APRs in Lottery Areas?

[deerminator]

Its not because of habitat, nutrition, or genetics, it is because more of their bucks are allowed to get to an older age class. I speak of mentality I am looking at the big picture, overall WI has more of a QDM mentality than us and it is easy to see.

I don't think its a QDM mentality, I think its that they simply have more habitat and more deer and thus more chances at more mature bucks. And that's not saying everyone in Wisconsin shoots big bucks, its just saying more are shot there because of the increased opportunities, not QDM or APRs. There's also a lot of marketing that goes on that leads everyone to believe that in a top trophy state, everyone is shooting booners every year. Talk to my friends in Iowa who hunt great land. That is not the case.

[ntrider]

cant you bait in wisconsin??? maybe more are shot because of baiting...

[njpierz]

The last thing we need is more rules!

[Heartman]

Thank you, BRULEDRIFTER. Read the entire thread, found nothing, and had some kind of mental block preventing me from figuring it out.

Ah, such is life.

[InTheNorthwoods]

Agreed, which is why I personally don't support APRs, because they limit peoples' choices.

I agree that people's choices shouldn't be limited.

I also agree with you as far as I don't think APR's are a very good option. But I believe that because they would be very difficult to enforce and difficult for many hunters to accept.

But overall, the DNR does many things that take away people's choice of what to shoot.

For example, I don't agree with party hunting for the same reason you don't agree with APR's. Party hunting limits my choice to not shoot small bucks and to let every small buck I see walk, because it allows others to legally shoot more small bucks than they would be individually permitted to, in exchange taking away the opportunity of another to take a buck or hopefully let it grow for future seasons. If you can only tag one buck a year, you should not be able to shoot more than one buck a year. Every buck a person shoots in excess of their own buck is taking a choice away from another hunter who would like to see a buck grow up.

Just this year I passed up 6 bucks in MN on opening weekend and did not shoot a deer. That was my choice. However, I know two of those got shot by the same person, taking away MY CHOICE to hopefully let at least one of those bucks grow up.

My point is, individual's choices are limited by the DNR in many ways, so I don't think we should value a "brown its down" mentality hunters' choice more than a trophy hunters choice.

Thus, I would be in full support of any measure the DNR takes to improve the age structure of the bucks in MN (even though I think APR's would be the wrong measure to take).

[Bear55]

I have to agree with you InTheNorthWoods, APR wouldn't be my first choice either but if given a choice betweeen the same old deer management for the past 30+ years and APR I will take APR every time. Maybe just eliminating party hunting would be enough, we do know there is plenty of cross tagging both legal and illegal. Again no one has suggested APR for lotto areas because I think we all agree that wouldn't work.

But then if we start talking about party hunting the meat hunters get all upset too so it really doesn't matter what approach we take. Lou himself said about 50% of randomly surveyed hunters are in favor of APR so maybe its time for those against QDM to meet us in the middle. They have had regulations 100% in their favor forever, a little change might just be worth a try.

[96trigger]

If you are weighing in on this, can you please let us know what kind of area you hunt in? Managed, IH, or lotto?

I am for it, and I hunt in a Managed area. By the way Wisconsin fans, this is a quote from an emai I got from my brother on Monday, he has a 40 acre farm in Menomonie and also hunted a farm down by Ripon Wisconsin. Pay attention to the last sentence.

Quote:

. Needless to say, hunting wi this year was really slow. It sounds like it was all over the state. Only a couple people at the mill shot deer. So far, my customers have not been too happy with there hunt. Out of 9 of us at XXXXXXX parents, only 2 shot deer. I should of had one but I got busted and missed. I saw a few deer but only had that one shot. .....

There's no hunting like mn hunting.

[PEATMOSS]

Interesting logic Bear. For the last couple hundred years or so we've had the freedom to choose whether or not to own a firearm.Perhaps we should be willing to compromise and just meet the Brady bunch in the middle? Not me.

It's so ironic how most outdoorsmen consider themselves a conservative, profess to value freedom, want government to stay off our backs with silly laws and regulations. And yet, folks want to criminalize shooting a male deer that doesn't have enough bony, inedible appendage sticking out of the top of it's head.

[Arctic]

It's so ironic how most outdoorsmen consider themselves a conservative, profess to value freedom, want government to stay off our backs with silly laws and regulations. And yet, folks want to criminalize shooting a male deer that doesn't have enough bony, inedible appendage sticking out of the top of it's head.

