Neighborhood Watch???

[CANOPY SAM]

Another thread, the topic entitled Poached Buck, has inspired me to stick my neck out and ask this question. I think this topic could be applied to any of the other threads on this HSOforum, but in my observations, big game hunting most often lives in the deepest part of our hearts, and thusly raises the most heated of our emotions when challenged or violated.

How many of you are growing tired of reading about game and fish violations in our state? How many of you believe this is an ever increasing problem and might be willing to do something to stop it?

With these questions in mind I want to tell you about a conversation I had with someone on this HSOforum just last fall.

This individual had posted a thread warning people that border patrol officers were checking boats on a particular stretch of river in the northern region of our state. He was sharing this "sage" advice because he and his pals had just recently been ticketed for fishing on the side of the river they were not licensed to fish on.

What became apparent after several posts was that this person, and his boat mates, were fully aware of what they were doing the whole time. They intended to do it, and they'd been doing it for several days! Pretty shocking when they finally got busted, huh - NOT!

I was really intrigued by the fact that this guy was actually sharing this information on-line, almost snubbing his nose at the law, as though others might benifit from his insight. He knew he was breaking the law, and knew others that were too, and he was offering a public "heads up".

Evidently, the fishing was so good that it was worth the fine to sit tight in illegal waters, and chance being caught. That right there might suggest that fines for fishing violations are too minimal in our state.

There's a saying that goes something like this. The true test of a man's character is not how he behaves while others are watching. The test is how he behaves when no one is watching.

Again, with this thought in mind, do you think that if hunters and fishermen knew, in the back of their minds, that someone other than a Conservation Officer were possibly "watching", would it vastly reduce the number of game and fish violations in our state? If people thought they might be turned in by a plain clothed civilian, someone fishing or hunting in the same area, would they be less likely to break the law?

Now I know what you're going to say - that's why the TIP line was invented. But is TIP doing enough?

What I'm suggesting is a designated task force of volunteer hunters and fisherman that give up a bit of their time each season to just watch. Not get involved. Not vigilanty justice, or field law enforcement. Just watch, take notes, and report to the authorities when infractions are observed.

Personally, I know I have friends, and acquaintences that tend to "bend" the game and fish laws when they know they're safe from watching eyes. But my gentle reminding them of the regulations, and my presence with them afield, prevents them from following thru on their temptations.

What if every sportsman and woman out there knew there was an army of "watchdogs" listening and watching: ie. having a cup of coffee at the boat landing, or the local cafe, or tavern, asking how was hunting or fishing today, casually counting the fish they drop in the livewell from a nearby boat, or how many birds they drop in the field, or noting where they're going with that pickup load of corn?

It's my feeling that if the general public knew there were many, many more eyes out there observing than what the DNR can currently offer we could significantly reduce poaching in our state. This works in neighborhood watch programs to reduce or eliminate crimes. It only takes a few dedicated volunteers to make a difference. What if we could come up with a couple hundred statewide?

How many of you would be willing to give up a few days a year to do this? What are your thoughts?

[Arctic]

I think that if more people would report violations when they are out in the field, there would be more people busted for illegal activity. I've always said that penalties for most crimes are too soft. Don't add more laws, just enforce the laws we have, severely penalize chronic offenders, and educate/mentor your (or someone else's) kids.

Many/most poachers are very similar to pedifiles and sexual preditors. They love the thrill of it and the challenge of not getting caught.

[Coach1310]

Many/most poachers are very similar to pedifiles and sexual preditors. They love the thrill of it and the challenge of not getting caught.

I understand what Canopy Sam is saying, but until folks are going to have enough integrity to respect the laws on their own and follow them, I fear that not much will change. You might be able to curb violations for a while, but some folks will just find other ways/methods to get a way with it.

Now.... comaparing a poacher to a pedofile/sexual predator is getting carried away in my opinion..an apples to oranges deal in my opinion. How many of us have actually talked to these poachers to find out what their motivation is?

