Trophy Hunters, Friend or Foe?

[96trigger]

Quote:

But a family of four that has only one person hunting,and both bowhunts and riflehunts has to shoot a doe or most of the time a button buck with each weapon to shoot a buck again with each weapon.

I reread your post and understand whay you are saying, if that is the case, he should just be done after bow season. No one is making him go both the firearm and archery. If he earns his buck sticker during archery, he can either wait for a buck during archery, or save his sticker for firearm. I don't know why that is a problem, unless of course, he is only hunting for antlers and wants to tag more than one buck a year.

[FISHINGURU]

If we manged deer here in Minnesota the way that it has been suggested on this post in order to achieve the goal of larger and more mature bucks, wouldn't the MN DNR be forced to implement some sort of earn-a-buck system? If there were all of these monster bucks walking around the woods, would anyone shoot a doe? I doubt it.

well why would they all wait for a monster buck when they could fill a tag and get their meat? you can't eat the horns and doe's come much easier....now all of a sudden the meat hunters would hold out for big bucks cause there is more around when the whole argument is they hunt for the freezer?

so basically they don't want to have to go through the change and maybe not get as many deer for a couple years....but if there's big bucks more frequently now they have the patience to wait..even know you can't eat horns and old bucks taste gross?

you guys talkin about your kids...imagine if this was already in place years ago and now your kid would have a better chance at getting a big buck.

[Big Dave2]

Quote:

well why would they all wait for a monster buck when they could fill a tag and get their meat? you can't eat the horns and doe's come much easier....now all of a sudden the meat hunters would hold out for big bucks cause there is more around when the whole argument is they hunt for the freezer?

so basically they don't want to have to go through the change and maybe not get as many deer for a couple years....but if there's big bucks more frequently now they have the patience to wait..even know you can't eat horns and old bucks taste gross?

you guys talkin about your kids...imagine if this was already in place years ago and now your kid would have a better chance at getting a big buck.

[archerystud]

But you are telling me that the majority of hunters want to shoot big bucks. If this is true why would a trophy hunter ever shoot a doe especially if in an area where you are only allowed 1 deer and if there were no party hunting. Would you shoot a doe ever? I doubt it. Then the doe to buck population would be even more lopsided. By what you are stating, us good 'ole meat hunters would be the only ones ever taking does and we are the minority, right?

Well I consider myself a trophy hunter and I'm glad to take a doe. I've shot way more does than bucks over the last 10 years that's for sure. Fill a freezer with a doe and hold out for a buck is typically what I do.

When did MN disallow party hunting anyway?

[FISHINGURU]

well a hunter would have to shoot a doe if there was EAB..regaurdless if they are a meat hunter or a mature whitetail hunter.

it would be safe to say the majority of hunters in MN are meat hunters anyway..although everyone would love to shoot a mature buck...mature buck hunters are in no way more common then your average deer hunter...so there would be plenty of people still shooting doe's even if there was no EAB.

so there would be nothing making anything more lopsided...its impossible.

the point of this conversation is our point that the majority of hunters shoot the first thing they see...which in most cases is the immature bucks... which makes the herd lopsided and doesn't let bucks live to a mature age.

no one said you want your kid to get a big buck right away...but any kid would have more fun out hunting knowing he has a better chance to get a big buck...anyone for that matter.

you act like if there was some sort of system put in place boone and crockets would be running all over the place and everyone gets to shoot big bucks...its not like that....even in places where they let little bucks walk and shoot doe's for meat and for herd management and also have food plots you still have to hunt hard for a true bruiser...in the movies them guys sit for a week straight from sun up to sun down and don't even fill their tags...its not like you go sit for a couple hours and have booners all around ya.

you'd still see tons of immature buck...even more since they would be somehow protected or harder to be able to shoot them...the only thing is you would see more bigger average size deer cause they would be aloud to get older....that would be MY accomplishment...and the whole point of the conversation.

i'm happy if everyone has a better chance at bigger bucks..i'm not an elite hunter that wants to shoot all the big bucks to myself...i want the herd to be how it should be and let immature bucks get older.

no matter what the average size of bucks are around there are still the special ones as you put it...the small ones would be bigger..the medium ones would be bigger...and the special ones would be bigger.

