Water Problems

[Mike Wallace]

Even thought it has been dry the last 10 days or so, I know the other shoe will drop and I will have water problems again.

I need to get a handle on the water coming in from under my basement and garage slabs (actually creates a fountain 4" tall through one crack) as well as from behind the bottom 1 or 2 courses of block (actually has enough pressure to squirt, not flow, through a crack in the bottom course). Here are some details"

I have a house with no sump, just floor drains.

Soil is very heavy clay based.

I have gutters that all drain more than 10' away from house.

The water from the houses behind me eventually ends up in my yard, either on top of the soil or in it.

Other than removing my deck, trenching down to the footing and putting a proper sump system in, do I have other options?

Will 2 or 3 sump holes and tubs remove enough water from under the house to alleviate the problem?

Any ideas are appreciated.

Mike Wallace

[CFRay]

Regarding the water squirting from the bottom course of block, there must be freely flowing water accumulating at that point. If there is enough water "head" pressure to squirt water there must be free water at the foundation wall and/or within the wall. Water would not move through heavy clay to create that much pressure. A proper way to backfill a new foundation would be to place sand or gravel directly against the foundation then use the onsite clay soils to complete the backfilling. You may have that granular material next to the wall which is letting water buildup and it's being trapped by the clay. There is then no place for it to go other than in your basement. You've got water coming next to your house either from the roof, draining overland to your foundation, or a layer of sand underground,(which of course you cannot see) letting the water arrive at your wall.

There are some draining baseboard type systems out there. A tube extends into the core of the block foundation wall and the hollow baseboard drains it to a sump and pump. I've only seen print ads for these systems, no real experience to relay. Good Luck

[Powerstroke]

I have one of these baseboard drain tile systems, but I did not install it. It was here when I bought it. ALl I can say is it works.

I agree that the only way water can squirt in is if there is enough gathered at the spot and it is under pressure. I would be thinking about tiling, but it sounds like you need to handle the problems at the foundation first.

[DANR]

Now a lot of the basement guys put the trench INSIDE. They cut the floor around the perimiter of the basement and run tile to a sump pit. When my buddy put his in drilled holes every so often in the lowest course of blocks also.

[hanson]

I've got a few ideas for you...

Obviously getting the surface water away from your house is very important and the easiest. Gutters, long downspouts, and grade sloping away from the house are critical.

Sounds more like big rainfall events are causing water runoff from neighbor properties to end up on your property. So you are on the side of a hill? Base of a hill? How about doing a few french drains or something similar from you backyard to the front, or from where the water is collecting to a lower elevation around the house. French drain is basically a buried perforated pipe (drain tile) that allows water in and then you have to send it somewhere. Could just have the pipe daylight in the front yard where the water will run into the street. Dig a trench, fill it with aggregate, place the pipe, cover with aggregate, cover with topsoil, plant grass. It doesn't have to be perforated the entire run either, just where you want to collect the water from.

Getting the water around the house would be my first approach. If that doesn't work or isn't an option, a full exterior perimeter foundation drain tile system would be my next approach. Yes that requires full excavation of the perimeter of the house. While the foundation is opened up, install a waterproofing membrane to the foundation wall. You can even install a drainage board that allows any water that gets to the membrane to drop down to the tile quickly. If the water is bad, your sump will be running a lot. Make sure you have a back up pump and maybe even battery backup if you lose power.

If you have water squirting through your foundation wall, you've got a lake under your slab!

Honestly, I would rather solve my water problem outside the house than rely on an interior tile system. Both would be ideal with the interior system as a backup to the exterior.

The best solution is to design for this in the first place but you don't have that option now, or never had the option if buying used. I recently attended a seminar (I'm an architect) about building failures and foundation problems are the most costly to fix after the building is built. Well... duh? But that was the point that this stuff should be installed when you have the chance rather than after the fact because it'll cost you 10 times more.

[Tom7227]

I had a very similar situation at my house. I did the outside work one year including laying a slab 11 feet wide across the back of the house. In 89 a friend and I cut and then jacked a 12 inch wide trench aaround the perimeter of the basement. I drilled 3/4 inch ole in every cavity of the block and water squirted out every one for at least a minite, including the holes on a block wall that was inside the house by at least 3 feet. I put pipe in every hole and a 90 degree fitting on the end. We dug down about 15 inches and put in a sleeved drain tile and then pea gravel. Cemented over it all and haven''t had any surface water since.

