APR's good for hunter recruitment but not for retention?

[hockeybc69]

And the comedy continues... LOLLLL

[zepman]

Nevermind the horns....the LAND should be the main issue here.

If you hunt private property and it's not yours...you should be very nervous right now...

If you don't believe me, just wait and see....

[nonteepical]

I'm not sure i believe you, so just tell us.

[james_walleye]

In the late 60's, I shot a #107 doe with the bow and got a trophy. I was taught than that all deer are trophies. I'm happy just to shoot any deer. I always save my horns and I've got many spikes. Remember, when you limit what a hunter can shoot, it could be his last hunt and you kept him from the treasured memory of taking a deer. At least 3 or 4 times through the years I've shot spikes and forks that I thought were does. Luckily we had buck tags.

That is something I wouldn't admit on a hunting forum. APRs or not you have to identify your Target.

[surewood]

BD2, nobody has to hunt for food anymore. Really? nobody cares about the age of pheasants and does. Kinda hard to judge a pheasants and does age. You can think I'm selfish all you want. I've killed some nice bucks over the years without apr and will continue to. Minnesota has much more potential to offer it's residents. As a group right now we won't reach it without change. I'm not worried about myself I do just fine. Somehow I get the feeling you're the kinda guy that would say left if I said right just to argue. All these things are just one person (my) opinion. So don't worry, be happy we all can have an opinion.

[muskiemanAD]

We had a good conversation over Thanksgiving. There are 3 new young hunters to our group 2 have shot nice bucks while the the other missed one last year. They are all for APR, they would much rather have a chance to kill a nice buck and eat tag soup or shoot a doe then smoke some spike buck. All of their friends have this same mentality too. It seems that those against APR are the old timers that like to whack and stack the deer and use everyone else's tag. I think trigger made a comment about this too with the kids in his class. They all want to shoot nice bucks its the old timers that don't want to change and say the kids won't hunt if they can't spill blood every year....

[slimngrizzly]

Slim I didn't mean old deer created a healthy herd. I mean older age structure in addition to a healthy herd.

I know exactly what you mean Surewood. I would say my views/goals reflect yours in this topic. In all seriousness though, I would LOVE it if deer couldn't be taken until 4 1/2! Bucks, doe's, all of them.... why not let them live to show their potential!?!? I know its not going to happen and it would be impossible to age does on the hoof... Its rediculous to even think about. But I too would love to see deer get older somehow.

We have an extremely low percentage of old animals, and an extremely high percentage of young animals! The young survivors fill the gaps of such a high mortality rate! The high number of 1 1/2 year olds killed are constantly replaced by fawns... then to be killed the next year. And naturally a few slip through the cracks and make it to an older age......... This all "works", our numbers are there, the sex ratio is there (to start with), by why would would anyone support a system that restricts an animals ability to mature??? I just dont get it.

If you were to look at a graph of the age structure of our deer herd in populated MN, i'd be willing to bet that chart would look almost identical to that of a 3RD WORLD COUNTRY! Thats mananagement!? Not in my eyes...

[PurpleFloyd]

Funny you mention kids, many of those kids are WAY more into "horn porn" than many of us. TV, hunting video games (deer hunter, big game hunter), special seasons, instant gratification...etc... what do you think the majority of them are going to want after shooting a few deer and some small bucks? Just something to think about while all of you talk about how its all about the kids. Love or hate APR, the future generations will change the way we hunt, for good or bad. One thing for sure, it will change.

I have seen first hand (high school) kids that shoot small bucks get teased and ridiculed (it's friendly ridicule, but there is always a hint of sincerity to it). I always put a stop to it, and let the kid getting teased know that it is just fine if they are happy with it and its legal, they should not care what anybody else thinks.

A group that hunts in a neighboring area to me that has relatives in it are big time into the whole porn horn thing to the extent that one of the young boys who was probably in 8th grade last year shot an 8 point buck that wasn't big enough for the standards of some in the group and they actually yelled at him for shooting a buck that wasn't big enough and ripped him up one side and down the other. Call me crazy but I will let a kid choose what he wants to do and congratulate him for whatever it is rather than belittle him for not meeting my standards.

It is sad to see what hunting is coming to these days and pray that I am dead and in the ground when they start to tell us we can't shoot a rooster until it has a 24 inch tail feather.They all taste the same when they come out of the frying pan. Sometimes the smaller ones taste better.

As to the whole let the small ones walk, that might work in some high density areas but in cornfield county and especially if you don't party hunt, you may see only one deer in range the whole gun season. And with the limited number of doe tags the DNR hands out ( we had 0 tags for 9 adult hunters in our party) how are we supposed to let a buck pass? And who has the justification to tell me to if I don't want to anyway?