[96trigger]

I would probably be happier than my kid if he shot a big buck right away. I'm pretty sure that would get him hooked immediately. Every young student that I have ever taught that shot a nice buck early, got hooked and I believe, is still hunting today. Why someone wouldn't want there child to shoot a big buck is beyond me. I'd let my kid have a crack at a bruiser. Might actually get him. I don't think he'd be disappointed, he might even learn to let the little bucks walk.

BD2, I am having a hard time following what you are saying. I don't know which direction you are headed. I also hunt hard for a trophy buck, but that is not all that I shoot. I have shot over 25 deer in the past 18 years, only 5 have been bucks, only one has been mature. Over the past 5 years, I have really changed my way of thinking about the bucks I shoot even though I am hunting alot of state land.

Also, you keep throwing in the one deer limit. If MN was "forced to go to Earn a Buck" as you say there would obviously not be a one deer limit, more likely a 5 deer limit. EAB has been, and would be instituted in areas to reduce an overpopulation, not for buck management. EAB would be the wrong move in MN, as would any restrictions in any area other than a Intensive Harvest. I'd hate to see that go to EAB. I don't see that many deer.

[Big Dave2]

I would probably be happier than my kid if he shot a big buck right away. I'm pretty sure that would get him hooked immediately. Every young student that I have ever taught that shot a nice buck early, got hooked and I believe, is still hunting today. Why someone wouldn't want there child to shoot a big buck is beyond me. I'd let my kid have a crack at a bruiser. Might actually get him. I don't think he'd be disappointed, he might even learn to let the little bucks walk.

BD2, I am having a hard time following what you are saying. I don't know which direction you are headed. I also hunt hard for a trophy buck, but that is not all that I shoot. I have shot over 25 deer in the past 18 years, only 5 have been bucks, only one has been mature. Over the past 5 years, I have really changed my way of thinking about the bucks I shoot even though I am hunting alot of state land.

Also, you keep throwing in the one deer limit. If MN was "forced to go to Earn a Buck" as you say there would obviously not be a one deer limit, more likely a 5 deer limit. EAB has been, and would be instituted in areas to reduce an overpopulation, not for buck management. EAB would be the wrong move in MN, as would any restrictions in any area other than a Intensive Harvest. I'd hate to see that go to EAB. I don't see that many deer.

That's Ok, I am sure that I am hard to follow. I am certainly not a professional writer!

But I also can't follow some of you guys either because in one post I am told that I should just shoot 1 deer and that party hunting should be outlawed, then in another, you are telling me that there should be a 5 deer limit.

I also think that you guys miss my point on the fact that the bigger the bucks that you have the bigger that you will want. Read the outdoor news, we already have some bruisers in this state. If thats what you want go find them. Its just like Walleye fishing. Should every lake hold an abundance of 10 lb walleyes? I doubt that would work out. And if every lake did hold lots of them, how big of an accomplishment would it be to catch one?

All I am saying is that I am not for any more restrictions then we already have. The only thing I probably wouldn't complain too much about is if the gun season was moved back, because I couldn't care less when I hunt. I'm just not for antler restrictions or abolishing party hunting, or earn-a-buck either as far as that goes.

[Big Dave2]

When did MN disallow party hunting anyway?

soon, if this bunch gets it's way

[MUSKYMAN1011]

No more party Hutin!

No more feeding the deer!

No more grunt calls!

No more Doe urine!

No more shooting bucks unless they go 150 or better!

$1.000.00 fine if you shoot one that goes under 150!

[archerystud]

But I also can't follow some of you guys either because in one post I am told that I should just shoot 1 deer and that party hunting should be outlawed, then in another, you are telling me that there should be a 5 deer limit.

[Big Dave2]

I'm not looking for monster whitetails and I'd never expect to shoot one every year. Some areas of the state are good for trophies but IMO most of the state is not. My land taxes (real close to where BD2 lives actually) are jumping up again and all I use the land for is hunting. In five years of owning the land I haven't seen a 125 inch buck down there by me, my hunting party or any of my cameras. All I'm asking is to catch one on that property every 3-5 years.