I put in two sumps and for a couple weeks after we fnished I calculated that they pumped about 1200 gallons of water a day out of the basement. They're drymost of the year but get a bit of a workout in spring and if we have a wet spell.

It was the hardest work I've ever done in my life to get all that material out of my basement, and I have a walk out. It solved my problems but it sure was a terrible amount of work.

[walleyeseeker]

Just went through this with my neighbor's house. We cut a hole in the floor and dug below floor level, put a 5 gallon pail full of holes in, and back filled with 1" rock around it. The hydraulic pressure let the water flow very easily. This solved their problem of seepage within an hour. There are a lot of houses without tile around them with sump holes.

I read somewhere once that a sump hole without tile will draw water from a 25' radius. It is a lot less expensive to try this before installing a tile around the inside.

[delcecchi]

If you have a strong back and a weak mind, like I do, you can cut or break the slab around the edge of the basement floor, dig a trench, drill holes into the cavities in the bottom row of blocks, lay perforated drain tile in a bed of pea gravel in the trench, put tubes in the holes in the block running to the tile, lay plastic over the top of the pea gravel and up the wall, and pour concrete on top of the plastic to fix the floor. Leave a small gap between the concrete and the wall by putting a piece of 1/4 inch plywood against the wall first. Be sure the pea gravel comes up a little on the footings. Run the drain tile into a sump pit or two. '

Any water that comes through the block will run down the inside of the plastic into the trench. Any water that gets into the block will run out the tube into the trench. And water under the slab will migrate into the trench and then to the sump. Pump it from the sump outside and you are good.

I had that problem, although yours sounds worse, and that fixed it. Didn't cost much, but carrying those buckets of concrete and clay up from the basement got a little old.

You can rent an electric jackhammer or a concrete saw if you are in a hurry.

[Tom7227]

An added note - you need to have a size 18 neck and a size 3 head to really consider this a DIY.

[Mike Wallace]

Thanks for all the responses.

I kind of figured that I was going to have to tile the inside of the foundation since doing the outside would require removing two decks.

I do live mid-hill and I know the water table, even on this hill, is pretty high. When I dug the footings for my deck to 42", one of the holes had 2" of water in it overnight.

For now, it sounds like I may be able to relieve some pressure with just a sump pit and pump. Hopefully this can get rid of some of the water under the slab.

Fortunately I do have a size 18 neck. My labor is free. Now if I can just collect on some of the favors my friends owe me...

[Surface Tension]

Just went through this with my neighbor's house. We cut a hole in the floor and dug below floor level, put a 5 gallon pail full of holes in, and back filled with 1" rock around it. The hydraulic pressure let the water flow very easily. This solved their problem of seepage within an hour. There are a lot of houses without tile around them with sump holes.

I read somewhere once that a sump hole without tile will draw water from a 25' radius. It is a lot less expensive to try this before installing a tile around the inside.

I'd go this route as a temp test to your solution. If that is all that is needed without having to install drain tile to the interior footing along with weep holes in the bottom coarse of block. Then install a air tight lid on a perforated sump basin. I say air tight lid because of Radon gas.

If it ends up you need to add tile you'll use a different basin that the drain tile connects to.

After you dig your hole you might be surprised to see drain tile along the interior footing.

The french drain along with the grade slopping away from the house are a must do.

Is this an on going problem or something that happened with resent rains?

How old is the house?

If the water was an issue when the basement was dug there may have been a non mechanical solution in place that is failing because one or more reasons.

Have you looked around for a tile that might be daylighted?

Floor drains as in what?

A pit with drain tile running into it then out to the sewer?

[Mike Wallace]

House was built in 1950.

There are two floor drains in the basement and one in the garage that connect to the sewer.

I've tested for Radon and it was high, but not in the dangerous level. Opening up the slab may change that. Good point to remember.

I'm guessing this is an ongoing problem. We have lived in the house 6 years and there have been 4 times in 6 years that we have had problems. However, there is evidence of it before we were there (that the inspector didn't catch, but neither did I when I walked through). However, in the past two years the garaged floor and apron has heaved. These developments are new I feel. The recent rains made it happen again.

I think I have the surface water controlled, this is a sub surface water problem.