I wouldn't go so far as saying that most sportsman are conservative. Certainly, they are not generally liberals, but like most Americans are somewhere in the middle. Depends on the topic, the situation, and how the questions are asked!

[Bear55]

Depends on the topic, the situation, and how the questions are asked!

Agreed. Lets also not confuse the 2nd amendment with some deer hunting regulations.

[BeezeHound]

I hunt in a lottery area, used to be intensive harvest just a couple years ago but I'm not even gonna start on that one. Anyway, nothing gets my heart pumping like it's about ready to explode than having a big, mature buck in my sights. However, the example I'm about to give you, even though this isn't the norm for everyone, is why I don't want to see APR.

I have 200 acres that I'm lucky enough to be able to hunt. I let young deer walk because I choose to and have faith that the bedding and sanctuary areas we made on our land will hold some of the deer I let go. The neighboring farm for the most part had been practicing this as well when times were good during the intensive harvest era.

The second weekend of the gun season I went over to the neighbors to see how their luck had been since our group had not seen much. I walked into their shop and there hung a couple forks from the rafters. I though to myself "wow, that's weird". We chat for a bit and he says those are the only 2 deer they have seen period. Then he goes on to explain how the wife had lost her job and times were really, really tough and he just needed some meat for the table and said the kids were getting sick of Ramen noodles. I felt so bad for the guy since I had no idea, but I know that those 2 fork horns were taken out of necessity. The guy needed to feed his family. That was kind of a little awakening to me, let others hunt they way they need or want to and I will keep hunting they way I want to.

[Sutty]

To answer a few questions

Yes in Wisconsin you can bait

They have had earn a buck at least in some of the state, their hunters are PO'd as a whole because of a huge reduction in their herd this year. They are not happy right now how things are being managed.

In MN the last 30 years have not been the same in terms of how deer hunting is manged in this state. It has been very different the past 5-8 years or so. (not saying that is right or wrong)

On baiting I am opposed, and although food plots share some of the same characteristics, I am not for adding more laws to the books as more things can be fixed with common sense than laws. Good luck trying to write a law that would work well when you hunt in farm country.

[james_walleye]

Jabug, You just reaffirmed my point near the begining of this thread that it would be politically impossible to get APRs in this state, beyond the few that are currently in place in a few small state parks.

I would hope you don't "leave" any deer you shoot. That's illegal and unethical in any hunter's book.

Its not going to be impossible to get APR in this state. No one has ever said the whole state should have APR. I believe its very possible to see something like zone 3 in the SE corner of the state have APR. Or let me rephrase that, i believe you will see them down here.

[jabug]

i used the leaveing a deer lay as an example of what could happen and probably will with apr in place. after shot what do you choose. leave it lay which is illegal but something you are likely to get by with or take it which would also be illegal with alot better chance of being caught. i for one don't want to be forced into that decission

[heat checker]

As long as the can is open, and worms are crawlin all over, what is the theory behind the bucks only, limited youth doe areas. I get the limited doe part as population needs to increase, but why the slaughter of all the young bucks? It will take several years to get a decent amount of bucks (providing this was a one year deal, if not it's going to be ugly). I would rather see people get turned down for a tag if population is too low. OR, heres a thought, in these areas, start the season 2 weeks later so those young, hormone-driven bucks aren't slaughtered.

[Arctic]

From my observations I believe that young bucks are the dumbest deer in the woods. Starting last year, I no longer shoot them, or any small deer, which often turn out to be button bucks. Seems to be the best strategy to increase the number of mature bucks.

[Arctic]

Its not going to be impossible to get APR in this state. No one has ever said the whole state should have APR. I believe its very possible to see something like zone 3 in the SE corner of the state have APR. Or let me rephrase that, i believe you will see them down here.

[MUSKY18]

After reading most of this thread and posting my thoughts as well, I did a little research online. Currently there are 22 states that use some type of APR. For the most part, there was quite the opposition to APR, but now, in the states that have been using it for a few years, there seems to be an overwhelming support for it. Does it mean it will make Minnesota that much better to hunt? I dont know. I hunt in a lottery area and seeing a mature bucks is next to impossible. It has been at least a good 4 years since someone in our party shot a "quality" buck. Granted the area we hunt isn't prime area for trophy bucks, but when every deer that walks in front of someone get blasted, odds are we will never know how big the buks can actually get. If I have the tag, I will always take a doe so there is meat in the freezer, then I spend the rest of the season hunting for a trophy with my bow. I think that APR would be good in some areas, and a pain in the arse in others, but unless it is tried in some areas of the state, we will never know, will we?

