamps are really catching on too, so is meth and baggy pants. Doesn't make any of it right.

[tfran123]

I don't know you so it's tough for me to speculate on how you are wired. Hard to paint these things with a broad brush so not everything is as simple as we'd like it to be. But to me here are the keys . . .

-It's very unhealthy to take 70% plus of the 1.5 year old bucks annually, doesn't do much for our herd overall.

-Most people (not all) enjoy the possible thrill of taking a trophy, that's hard w/o APR's on many tracts.

-I don't have a large antler desire as much as I have a mature animal desire. Harvest one of those (and my last one was a modest racked 8 pt that dressed at 220#) - it's not always the horns.

-When you get a doe permit perhaps get your venison then, why would one need to continually stack up little bucks.

-I'm happy that you like small vegtables, little to do with this subject however.

[Big Dave2]

Really? Like how many is plenty?

Why cant they be behind every tree? Part of what I used to love about duck hunting was sitting in AWWW watching thousands of ducks working the sky. I didnt need to kill them. I just enjoyed their presence! Id LOVE to witness a handful of 3 1/2 year old bucks and older standing together. I cant speak for where you are, but in my part of MN its not happening. Were lucky for (1) 3 1/2 year old buck ( or older) to exsist per 3 or 4 square miles.... thats not "plenty" in my book.

"Putting in effort" and "hunting hard" wont get you something that isn't there. Ive learned putting effort into helping young deer survive is equally or more beneficial, and rewarding, than exausting yourself trying to kill the big ones sometimes.

So in order for you to consider there are "plenty" of large antlered deer around there would have to be enough for EVERYONE who hunts to be able to shoot one every year?

[Big Dave2]

I don't know you so it's tough for me to speculate on how you are wired. Hard to paint these things with a broad brush so not everything is as simple as we'd like it to be. But to me here are the keys . . .

-It's very unhealthy to take 70% plus of the 1.5 year old bucks annually, doesn't do much for our herd overall.

I have been arguing this subject every year for several years and I have yet to see any proof of this statement.

-Most people (not all) enjoy the possible thrill of taking a trophy, that's hard w/o APR's on many tracts.

Anything worth doing is hard. What thrill will it be when ALL of the deer are "trophies"?

-I don't have a large antler desire as much as I have a mature animal desire. Harvest one of those (and my last one was a modest racked 8 pt that dressed at 220#) - it's not always the horns.

So when you buy a steak at the grocery store do you ask the butcher for the t-bone that came out of the oldest cow?

-When you get a doe permit perhaps get your venison then, why would one need to continually stack up little bucks.

If I don't get a doe permit or see a doe, then what? Not that long ago there was no such thing as a doe permit in my area.

-I'm happy that you like small vegtables, little to do with this subject however.

[countyline]

So if you had a deer population and the ratio was say, 2-1. How ever the buck sample in the herd was mainly comprised of 1.5 year old's. Would that make the herd weaker because smaller deer were breeding. The ratio is lower so the breeding would be done fast and furious, just by small bucks. I'm sure they would fight each other to. You would think deer would be like people. Younger ones have healthier babies. Allowing any doe over 3.5 to have a fawn might not be the best for the herd.

With the dates of the MN gun deer season. Most deer breed in zone three would be breed by smaller deer anyway. Since the average breed date in MN is the 12th of Nov. All the bigger ones would be shot off. Now in the rest of the state the does would be breed by bigger bucks since all the smaller deer get shot. So I guess outside of zone 3 would have stronger born fawns.

[Getanet]

I don't know you so it's tough for me to speculate on how you are wired. Hard to paint these things with a broad brush so not everything is as simple as we'd like it to be. But to me here are the keys . . .

-It's very unhealthy to take 70% plus of the 1.5 year old bucks annually, doesn't do much for our herd overall.

-Most people (not all) enjoy the possible thrill of taking a trophy, that's hard w/o APR's on many tracts.

-I don't have a large antler desire as much as I have a mature animal desire. Harvest one of those (and my last one was a modest racked 8 pt that dressed at 220#) - it's not always the horns.

-When you get a doe permit perhaps get your venison then, why would one need to continually stack up little bucks.

-I'm happy that you like small vegtables, little to do with this subject however.

Tfran, you seem pretty reasonable about this, but I have to disagree with your first bullet. A) can you find any source other than a QDMA study that claims a percent of yearling buck harvest in MN? Even if you're percentage is accurate, it's not X% of all bucks as you state. It's only a percentage of the bucks that get shot - huge difference there. If deer hunters were shooting 70% of all bucks we would have a serious population problem on our hands and we'd probably have to shut hunting season down for many years to let the population recover.

[skee0025]

The stronger do the breeding, that's the way it works in a balanced herd - overall that is better. Now any 1.5 year old could be superior genetically but you don't know that till years down the road . . it's a dump shoot.

Genetics wont improve with time. An "inferior" 1.5 year old will still be "inferior" at 4.5 years. One thing that APR's does is insure that the Inferior will not be culled from the herd. I let all of the smaller deer I see pass, buck or doe, it doesnt matter. Age doesnt ensure a bucks rack will reach 4 points a side. I've taken several large Bucks that only had 6 points. The first thing that should have been tried was to move the hunt out of the rut IMO. That seems to work well in surrounding states. I'm lucky enough to hunt in Wisconsin where it seems everyone is out for the big buck and passes on shooting the Does. Their loss, a mature deer is a mature deer, more opportunities for me.

[Bear55]

MN should be a bow only state, give everyone 3 tags and let them shoot whatever they want. All our problems will be solved.

[Getanet]

Would cross bows be allowed?

[nonteepical]

we have a million deer(doubt it). IF we had a doe to buck ratio of 2:1(highly unlikley in a free ranging deer herd) that would give us 666,000 does and 333,000 bucks that make up the population, last year minnesota harvested about 130,000 bucks (memory), meaning we turn over our buck population roughly every 3 years and that is IF we had a 2:1 ratio, at best minnesota is 3 does to 1 buck. not very many bucks get old and the obvious is the overwhelming majority getting shot are yearlings.

[hockeybc69]

No, last year the total buck harvest in MN was 75,000 adult bucks and 17,000 fawn bucks.

[nonteepical]

But heck, let's say it's 80% is the true figure. That's only bucks harvested, not how many remain in the herd. Hunter success ranges around 33% for both bucks and does.

so if the population remains stable that means every 3 years is the turnover rate by YOUR numbers confirming we have a young population of deer.