[Walleye Guy]

I am very tired of poaching and other illegal activities as it relates to the pursuit of fish and game in our state and neighboring states. Besides the illegal activity I quickly tire of the unethical activity (my opinion of that activity) that occurs in these pursuits.

I think it really comes down to a person's basic morals and their own ability to sleep at night. There are many people that have no issue shooting a limit of ducks when they came out late and they set up 75 yards up wind of the guys who were there 3 hours before shooting time. Or the guys that will intentaional cut off another group of guys on public land while making a walk for pheasants. Or the guys who will troll crankbaits through a squandron of bobber fisherman because this is where they catch walleyes. I could go on and on.

People need to realize that its not all about the catch or the kill. The enjoyment of the pursuit or just being outdoors, for many of us, is what matters. That enjoyment can get squashed in a quick hurry by others whose only measure of success is a full livewell, a limit of birds or a deer in the back of the pick-up.

We will never be able to have all sportsmen (and I am using that term loosely) measure their success by their pure enjoyment in the field or on the water.

All that being said, I certianly like catching a bunch of fish or harvesting a bunch of birds or shooting a trophy buck. However I don't feel like I am not successful if if don't accomplish those feats.

I think we all need to be aware of how our actions effect the experience of the other sportsmen who may be in close proximity to us while we pursue our passsions.

[pulleye16]

Maybe alittle better analogy...how many people speed on the roads, cut people off, sneak an extra item in the express lane at the grocery store, keep the wrong amount of change when given extra, fudge on your taxes????? It has to do with the way you were brought up and raised...people now days are very selfish and will expoit every opportunity they can get away with. I love the quote of doing good when no one is around. Be hunting, fishing, driving, shopping or whatever....people just need to be...well,simply "good people" like we had here once, they were called "greatest generation" of all. if only we could be more like them...will be missed dearly by me!!!

[picksbigwagon]

Canopy,

We have the TIP line to help encourage us to become watchdogs and report violations. I would hate to see the DNR create a group of watchdogs, you would be asking for trouble with something like that because some people when they get a taste for power, go way over the top.

My wife and I are starting to look for a new house, some of the houses have association fee's and I don't like that a committee of busy bodies can dictate things like how long my grass can be, how many xmas lights I can put up if I am allowed to at all, and what other things I can do to my private property. You want us to have a group of busy bodies out hawking over us in the woods or on the water????? No thank you

The problem as I see it, is our society has a real problem with laws/rules (i.e We need more rule and laws to catch the people who are breaking the ones we have (and oh by the way, don't enforce those laws on me) Tax Cheats, extra marital affairs, bad loans, reality tv shows about rich lazy house wives in major cities? Our society needs a major moral overhaul, how are we going to legislate that one??? I said this in another post, you can't legislate ethics.

[Gordie]

picks is 100 percent on the money with this one. We are the wacth dogs so to speak already and the TIP # is there for us to use. I see the problem being that people are scared to use it "GET INVOLED" but are ready to complain abotu it.

Its like the price of gas the guy that speeds by you doing 80mph is ussally the first guy to complain about the price of gas being to high. maybe thats a bad analogy but we need to use the tools that are already in place for us to use.

[Red Miller]

I agree, we need to do a better job of enforcing the laws we already have. I do think the number of violaters and violations has increased significantly and that puts more pressure on law enforcement. But they wont do anything if they dont know about it. Thats what TIP is there for.

It is a bit depressing to see the trends and its not just hunting and fishing. Its all over. It comes back to individual values and respect for others. I think a general lack of respect for others is more prevalent today than in years past. It also says something about how our children are being brought up. Too much ME ME ME. But thats a whole 'nother argument.