[PurpleFloyd]

There is absolutely no question that a better ratio of mature bucks makes for a "healthier" herd, and I'm not talking about sickness and disease, though that is a possibility as well. I'm talking about a better balance, a better buck:doe ratio. Less breeding by immature bucks. A more intense rut. Better age structure. Anybody who thinks shooting 80% immature bucks is a good thing and we should just leave well enough alone - you want to talk about selfish....

[slimngrizzly]

If we kill them all at 1 1/2 or younger.... what does genetics matter anyway. They're all gonna be brown with a little bit of meat on them, theres no changing that.

[Getanet]

We don't kill them all, not even close. Can we at least attempt to deal in facts? For starters, the original figure was 65% yearling bucks, which was highly dubious to begin with and only came from the QDMA's research, not the DNRs. But like anything, if you say it enough, it becomes gospel. Now it's grown to 80%.

But heck, let's say it's 80% is the true figure. That's only bucks harvested, not how many remain in the herd. Hunter success ranges around 33% for both bucks and does.

If I go to an apple orchard and pick a basket of apples, and 80% of them are green apples - you can't say I removed 80% of all the green apples from the orchard.

[muskiemanAD]

Nevermind the horns....the LAND should be the main issue here.

If you hunt private property and it's not yours...you should be very nervous right now...

If you don't believe me, just wait and see....

Please explain? Is this another scare tactic that every last piece of land will be leased to the outfitter that only caters to the super rich?

[PurpleFloyd]

If we kill them all at 1 1/2 or younger.... what does genetics matter anyway. They're all gonna be brown with a little bit of meat on them, theres no changing that.

Where does that happen right now that you are concerned about and how different do they taste?

[PurpleFloyd]

Also, the doe tags we get don't say female only, they are deer without antlers including button bucks. I would think that passing on a young buck and taking an antlerless deer for the freezer is going to have some guys taking a future buck much earlier than the 1.5 that is a concern.

[hockeybc69]

2011 there were 76,000 adult bucks harvested.

2011 there were 17,500 fawn bucks harvested.

I would agree the fawn buck harvest may increase, but not significantly.

The harvest of yearling bucks would decrease 10 fold...

[Big Dave2]

BD2, nobody has to hunt for food anymore.

We don't have to do a lot of things. We don't have to hunt either.

I'm not saying I HAVE to hunt for food. I WANT to hunt for food.

Same reason I grow tomato plants in a garden, I certainly don't have to but I sure like to. I take pride in food I prepare myself without going to the store and buying the processed stuff. Where else can I get venison that I can afford if not to hunt for it? I just pickled 2 jars of farm fresh eggs on Thanksgiving day. I live across the street from a meat market that sells pickled eggs 6 days a week, I can go there and buy them any time I want to and have in the past but I prefer to take the time to make my own. Same goes for smoked ribs, I can go to famous Dave's but I prefer the ones I smoke myself.

If you want to judge outdoor sports on whether or not anyone HAS to do it in order to survive, you may as well shut them all down. IMO once hunting and fishing turns into a trophy sport instead of an activity to gather wholesome food for your family then it is ruined.

[InTheNorthwoods]

I'm not saying I HAVE to hunt for food. I WANT to hunt for food.

Same reason I grow tomato plants in a garden, I certainly don't have to but I sure like to. I take pride in food I prepare myself without going to the store and buying the processed stuff. Where else can I get venison that I can afford if not to hunt for it? I just pickled 2 jars of farm fresh eggs on Thanksgiving day. I live across the street from a meat market that sells pickled eggs 6 days a week, I can go there and buy them any time I want to and have in the past but I prefer to take the time to make my own. Same goes for smoked ribs, I can go to famous Dave's but I prefer the ones I smoke myself.

If you want to judge outdoor sports on whether or not anyone HAS to do it in order to survive, you may as well shut them all down. IMO once hunting and fishing turns into a trophy sport instead of an activity to gather wholesome food for your family then it is ruined.

Fairness in savagery - I think this is a very well thought out post by Dave. I can agree with a lot of what he is saying. His last paragraph is why I am not on board completely with APR's. I think there are other changes that can be made that acheive similar results as APR's without taking away the choice of a tag holder who wants to take the first legal deer they have a chance at so that they can get the meat they desire.

[surewood]

You could raise alot of unprocessed wholesome food for the cost of hunting. We hunt for the enjoyment and thrill of it. Venison is a benefit of it. If it was just for wholesome food many of us would raise cattle and not hunt at all and save money doing it. Yes, the meat is great, but we all know why we chase whitetail. How is it not trophy hunting since most of us don't need the meat and have the means to raise or grow our food? I thought every deer was a trophy? For people that hunt just for meat they can save a lot of money by signing up for venison donation or talk to the dnr. We hunt for the hunt.

[96trigger]

Quote:

IMO once hunting and fishing turns into a trophy sport instead of an activity to gather wholesome food for your family then it is ruined.