I'd just like to see this state get more P&Y minimum white tail bucks, they don't have to be monsters.

I see what you are saying, but I guess I could ask, why do you own land there then? Why not buy land down in SE Minnesota or Wisconsin if you want it to be a trophy whitetail factory?

If I owned a lake shore lot on Lake O'Dowd should I expect it to have the same population of large walleyes, small mouth and muskies as Mille Lacs? No, that would be preposterous. If I want to fish big walleyes then I need to go to another lake. If I want numbers of small crappies and sunnies with a few northerns and bass mixed in then I am in the right place. Every area has it's strong suits. SE Minnesota seems to do just fine producing trophy white tails with our current regulations. Maybe the rest of the state isn't suited for producing such a population of large antlered deer?

[Big Dave2]

No more party Hutin!

No more feeding the deer!

No more grunt calls!

No more Doe urine!

No more shooting bucks unless they go 150 or better!

$1.000.00 fine if you shoot one that goes under 150!

How about elevated stands and gun scopes?

[MUSKYMAN1011]

Elevated stands are OK ! Yes

Gun scopes?? thats a tough call, the Jury is still out.

[Bear55]

Originally Posted By: archerystud

I'm not looking for monster whitetails and I'd never expect to shoot one every year. Some areas of the state are good for trophies but IMO most of the state is not. My land taxes (real close to where BD2 lives actually) are jumping up again and all I use the land for is hunting. In five years of owning the land I haven't seen a 125 inch buck down there by me, my hunting party or any of my cameras. All I'm asking is to catch one on that property every 3-5 years.

I'd just like to see this state get more P&Y minimum white tail bucks, they don't have to be monsters.

I see what you are saying, but I guess I could ask, why do you own land there then? Why not buy land down in SE Minnesota or Wisconsin if you want it to be a trophy whitetail factory?

If I owned a lake shore lot on Lake O'Dowd should I expect it to have the same population of large walleyes, small mouth and muskies as Mille Lacs? No, that would be preposterous. If I want to fish big walleyes then I need to go to another lake. If I want numbers of small crappies and sunnies with a few northerns and bass mixed in then I am in the right place. Every area has it's strong suits. SE Minnesota seems to do just fine producing trophy white tails with our current regulations. Maybe the rest of the state isn't suited for producing such a population of large antlered deer?

Actually I would say most of the state is well suited to grow large deer. A lot of people feel that their area can't grow nice bucks but all they need is a little time. Sure they may not be record book deer but I think if they get to the proper age just about any buck out there is going to be a trophy to someone. Sure their might be some genetic freaks with small racks but I think they are few and far between. I spend most of my time in the bigwoods and I think we all know there are some big bucks up there. However there also isn't much for agriculture or highly nutritional food, so how do these deer get so big? The answer is age, they have enough remote land that some of them make it through rifle season.

[groundswatter]

Setting the record straight.In any eab unit you have to shoot a doe before you shoot a buck.If you want to shoot a buck with a bow you have to shoot a doe first.If you want to shoot a buck with the rifle you can either not shoot a buck with your bow and use that doe you shot with your bow as eab.But if you want to shoot 2 bucks one with each weapon then you have to shoot 2 does

[ikatcher]

i hunted the big woods, west of deer river for 12 yrs. in all those yrs most of the bucks we shot were spikes or forks. we did get a handful that were heavy but short on height and width. i doubt the biggest one maybe would have made p&y. i then started hunting out by litchfield and hunted out there for 10 yrs. with a smaller party we shot no less then 10 that would have made p&y and 2 that were 170 class bucks. the one big differnce was in all those yrs in litchfield i never saw a spike and we took one fork, all the other younger bucks went right to small sixes and eights. i don't believe the north woods can produce regularly true trophys. i know there are some but they are few and far between.the weight of deer were similar. anyone have any thoughts on this. was it just the area i hunted up north or is it more common to have smaller racks in the big woods?