[picksbigwagon]

My favorite movie quote is from Hook (the Robin Williams and Dustin Hoffman Peter Pan movie): "ME ME ME, MINE MINE MINE, NOW NOW NOW"

[WhiskeyWoods]

Hey Canopy, I also just wanted to tell you that this individual has no idea what he's talking about...Border Patrol does not have the authority to enforce gaming laws of a state and are not "out to get fisherman"...Border Patrol is NOT the Canadian side which is ANOTHER COUNTRY, thus having their own rules and regs. They are federal agents and DNR is a state agency. People attach the wrong name or title and all this does is confuse the next person they tell these looney stories to. The U.S. Border Patrol is only interested in examining entries of the illegal manner and smuggling. There is a lot of water on our state's border so logically you will see them at boat landings time to time. Also note Border Patrol is not the guys in blue that you go through a port to be inspected by, those are Customs Officers.... The Border Patrol are the guys in green that protect this country. While there appears to be more of a need of them in the South I can tell you from living up on the border they do catch more people then is believed.....I am sure though that if a Border Patrol Agent is working his shift and notices some game violation he is going to be as mad as the next honest outdoorsman and contact the appropriate authority (DNR).

[Nathansdad]

Good observation Red.

Where has respect for others gone. When I was a kid we were taught to respect others. It was yes sir, no sir and yes mamm, no mamm. Our parents had control of us, not kids in control of our parents. We were taught to sit still be quiet and be respectfull of others. I think teaching respect is the first step in minimizing the numbers of "anything if it's better for ME" attitudes out there.

If dad illegally baits deer what do you think the kid is likley to do?

If dad double dips when the fish are bitting what do you think the kid is likley to do?

If dad trespasses on private property what do you think the kid is likley to do?

If dad does not register his deer what do you think the kid is likley to do?

I truley believe kids look up to their parents and if the parents do not set a good example then the kids assume what their parents do is o.k. and they follow in their parents footsteps.

Don't get me wrong, I believe there are a lot of great fathers and kids out there but the kids entering our sport need good solid roll models to learn from. If we as parents do not teach ethics now we will all be paying the price for it in the years to come.

[Tom7227]

Couple of points from a guy with several decades as a prosecutor in St. Paul.

Who is going to pay for the increased enforcement? Assume that you mean Co's and not that you expect local law enforcement to take up the task - who is going to pay for the CO's. I have read that the current force is limited in what they can do by things as simple as not having enough fuel to patrol as much as they could. Should I meet a CO at the local gas station and fill her truck for her? You can have as many eyes as you want out there, and call TIP as often as you want, but without adequate resources in personnel and equipment not much more can be done.

Then there's the problem of the court system. The system is well set up to deal with the routine crimes. It doesn't do well at all with things that are out of the routine. Many of the prosecutors don't have a clue what the game and fish laws are/mean and so they're reluctant to take a case. Why spend 3 hours learning what a crappie is and how many are allowed in a limit, and the limits of authority a CO has when I can handle 7 DWI's in the same time. The judges are even less knowledgeable, and frankly you're not going to change that.

The sentencing system in Minnesota is set up in a way that is designed to make things pretty much the same across the state. Most of the game and fish law violations are 'payable' offenses - get the ticket and write the check, just like a speeding ticket. The cost of incarcerating someone is so high that the courts are now cutting back on who gets packed. A four time DWI was a mandatory prison sentence not that long ago and now there's pressure to cut that back because it's costing to much to house them.

So, you willing to have your license increased by $10 to fund more enforcement? $20? How much?

[Arctic]

Good post, Tom7227. But when the justice system fails to do its job, as tough as it might be, the general public loses confidence in that system. I can think of plenty of cases where an individual with repeat DWIs has eventually killed a person, or where some convicted sexual preditor gets out of prison after a short sentence and

then rapes and kills someone. The high cost of keeping a criminal in prison is not the fault of the public.

[Big A]

The high cost of keeping a criminal in prison is not the fault of the public.

true.. and that renders a question of whose fault is it?

but ultimately.. it would be the public who would need to fund the costs of incarceration... and that is not cheap.

Prisons and jails are full of career criminals.. not fishing and hunting violators. Its just the way it is. There is not room to keep everyone in jail who belongs there...

[Arctic]

True enough. Hardly any folks convicted of fish and game violations would/should do time in prison, but if there was a mandatory minimum sentence, such as mandatory forfeiture of firearms, boats, etc, and a lifetime ban from hunting or fishing for REPEAT or SEVERE violations, folks might think harder before they commit them.