It has been ruined for 50 years. Keep telling yourself that maybe in the "good old days" hunting was all about family, and that people never hunted for bigger racks or went out looking to catch big fish. You can believe what you want, maybe in your mind you think its true. But I know, It has always been about size and quantity for most. Humans in general always want to either have the most, or have the largest, its in our nature.

For decades, I have seen pictures of people standing next to a great harvest of fish on a stringer, or a meat pole full of deer. Or the pictures would show a nice buck or a big fish if it was a lone picture. To act like this "problem" of people wanting trophies is something new, is absolutely ridiculous.

[Getanet]

You could raise alot of unprocessed wholesome food for the cost of hunting. We hunt for the enjoyment and thrill of it. Venison is a benefit of it. If it was just for wholesome food many of us would raise cattle and not hunt at all and save money doing it. Yes, the meat is great, but we all know why we chase whitetail. How is it not trophy hunting since most of us don't need the meat and have the means to raise or grow our food? I thought every deer was a trophy? For people that hunt just for meat they can save a lot of money by signing up for venison donation or talk to the dnr. We hunt for the hunt.

You also have the means to find your enjoyment and thrills from a million different ways other than hunting. I know plenty of people that wouldn't die if they didn't get a deer, but it certainly helps their food budget.

[Jameson]

...Why do you want young deer to live another year? If your answer does not contain "larger antlers" you are lieing through your teeth....

For everyone or just the Surewood?

Make a law that says we can't keep antlers and I'll not be against it. No pics allowed of the antlers even. The hunting is just so much better (see more animals more often) when the majority of the bucks don't get shot when they are 1.5's.

[surewood]

Exactly. It's about the hunt. That's what I said. All kinds of thrills from many different things. We choose hunting. I know it helps their food budget, but it's not the main reason they hunt. Like I said the dnr or venison donations or even neighbor would maybe give up some venison. We're all trophy hunting. Every deer is a trophy right?

[Big Dave2]

You could raise alot of unprocessed wholesome food for the cost of hunting. We hunt for the enjoyment and thrill of it. Venison is a benefit of it. If it was just for wholesome food many of us would raise cattle and not hunt at all and save money doing it. Yes, the meat is great, but we all know why we chase whitetail. How is it not trophy hunting since most of us don't need the meat and have the means to raise or grow our food? I thought every deer was a trophy? For people that hunt just for meat they can save a lot of money by signing up for venison donation or talk to the dnr. We hunt for the hunt.

1st of all, hunting does not have to cost very much at all for those of us who do not give in to the peer pressure of buying every new gadget that comes down the line.

2nd of all, it has nothing to do with how much it costs. I enjoy raising, hunting, catching or gathering my own food. That is the main enjoyment I get out of hunting, fishing, gardening, etc. The trophy I am after is the look on my family's face when I prepare a better than average meal made up of items I gathered and prepared myself with my own 2 hands.

To say that every hunter is out there for the trophy of large antlers is not accurate.

[lakevet]

For decades, I have seen pictures of people standing next to a great harvest of fish on a stringer, or a meat pole full of deer. Or the pictures would show a nice buck or a big fish if it was a lone picture. To act like this "problem" of people wanting trophies is something new, is absolutely ridiculous.

Looking through the old outdoor life, fur fish game and field & stream magazines from 50 years or more ago, hunting pictures frequently showed groups of hunters with all the deer shot, buck, doe and fawn. Often the hunters are in front of and partially blocking the view of the deer. All were part of the story and picture. Simply deer hunters getting together hunting deer. Big bucks were pursued, but usually were just part of the lineup on the meat pole in the picture.

Ironically this was back when Minnesota dominated the record books.

Now it is mostly the lone individual in the background with arms extended with the buck head shoved forward at the best angle to maximize the impression it is huge. Both magazines and pictures shown to me by hunters seem to be mostly this. I am glad to see some publications still show that first time hunter with that button buck or doe fawn and an ear to ear high beam smile. They however are usually back by the classified ads.

Now 40% of us refuse to shoot does and big bucks are targeted intensively like they were Osama Bin Laden. They are patterned, trail cammed, named, fed all kinds of nutritional products/food plots, then hunted from sept thru dec, including thru the peak of the rut during 32 days of firearms seasons. And people complain about Minnesota not being where they want it to be in the record books.

I guess our family is stuck in the past. Gun, license, matches, compass, wool clothes and family is the technology we use. We hunt together and very much enjoy eating deer.

I sincerely believe the deer herd can be managed with regulations that allow all of us to enjoy our hunting traditions by ourself or as a group. Wisconsin and Iowa do.

Wouldn't have it any other way

lakevet

P.S. no matter how you hunt, be sure to take a kid hunting.....often!

[surewood]

I do just fine without apr as I already mentioned. Yet, you single me out as to say I'm selfish. Meaning I don't need apr yet I'm willing to change and try something different that may be better or maybe not. It's not just me that feels this way. I have a feeling more would chime in if they weren't attacked about their opinion. It's my OPINION. You don't have to worry I'm not a law maker.