Lead jigs banned??

[mainbutter]

First of all, is there a credible source telling us that these lead weights or jigs are bad for the ecosystem of the lake? It sounds bad, but where is the data?

Second, is there a better alternative (remember the solution could be worse than the problem)?

Third, are the people that are pushing for a ban living by their words? Mainbutter have you got rid of all your lead?

There are some reports on the toxicity and affects of lead introduced to waterways, not hard to find 'em googling around.

Please note I did not say I support a ban, "banning" anything goes against my conscience, but I think we should support no-lead fishing just as much as we support CPR. I have gotten rid of all of my lead jigs, about a year and a half ago. I haven't found a suitable replacement yet I like just as well, but am always looking. Mostly that means that I haven't fished jigs the past two seasons, but that's fine since just about everything I've done lately has been lead-less spoons, spinners, and crankbaits.

I think it's completely unreasonable for anyone to think that american fishing can go completely lead-less overnight. However we can't ignore the fact that just about everyone who fishes is throwing around toxic heavy metals into the land and water we have so much fun on.

I just hate to see people who think that lead is completely harmless. It's easy to have that belief though because it's been so intrinsic to fishing and hunting for centuries.

[TonkaBass]

I have read studies before on this topic. They have their points, but like I have always said... There are probably more loons being killed by beginning duck hunters each year than loons killed by ingesting lead ever.

Everybody knows lead is a poison. Everybody knows that is deadly if eaten. Some topics brought up, mercury for one, have no relevance to lead fishing tackle other than the fact that they are both metals. Mercury in lakes and rivers comes from the atmosphere, not tackle boxes.

My main thing is this... loons grab gravel off the bottom to help digest their food. They dont target lead because the "developed a taste" for it. This is probably the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I guess that is why they had to say this evidence is not evidence, it's "circumstanial".

Maybe they should outlaw guns... Heck guns kill people!!!

[TonkaBass]

This argument seems about as valid as Shimano having to put a lead warning on there boxes... Wouldn't want anyone chewing on the brass gears which contain trace amounts of lead. This whole lead thing has gotten out of hand imo.

[alg]

Check this out. You asked for evidence.

http://www.pca.state.mn.us/oea/reduce/radomski2006.pdf

[nofishfisherman]

My main thing is this... loons grab gravel off the bottom to help digest their food. They dont target lead because the "developed a taste" for it. This is probably the dumbest thing I have ever heard.I guess that is why they had to say this evidence is not evidence, it's "circumstanial".

Where is your evidence? If you want the other side to prove their statements I feel its only fair that our statements should have to pass the same test. Stating something as fact doesn't automatically make it true.

So far i have one study with circumstantial evidence on one side and one random guys "opinion" on the other side. Now which one deserves more credibility?

[DTro]

Check this out. You asked for evidence.

http://www.pca.state.mn.us/oea/reduce/radomski2006.pdf

All that tells me is that we've lost a lot of sinkers in the past 25 years.

Even the study itself suggests that further evaluation is needed.

Where is all that lead now? Is it still there? Is it buried 15 feet under the bottom?

I'm sure a lot of us fall in the same category, I'll even go out on a limb and say the majority feel the same way. Give us something comparable in performance and price and we'll switch in a heartbeat.

[Chode2235]

I am surprised that nothing with this has happened sooner. How long ago did they ban lead shot for waterfowl hunting? If my memory serves me well that had a very positive impact on the waterfowl.

I dont want to replace all my tackle in my jig box, but wouldnt mind doing it over a number of years. The DNR or someone should set a goal of 2020 to be rid of all lead jigs. That would give the manufactures a number of years to re-tool and really get the mass production advantages we enjoy today.

[Tyler23]

Give us something comparable in performance and price and we'll switch in a heartbeat.

[TMF89]

Amen. I can see it in a few years, but anglers are not well enough stocked, and neither are the stores that supply them. The ban would result and dramatic losses in fishing across the state.