[Red Miller]

Maybe Im way off base here or maybe I have been misinformed for years, but when I was learning about hunting and fishing, I was taught that if you were busted violating a game law, the game warden could comfiscate your gun, your knife, your fishing rod, your boat, your truck, and even the shirt off your back. Anything you used to illegally take that fish or game. If thats not really the case, maybe it should be. Cheaper than locking up the losers.

[waterbound]

Red, things may have changed but the case used to be that COs would confiscate property. One example would be a situation where a poacher is shining deer from his truck: the deer poached, the rifle and ammunition in the rifle, the truck and anything involved in processing the deer such as knives would be confiscated. I don't know what the law is now, but I believe that it is up to the Officer's discretion to confiscate the firearm of hunters using bait.

[CANOPY SAM]

I appreciate each of your input on this topic. Perhaps my lead wasn't very clear. I'm talking about public volunteerism. Not busy bodies, or hawks. Just folks like us watching from time to time - and a soft public marketing campaign to let everyone know there are more people watching.

Perhaps, when we hear that late shot, 10 or 15 minutes after shooting hours have legally ended, we check out who took the shot? Maybe we just ask a group of hunters how many birds they've actually dropped out there? How bout' we just count how many fish those two guys have dropped in their livewell, and gently remind them if they're "over limit", while we continue to fish. Do you call TIP when you come across unregistered bear baiting stations? Do you call TIP when you harvest a deer full of corn in an area where there's no corn for 20 miles around?

It's really no different than a true neighborhood crime watch. The offenders, knowing that there are more eyes watching, and more ears listening, are less likely to offend in the first place. It works.

The group wouldn't need patches or hats or anything to indicate they were snitches. They'd simply be an anonymous group of hunters and anglers out in the field for the soul purpose of deturing wildlife crimes.

I'm not suggesting that anyone would be on the State's payroll, or any other payroll for that matter. Hence the word, volunteer. It's really only a matter of psychology and marketing.

If your kids misbehave what do you tell them? "I'll be watching you!" But do we really keep an eye on them constantly? The fact that they know you MIGHT be watching is usually enough to detur them from doing anything too destructive. Psychology at work!

The input by Tom is truly informative. It's pretty discouraging to know that our judicial system is so overburdened that they'll simply lump together all the big cases in an effort to plow thru them more quickly.

I'm also not talking about making new laws. But I certainly wouldn't be opposed to stiffer fines and penalties for ALL game and fish violations - not just big game.

I've seen out-of-state cases (non-residents breaking the law in MN) where the offenders knew the fines were so minimal that they kept coming back, even after they were caught once, because it was more lucrative to keep overfishing and risk getting caught. It's just sad.

Now if the state were charging $150-$250 bills for every fish over the limit I think people would be more hesitant to fill up the boat. This alone could potentially increase game and fish revenue.

I wonder too if the economy has anything to do with the increase in violations over the last few years? People resort to desperate measures during desperate times.

Why would we have to increase license fees, or any fees for the average outdoorsman? Why would we imprison game and fish violators? Why not just fine em' so hard they'll never even think of doing it again. Take away their hunting and fishing priveledges for a couple years and let em' think about their mistake while their friends are out on the lake. Money talks.

I stated that there would likely not be any additional funding allocated to game and fish, or DNR. They're already woefully understaffed. This goes without saying.

I'm only suggesting that we band together to protect our resources, be good stewards of this land and it's bounty, and help the DNR to be more efficient at their job. Neighborhood crime watch programs WORK. We only have to be willing to do what's right. TIP just doesn't seem to be working to well.

It's really disheartening to see so many people jump on the "hang em' high" band wagon on the "poaching" post, yet virtually no one is willing to step up and offer anything that might resolve the problem. I guess I'm not surprised though.

WhiskeyWoods. Thanks for the clarification. Considering the situation it's not surprising that this guy wasn't in line for scholarships to M.I.T.

