Zone 3 APR

[PostFrontal]

After years of meetings about implmenting APR, I haven't seen anything from the DNR for public input on how to improve it for next year. Just people's feelings about it. I would like to see what your ideas are on how to improve it. This is NOT a For or Against or Complain post.

I think we should simplify it, and so it makes it easier to identify how many points they have.

Here's mine: 3 points on one side, browtines do not count as a point.

I think this would effectively do the same thing as 4 points on 1 side because you are assuming the buck has browtimes. Whether the buck is walking broadside or right towards you it would be easier to identify points by not having to deal with the browtines, allows you to shoot the big 6 pointer, easier to identify on a running deer for those that their tradition is driving deer.

What say you?

[buckhunter21]

I do like the idea of not counting the brows as a point and just making it 3 points on the main beam. Another idea I was thinking was a minimum of 4 points on one side OR a minimum inside spread of say 12 inches or something like that. There are probably situations where you maybe cannot get an accurate count on points quickly enough for a shot but it might be easy to see that the deer is well out past his ears in spread so therefore that would make him a legal buck without the need to double check he has a certain amount of points before pulling the trigger. It would also work the other way, there might be instances where you cant tell how wide the deer is but you could see he had 4 points on one side. I think the addition of a spread exception would make people feel more comfortable knowing they have another option if they cannot get an accurate count on points. Thats just my 2 cents.

[walleyehunter80]

not sure how well the inside spread would work, my experiences with peoples abbility to measure without a tapemeasure is not good!

I have seen too many peoples 14" walleyes that were this big

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[BRULEDRIFTER]

might as well just hunt with tranquilizer darts and slice the neck open if it meets the "trophy" standard.

[96trigger]

I would make it a fine if someone shoots a buck that doesn't meet APR. This gives hunters a choice about how bad they really want to shoot that fork, and also, it makes it easier for someone who may make a mistake. Not to mention the super 6 pointers. I would have no problem paying the fine for shooting a 4 or 5 year old 6 pointer. Good way for the state to make some more revenue.

It would be really easy, when you register your dear it would get registered as an a nonAPR buck, and a bill would then get sent to you, courtesy of the state of Minnesota. I'm also talking like a $50-$75 dollar fine.

In many volunteer APR groups, there is sometimes a "fine" payed out to the landowner if a small buck is shot.

P.S. I would not slice the neck open and ruin the cape.

[analyzer]

I would say if you haven't filled your buck tag for 3 years, or 5 years or whatever you want to set it at, you are allowed to shoot "any buck". It's easy for the DNR to track whether you've filled your tag or not. When you're registering, it checks, and if you haven't filled yours out in 3 years or whatever, it gives you an "any buck" tag.

I know that would discourage folks from registering their bucks, but I also know my son has been patiently waiting for 9 years to shoot his first buck, because he wants a trophy. Should he be required to pass on a smaller one at this point? I think he's earned a shot at whatever buck if he wants to.

My brother and his 18 year old son just started hunting 2 years ago. They haven't fired their gun yet. They've passed on a few does, but haven't had a good shot on a buck yet. I think if you haven't shot a gun in 3 years, you ought to be able to shoot whatever you want. I'm worried they may get discouraged at some point.

[someday]

My first choice would be to let senior citizens have the same exemption as the 17 and younger. Having the outside the ear choice would make things easier. A buck I was unable to identify as having 4point on one side running pass at 30 feet, Had a rack well outside the ears at 100 yards.

[nonteepical]

from the DNR roundtable. the DNR estimates 2400 1.5 year olds were spared through APR's after the end of 2010 deer season harvest statistics for zone 3. thats alot of bucks that are going to be running around next year.

[96trigger]

I really don't see a problem with letting senior citizens and youth get to shoot whatever they want. It would still save a pile of buck.