[TonkaBass]

Originally Posted By: TonkaBass

My main thing is this... loons grab gravel off the bottom to help digest their food. They dont target lead because the "developed a taste" for it. This is probably the dumbest thing I have ever heard.I guess that is why they had to say this evidence is not evidence, it's "circumstanial".

Where is your evidence? If you want the other side to prove their statements I feel its only fair that our statements should have to pass the same test. Stating something as fact doesn't automatically make it true.

So far i have one study with circumstantial evidence on one side and one random guys "opinion" on the other side. Now which one deserves more credibility?

I didn't ask anyone to proove any statements, just let my opinion out. And generally a fact is true, just to let you know.

I for one don't believe that wild birds, through evolution, somehow prefer to eat poison. Sure you could train a swan to eat a lead wieght over a rock, but you would probably have to reinforce it for a long, long time to make it do that. This guy claims, because he is Mr. Super Biologist! that his opinion is that they like to eat lead. hmmmmmmm, ok.

IMPORTANT! THE FOLLOWING IS NOT A SCIENTIFIC STUDY! IT IS "ONE RANDOM GUYS 'OPINION'"

How many sinkers and jigs are on the bottom of a given lake??? Do they take up every square inch of the bottom??? Is lead a light material that will not sink and settle into the earth??? Has the loon population decreased or the waterfowl population dropped because of this??? I don't think so, not in the slightest. I don't want to see one penny of my tax dollars go into putting the ink on the page of the MN fishing regs prohibiting lead tackle. I wouldn't break the law, but I don't see a need for it to change. This has been of debate for a long time, and still there is no reports that validate this new law. I want to know how many loons died last year from ingesting lead fishing tackle! Then I want to know how many loons died of other causes. Might as well throw in the loons on the imaginary endangered species list.

[Sandmannd]

I have a problem with everyone screamin' for evidence. If you show a study showing your part of the argument, I can find ten others on google in five minutes that disprove it and vise versa.

I think we all know lead is bad for birds, fish, etc. Get the alternative out at a reasonable price and it sell. You can weed the lead out through attrition.

[metrojoe]

I'm sure a lot of us fall in the same category, I'll even go out on a limb and say the majority feel the same way. Give us something comparable in performance and price and we'll switch in a heartbeat.

I participated in one of the lead exchange programs at WaterFest a few years ago. I wanted to see what alternatives were available so I exchanged some lead jigs and split shots. Most of the alternatives were terrible to use. The split shots were so hard they were a one time use. They were considerably lighter so you had to use larger ones or multiple smaller ones to compensate. The only ones I found useful were the jigs that used bismuth and as mentioned above it would cost a guy a small fortune to switch to a bismuth alternative.

[TonkaBass]

just look at the cost of tru tungsten

[BuckKiller]

if you wanna learn more try googling "get the lead out" there are some very interest reads that come up.

[Black_Bay]

Why do lead sinkers and jigs present such a problem?

Loons, having no teeth, ingest their food whole. Consequently they must swallow small pebbles to help grind up the food in their stomachs. Lead sinkers and jigs can be mistaken for small pebbles and eaten by the loons. The sinkers and jigs are ground up in the loon’s stomach and the lead is absorbed into the blood and tissues of the loon, leading to poisoning, (http://www.bsc-eoc.org/loonfact.html). Loons, may also eat fish that have lead fishing gear attached. "In nearly one fourth of the cases of loons with ingested lead, other fishing gear (mostly hooks, swivels and monofilament) was present in the gastrointestinal tracts," (Caldwell 5). Loons may have a craving for lead and therefore seek out and ingest these objects. Evidence for this "is circumstantial, but does exist: a) loons are known to select individual stones, and thus determine which objects are ingested, sinkers found in gastrointestinal tracts appear worn, and none of the jig heads found in gastrointestinal tracts have attached fish hooks, implying that the jig heads had been in the environment long enough for their hooks to rust off, and c) mute swans that have been treated for lead toxicosis and then released, are known to have a high lead ingestion recurrence rate, which implies that the swans may have developed a taste for lead objects," (Caldwell 5).