[Sorgy]

I had the interior draintiling done back in 94 on my house. We have not had a problem since. Standard Water Control did my work and they back their work for me or any future buyer.

It was a job like others have said. 1) they cut a trench along the affected walls. 2) they then broke up the concrete and hauled it out in buckets out the windows to a dumpster.

3)they dug a trench, layed perf pipe and installed a sump basket and pump.

4) they drilled each block and installed a special plate that lets the water run out of the block and over the footing to the perf pipe. backfilled with Pea gravel and poured the concret .

I have not had any issues with the system. they had the bucket system and ran them to a dumpster. You would need a good sized crew like they had. The job was completed in like a day.

Good Luck

Steve

[SFC]

Not a hard project besides the labor and the jack hammering & lots of buckets. If u have the time and friends go for it.

[Mike Wallace]

Thanks, again, for all the responses. I am hoping to get at least on sump in before winter to try and get some of the water out from under the slab. If I do, I will post reports.

[Shorelunch]

Would a sand point well work? It would go below the foundation and then you could send the water way beyond the house via a hose.

[Tom7227]

Mike,

The sump may help a bit but here's something to consider. No matter where you put the sump you're expecting the water to flow to that point. It's going to take the path of least resistence and in the process it may move some soil along with it. When I did my job, mentioned above, there was a lot of water in the blocks. If you have the same problem that constant flow of water through the blocks is going to leach material out of them. If somehow the water comes through the soil I would think you may creat channels eventually for it to flow and that's going to erode material out from under your floor.

The drain tile that you put around the permimeter of the basement has a polyester sock around it and that keeps the soil from getting away from you.

When you plan things out give some thought on how you're going to get the water out of your basement. You can't dump it into any city sewer system anymore and you sure don't want to put it into your drainfield if you have one. I ended up running it up to the ceiling in the basement and out the side. My house is on a hill so I dug a 2 inch pipe into the hill and have the water come out about 50 feet from the house way downhill. When I set it up I put a backflow preventer on the line just up from the pump so that it wouldn't al drain back into the sump. I also ended up having to put in a vent device that would allow air into the line once the pump stopped so that the pipe on the outside would drain. Before I did that it would gurgle for quite a while and that was irritating.

[Redlantern]

Many sump pumps come with a check valve. Just a little rubber gasket that has a flap. Be sure to install it the correct position so the water will flow through. You can also buy an inline checkvalve but I really don't see the point for groundwater. A way of avoiding having to buy a vent is to drill a 1/4 inch hole just above the checkvalve but low enough so it doesn't spray out of the basin. The pump manufacturer may mention this in the directions. Once you get the piping to the highest point, be sure to put some pitch on the pipe. No need to make your pump work harder than neccessary.

[delcecchi]

An added note - you need to have a size 18 neck and a size 3 head to really consider this a DIY.

Hey, I resemble that remark, except for the size 3 head part. It just takes having more time than money. It took me a good while, working on it a few hours at a time. The kids would help when they came home from college. I would put the dirt and concrete in a garbage can or 5 and they would help get it outside a bucket at a time (those horse feeding buckets at FF really stand up). Exercise is good.

140 feet of trench doesn't really take that long, maybe an hour a foot or so. Ten hours a week gets it done in 3 months. Not much ice fishing around Rochester, and I don't hunt so it was a winter project.

[Mike Wallace]

Update:

Water under my slab has now frozen and heaved my garage floor and apron to the point our van no longer fits in the garage (I only had a few inches of clearance before).

Unfortunately, my wife did not heed my warning not to park in the garage ("but it will be really cold tomorrow morning") and as she backed out she scraped the roof of the van with the garage door. ARRRG! Now I have three problems: water under the floor, van with scratched roof, and a wife that secretly thinks the problem is my fault.

I did stop by the Menards in Golden Valley and pick up a tub for a future sump pit for only $11. So I've got that goin' for me...

[pureinsanity]

This reminds me of a job I did a while back as a landscaper. Some people had a problem with their slab heaving during the winter months. Heaving in great amounts. It was tore out, pavers replaced it with more than enough sufficient base under it. Same problem. Finally we went in with a small trac hoe and dug down to the button of the foundation. Water was shooting out of the block with such pressure it amazed me. Water had seeped in and filled the block.

After replacing most the tile around the foundation and tiling in all down spots the problem was solved.