[96trigger]

Quote:

I believe there will be very stiff opposition to it though

I agree with Jamie, I believe that SEMN will get APR possibly as soon as next year. I don't think that there is that much opposition to it in Zone 3. There is some, but not as much as there used to be. I think alot of people are already practicing QDM privately on their own land, and there are plenty of people that hunt public land that would like to see it take place. There are plenty of does to shoot for those that want meat.

I would also hope that if APR was in place, there would only be a fine involved in taking. It would not be a criminal charge. That fork or basket, would maybe cost you an extra $75, but you wouldn't lose your license or gun in the process. That might help ease peoples worries about mistakes.

[NoWiser]

I'm still on the fence about APR. Part of me would really like to see them, and part of me questions whether or not the DNR should have the right to tell people how big of a buck they can shoot. I do believe party hunting should be a thing of the past, but that is a different topic.

The one argument that I do not buy for those against APR is the one about it not working because people will make mistakes and shoot a deer with too few points. When a pheasant gets up and flies straight into the setting sun so that you can't tell if its a hen or rooster do you shoot at it? I would sure hope not because a. you are risking shooting a hen and b. its not safe. Its the same way with deer. If you can't tell what it is, you shouldn't shoot. Sure, every couple years you might have to let a buck walk because you can't be certain how many points it is, but so be it. Next year when you see him there will be no question. I also don't believe the rule would read "only 8 points or bigger", it would probably be more like "3 points per side" or "4 points per side" so that you only have to get a good view of one side of the rack. Another benefit of the APRs would be safety. I for one would feel much safer walking through the woods knowing that you can't be out there with a "brown its down" mentality. A lot harder to mistake a person for a deer when you are trying to count antler points before you shoot.

APRs in a lottery area.....thats even tougher. I would say no, but I believe in an area of the state where lottery areas and managed areas are close together you would have a lot of people cheating. Just my thoughts.....like I said, I am still on the fence about this whole idea. BTW, I usually hunt two areas in zone 1, both have been managed lately, but I see one or both going to lottery next year. I hunt all public land, also.

[Bear55]

Nice to hear some people think this is at least worth a try in parts of the state. The intensive harvest areas would be ideal places to test out APR's - even in some managed areas.

Just a question, how many people that hunt intensive harvest or long standing management areas are against APR's in their area?

[BobT]

APR in intensive areas? Maybe I need an education but what is APR? That's Antler Point Restriction, right?

If I'm correct, wouldn't this be detrimental in an intensive harvest area? After all, isn't the reason it's an intensive harvest area is because there are too many deer?

By requiring hunters who take the smaller bucks from this area to basically not take any means we would allow the lower gene pool varieties to continue breeding. How does that improve the quality of the remaining bucks?

[Musky Buck]

The thing is most of our does in many areas are already bred by yearling bucks, when so many does come into heat in a short period of time a big buck is staying with his doe until the job is done leaving other does for other bucks. If anyone is overpopulated with bucks please holler. A fair amount of smart bucks slip through the cracks and plenty of hunters are letting what few bucks they see walk already. I've been a APR hunter since 1993 as well as everyone in our hunting party which totals 23 guys. We haven't noticed much difference, but there's no doubt when we do get larger bucks it's almost a 100% certainty that buck could've been taken long ago. Any Itasca State Park APR reports ? What year are they in ?

[Musky Buck]

The key is age. They must shed 2 sets of antlers to be fairly decent although some decent 2.5 year olds exist especially in farm country. So APR in effect is to try to age the 1.5's to at least a 2.5 which gives the buck another year of smarts. The biggest bucks take and often protect the best areas leaving those 1.5's to roam more in less desirable cover searching marginal places for a doe scent which is part of why we see so many roaming around haphazardly. I hope they try a part of the state and see if it works, it will be interesting to see the +'s and -'s.

[mabr]

APR in intensive areas? Maybe I need an education but what is APR? That's Antler Point Restriction, right?

If I'm correct, wouldn't this be detrimental in an intensive harvest area? After all, isn't the reason it's an intensive harvest area is because there are too many deer?

By requiring hunters who take the smaller bucks from this area to basically not take any means we would allow the lower gene pool varieties to continue breeding. How does that improve the quality of the remaining bucks?

It would increase the number of does being harvested which if im correct is the whole purpose of IH areas to start with.