Hmm I doubt that the other fishing gear, like mono, swivels and especially hooks, did the birds any good. In fact they probably had a more immediate impact on the birds than lead.

As far as having a craving for lead, I think that is a load of bull and should not have been included in this article. That statement would have never made it through correct peer review for an actual scientific publication. Loons do, however and as they state, choose specific rocks. That is more likely based on size and shape and not that they can tell the difference in content of the object. They would most likely choose a similar size and shape piece of bismuth, steel, plastic or any material for that matter.

[TonkaBass]

agreed.

[south_metro_fish]

They need to try and do this on a larger scale if it is going to get done. Limiting it from a few lakes in a few states is not going to work to well. The tackle company's are still going to have a business selling the cheaper lead in areas that still allow it making less lead free options for the band areas and probably making it more expensive. If they are going to do something like this they need to try and in force it every where.

[TMF89]

The problem with doing a wide scale ban is that the tackle companies aren't equipped for it. Neither are the anglers. How long would it take to switch over to eco-friendly jigs for companies? A few weeks? A few months? And most anglers would have to completely re-stock their tackle box. Neither of those options are good considering the economy right now.

[south_metro_fish]

I couldn't agree more. I was just putting out some of the factors that would have to go into a banned like this. I think it has a place in the future and need to be looked at but not rushed into. Lead has been in the spotlight a lot lately and most of it has to do with China, but this just seems like another place for someone to try and get on the band wagon and think they might get something pushed through with all the news coverage about lead. I don't disagree it has some negative effects on the environment, but they don't have enough evidence to make a drastic change or it probably would have already been done.

[metro fisherman]

I would have to say that if they ban lead and there isnt a near-cost alternative i would bootleg my jigs from Canada.

[alg]

Here's more "evidence". You'll note they did not "sink" in the bottom.

Re: Park Service Bans Lead [Re: magnum mike]

jonny_redhorse

Sr IceLeaders Family

Registered: 04/30/04

Posts: 2047

Loc: Hibbing MN USA

Never really thinking of it untill I came on this post/discussion.....I fished the "Namakan Reservoir"(Sand Point Lake, Grassy Bay) since the early 70's and remember one particular year(mid 70's) when the water level was down tremendously(about 5+ feet if I recall do to the opening and closing of the dams on the lakes) exposing the bottom rocks that ordinarily would be water covered about 10'-20'and even more in shallower bays, out from shore in areas, ...the big "thing" in those years was the use of the"Lindy Rig"...I remember taking an old coffee can in Grassy Bay(starting in front of my campsite) and filling it 2 times...yes 2 times!....I only walked the shoreline for about 500 yards to fill these 2 cans... the majority of the items were the lead Lindy sinkers of different colors but mostly just unpainted.....there was also dare devil spoons,hooks,many split shot sinkers, spinners, etc, but the primary item was those Lindy lead sinkers...I "reused" alot of those sinkers and had em for years afterword ...Only now do I reaize he impact of the lead in the waters and after reading these findings and posts, and see the concern that the Forest Service(State and Federal) have.....Yes 16 tons is probably an underestimate of whats in those waters....Pros or cons I will certainly be up in the Voyageurs Park in the future...still a beautiful piece of Minnesota...Glad we were fortunate to possess it rather than Canada....

[upnorth]

That would depend on the bottom content. Rocky, or gravel, no it ain't gonna sink, muck, yep, sandy maybe or get covered up over time.

[djlong]

If sinkers sink into the ground, what is stopping them from getting into the water table? Just a thought..

[DTro]

I could be wrong, but I don't think solid state lead leaches any harmful chemicals. If it did, a ban would've happened a LONG time ago.

[upnorth]

If that was the case even if they didn't sink it would be an issue. I really don't think that would be the case.