[lakevet]

APR's would impact our tradition of hunting. Would hate to see APR's statewide for muzzy. When you hunt late season muzzy by still hunting, and driving deer in very thick cover, having deer give you a clear view of them so you can count points, etc much of the time just does not happen. For example this year during a drive, one of our muzzy group slipped up on a deer bedded 20 ft away at -20F in a evergreen swamp(spruce/cedar). He could see the entire deer except its head, which was tucked behind a tree trunk. You couldn't see more than 30 ft max in that area and average 15 feet. Since any deer is still legal in our muzzy area, he cleanly killed it in it's bed. Quite an accomplishment, esp since it was public land. He thought it likely was a doe(which still is a accomplishment many hunters have never done), but when he saw the head, here it was a decent buck. Binoculars would not help, unless they can see thru tree trunks and THICK boughs. Its -20F and any slight noise you make is amplified including squeeky snow under the boots. Moving so you can see and count points means the deer would see you and not wait around. Especially the wolf chased deer we hunt. My best muzzy buck was shot at about 50 feet when it was looking at me through a small "window" in the evergreens. He thought he was hidden and I was going to walk by. A step forward or back and you wouldn't be able to see the deer at all. I had jumped him twice before and only had very brief flashes as part of him hit openings. Well now I could see it's throat, face, and just the base of the antler on one side. I shot it thru the throat with my muzzy for a clean quick kill. It is common for us to see enough of the deer for a clean kill, but have parts of the deer that are not visible. Some swamps are so thick on the outside edges, we have to crawl in initially on our hands and knees. Shots in these swamps are measured in feet instead of yards as you cannot see any farther than that. Mild winters deer are in more open cover, but years like this, its into the thick stuff or eat beef the rest of the year. Having to check for points when late season muzzy is something that would be hard in our hunting situation, and I am interested in any suggestions from the pro APR group that would work for us who hunt that late season. We don't want to switch to the heated stand/food plot style waiting for deer to come out of the swamp (which is usually after dark), but instead prefer the old fashioned way of hunting. By the way, despite what you see in the media, last year only 3% of muzzy hunters shot ANY kind of antlered buck so as a group muzzy hunters have by far the least impact on bucks and the lowest antlered buck success already. The way we hunt is a lot different than the TV shows. It is a lot different than most hunters in zone 3. Friends think the way we hunt is too hard and we are nuts to do it that way, but we like it. We are old style muzzy hunters who just want to do our thing without bothering others.

By the way Zone 3 muzzy hunters in 2009 shot only 325 bucks total. That was only about 3.5% of the buck harvest for zone 3.

Personal experience: We see/shoot way fewer "spikes" in muzzy season than we did back years ago in the rifle rut hunt. So for us, harvest of young bucks is a very small percentage, and as we shoot the first legal DEER we see, we tend to harvest evenly across the population, if anything heavier on the antlerless side.

Interested in what you think.....

lakevet

[hockeybc69]

My thought on APR;

I dont want it for kids or elders.

I dont want it for archery. Muzzy I am on the fence.

I dont want it in lottery areas.

Implement it for firearms season where the open slaughter is today.

[lakevet]

from the DNR roundtable. the DNR estimates 2400 1.5 year olds were spared through APR's after the end of 2010 deer season harvest statistics for zone 3. thats alot of bucks that are going to be running around next year.

Are those stats on the DNR HSOforum? Have they posted the actual harvest stats for 2010?

a side note: from 1993 thru 2009 yearly buck harvest statewide has fluctuated from 64,867 (1997) to 116,612 (2004). That is a increase of 51,745 more bucks shot/year. An increase of 79.8% in yearly buck harvest from 1993 to 2004. By 2009 the buck harvest had dropped back from the peak of 116,612 (2004) down to 83,820. That is a drop of 32,792 bucks shot since 2004. A 28.1% decrease. Does that mean 32,792 bucks were "saved" to be shot the next year as more mature bucks? Those bucks likely are no longer out there as they didn't survive another winter, or were shot the previous season as part of a population management strategy. Old man winter is a major if not the main factor, esp the further North you go. Those 2400 bucks "saved" by apr's do not automatically translate into 2400 more bucks next year. More of those bucks will survive in SE MN than if it was up here in northern Minnesota as winter is usually much milder down there. Wildlife populations naturally fluctuate, sometimes a lot, and are not as easily "stored/saved" as we may like. Hope for an early spring.

Again, if you have seen 2010 harvest stats, let me know, I'd like to see them.

Thanks nonteepical!

lakevet

[lakevet]

My thought on APR;

I dont want it for kids or elders.

I dont want it for archery. Muzzy I am on the fence.

I dont want it in lottery areas.

Implement it for firearms season where the open slaughter is today.