[CANOPY SAM]

A few of you mentioned that we need to enforce the laws that we already have in place. But what do we do when we don't have enough manpower in the field to enforce those laws?

That's my point. Why not lend a hand?

What did the DNR do when they re-opened the walleye fishery at Upper Red Lake? They had CO's at every landing measuring and counting fish - for several weeks. Do you think this significantly reduced the number of violators that might have otherwise snuck off with a few walleyes over limit, or in the slot? Your darn right it did.

The fact that all those anglers KNEW they were going to get checked made them seriously rethink keeping an extra fish, or one that might have been just over the slot.

I think you get the point. So why not just have a couple hundred good-hearted sportsman do the same thing all over the state thru all our gaming seasons? Again, not being paid, not "getting involved", just watching, and making sure everyone KNOWS you're watching.

[Arctic]

I don't think you will find many folks out there willing to inspect someone's catch or game harvest. That would be an awkward situation. I do think there are some things we can do to cut down on fish and game crimes.

If more sportsman wrote down license plate or boat license numbers and actually took the time to report violations, then we would be ahead of the game.

Trespassers should never get more than one warning. If the land is posted they should get no warning at all, only a surprise visit from the sheriff.

If you are out scouting before deer season and find a bait pile, sprinkle some bleach on it; it will no longer attract deer. A small container of bleach can go a long way and is not hard to carry. The fool who put the bait there will never know the difference, except that he will see few deer.

[Big A]

I dont think your gonna get many people to ALLOW some other hunter or fisherman to inquire about what and how many of what they have in their alleged possession...

That is why Officers are Officers. They wear shiny badges and carry guns. Have patches all over their UNIFORMS to indicate they are the real deal and have authority in that situation. They can tag you. Arrest you. Seize your property.. all kinds of awesome powers afforded by the law.

You have a great idea and your heart is in the right place. But your walking along a dangerous path...

Be a good witness. take down as much information as possible. And pass it on to those who are trained and qualified to handle the rest of it.

A "neighborhood watch" is designed to do just that. WATCH. and call the police when you see something suspicious. Not get involved.

[Red Miller]

Im afraid I am going to have to agree with BA and Arctic on this one. CS, your heart is in the right place and people who violate PO all of us. But...when I am on the ice or water the only people looking in my bucket or live well are either invited to do so or they are wearing a badge. Thats just how it is. Too many snoops and trollers out there looking for a place to squat.

[Musky Buck]

The hard part is we can't in our area stop who and how the deer are tagged or if they are tagged. A group next to us took quite a few deer rifle hunting yet all of them were muzzleloading this weekend so who's tagging those rifle deer ? How did they manage to "save" their tags ?

[Musky Buck]

Not talking NYM frosty, talking where my dad lives. There's lots of gutpiles from rifle and they were all out this weekend again so my dad skipped deer season altogether, he was 1 of the 10,000 from prior to all-season tags, he can't hunt in any sort of peace and quiet anymore so he's done.

[MUSKY18]

I agree with both sides of this discussion, which i guess is kind of like kissing your sister? You have to take into consideration the amount of land and waters out there that the CO's have to patrol, and the cost of doing so. But here is another thing....I work fulltime at Camp Ripley, which is where the CO's do all of their training. There are many days when the majority of the CO's are here taking classes up new laws, recertifying with combatives, guns, etc. So that takes even more time away from their ability to be out finding the bad dudes. Our only way to help them is to take as much information down for them as possible and put it in their hands. They have been trained for this and know what can/should be done as opposed to what is the wrong way to handle it. On the other hand.....when they do catch law breakers....FINE THEM TO DEATH!!! LIke was said....100 bucks a fish over the limit....you bet. I was at a resort two summers ago, where 3 guys found the crappie bite and were taking between 2 and 3 limits, per angler, per day! Resort owner kicked them out when he found out and called the CO! I left before I found out what happened, but what if they paid 100 per fish over. Some pretty good revenue. Plus, confiscate all of their equipment, boat, truck, etc. and sell it off at public auction, turn around and put that money into the fund to help enforce the laws.