In 2009:

Archers shot 7,650 bucks.......Muzzy shot 2,844 bucks.

Archers shot 2.68 times more bucks (268% more bucks) than muzzy!!

Rut firearms shot 83,008 bucks in 2009.

That's 29 times more bucks than muzzy!!!

That's 2900% more bucks than muzzy!!!

Why be more restrictive on muzzy hunters who are the LEAST SUCCESSFUL BUCK HUNTERS of any method of take????

lakevet

[zepman]

I know there's at least 4 bucks walking today that wouldn't have made it thru gun season last year in our group.

Out of the 2400 that were supposed to have been saved...I wonder how many lay dead as waste or weren't tagged at all?

I'm in favor of the APR's and am looking forward to hopefully seeing the DNR have success with this program.

[hockeybc69]

Lakevet,

Did I not say I am on the fence for muzzleloader APR?

You failed to add the other signifcant data to your post too.

2009 archery licenses sold:

99,474

2009 muzzleloader licenses sold:

63,282

The disparity is not as large as you make it sound when you add this little piece of data.

[lakevet]

Lakevet,

Did I not say I am on the fence for muzzleloader APR?

You failed to add the other signifcant data to your post too.

2009 archery licenses sold:

99,474

2009 muzzleloader licenses sold:

63,282

The disparity is not as large as you make it sound when you add this little piece of data.

I apologize if the post was on the strong side.

There were about 1.5 times more archers in 2009 than muzzy hunters, and archers shot 2.6 times more bucks.

So there are more archers and archers are more successful at shooting bucks.

Exempting muzzy from APR's would not significantly effect the goals of APR advocates as muzzy takes very few bucks already.

lakevet

[Getanet]

I find it interesting that people are for APR as long as they get an exemption for their style of hunting.

Make them do it, just not me.

[hockeybc69]

Quote:

I find it interesting that people are for APR as long as they get an exemption for their style of hunting.

Curious where you are picking up on that thought???

[Getanet]

People in favor of APR, but not for muzzle loader or archery. I understand the success rate and amount of hunters for both is lower than firearm, but it does seem disingenuous to be in favor of restricting one style, as long as no limitations are placed on the style of hunting they do.

[hockeybc69]

I do all 3 seasons. And I guess I dont see where anyone has clearly stated they only want APR to suit their personal hunting style.

I just dont see a need to have it in archery, as its got enough limitations just being archery hunting.

My other thought is to start it and try it for a while on some of the hunting opps. I dont see a reason to ram it home across the board right off the bat.

But if the DNR chooses to ram it home across the board in some new areas, I will be ok with it overall.

[Getanet]

Hockey, I'm not trying to be a pest, but you stated you don't think it should impact archery, while LakeVet clearly said muzzle loaded hunting should be exempt.

[hockeybc69]

Ok, I guess I dont understand what you are getting at then.

Darn forums.

Sometimes it creates more confusing than clarification.

[nonteepical]

Lakevet,

I got the info from my QDMA branch meeting Wed. night from the President and V.P of QDMA minnesota, who are members of my branch. They were in attendance at last weekends DNR roundtable, and the number came from Lou.

[PostFrontal]

I have been trying to find some statistics for awhile and can't seem to find them. Maybe you guys can help. I see Lou says that the goal for total harvest is around 200,000 deer. What I can't find anywhere is what their actual population goals are for each area in the state vs what they think the current populations are. This goes hand-in-hand with not ever hearing if their goal is to have all zones lottery or managed. Do you guys know where any of this infrmation is?

I think this would be valuable information in the APR discussion.

[lakevet]

Thanks nontypical,

Perhaps Lou can post the finals numbers/harvest stats with all the breakdowns (permit area type of season etc) as he has in the past. Discussion of about numbers can be more productive that discussions of opinions without the stats.

I think that if a type of season such as muzzy has negligible impact on a goal (such as more mature bucks) then it should be allowed to continue as is. The only reason we got a statewide muzzy season in the first place was that the DNR was convinced after conducting special hunts (like the ones used to test APR's) that muzzy hunting could be conducted with negligible impact even when deer pop was very low and doe permits were rare and a cause for major celibration when they showed up in one's mailbox. If stats show that muzzy is having an impact, then put on limits. At this point, I don't think there are the stats to support APR's for muzzy.

lakevet