[FISHINGURU]

some people need to do some research on Quality Deer Management or(QDM).

why should people have to go to other places or states to get big bucks when we could do quality deer managment here? why does there have to be laws before people are willing to give it a try?

you up north people that own land why don't you make food plots to bring deer to your land and start your own QDM? age, nutrition, genetics and habitat make big bucks...i know this state has awesome genetics and habitat..but some areas lack in letting the deer get old enough or not enough nutrition...it would be the first thing i did if i owned land.

pass on small bucks and shoot does for the freezer and encourage your neighbors or near by land owners to do the same.

the goal of QDM is not just to produce mature bucks but to produce biologically and socially balanced deer herds.. this means well balanced age and sex ratios and a population that is well within what the habitat can support....achieving this involves protecting younger bucks and harvesting an adequate number of female deer.

by reducing their numbers we can adjust sex ratios toward a more natural level and bring population down to what the habitat can support..one result is that remaining deer are much more healthier and the rut is more compacted and intense...older bucks do most of the breeding and fawns are born at optimal time for survival.

so why shoot immature bucks and not harvest does for the freezer? why not do your part and harvest a doe for QDM and hold off for a big buck and let the little ones walk?

why is it most "trophy" hunters say they either take a doe right away and wait for a big buck or hunt for only a big buck until the end then harvest a doe? mainly because they are the most educated on this and have done the research....sorry guys but its the truth...its just the right thing to do.

[Hoyt4]

Not everyone will win like little kids t-ball.Not all will get trophys.We can make things better for the deer herd but you can not put restrictions on antlers.If you want to let that deer walk that's your choice and there is nothing wrong with that.Just watching Babe W. right now he is hunting Kansas I did not know they could bait.Do you think this should be done in MN?

[96trigger]

Quote:

Do you think this should be done in MN?

that is topic on a whole other thread, please keep it there.

[kr8r.tom]

theres not one county in this state that couldn't produce a boone and crockett deer. they just need a chance to live to reach their potential. obviously some areas are better than others and if your buck harvest is 80% 1.5 year old bucks year after year your going to [PoorWordUsage] off all the does because they don't have any mature bucks to breed with, they're stuck with 2 second forky with a stupid look on his face. Anyone notice outdoor news hasn't even had a full page of the best buck contest yet, usually have a page in the first issue after rifle season starts.

[TimR]

so why shoot immature bucks and not harvest does for the freezer? why not do your part and harvest a doe for QDM and hold off for a big buck and let the little ones walk?

[FISHINGURU]

laugh it up...i'm sure the biologist, wildlife managers and people that have been studying deer herds and behavior for years are full of it lol.

you can still have a high population of deer but just managed to be a more even sex ratio with a nice buck size average..

weren't people just talking about how wisconsin has alot of deer but no one would shoot does cause they all want bucks? now everything is all whack and they have to put EAB in place to force people to shoot does? there's a reason they want you to shoot them does.

each adult doe will have 2-3 fawns...half of those fawns will be female...them fawns will breed and have their own fawns and the original mother of the first 2-3 fawns will have 2-3 more fawns the next year ect, ect...out of the little fawn bucks most of them will be shot by the age 1 1/2....its easy to see how the ratio gets so lopsided...especially in areas where people don't want to shoot does.

the trick is to get meat hunters to try and not shoot immature bucks as often and get the "trophy" hunters to still take does.

[Coach1310]

laugh it up...i'm sure the biologist, wildlife managers and people that have been studying deer herds and behavior for years are full of it lol.

you can still have a high population of deer but just managed to be a more even sex ratio with a nice buck size average.....

the trick is to get meat hunters to try and not shoot immature bucks as often and get the "trophy" hunters to still take does.

My question is... IF MN were regulated/managed/whatever, what would the average "Joe Hunter" gain from a more balanced population OTHER than a better chance at a bigger buck?

[FISHINGURU]

why's it all about the average "joe hunter"? the regs have been catered to the average "joe hunter" for a long time.

remember slot limits for fishing? you know how everyone whined when they were put into place but after a couple years everyone sees the purpose of it?

i have some good news

[Bear55]

i hunted the big woods, west of deer river for 12 yrs. in all those yrs most of the bucks we shot were spikes or forks. we did get a handful that were heavy but short on height and width. i doubt the biggest one maybe would have made p&y. i then started hunting out by litchfield and hunted out there for 10 yrs. with a smaller party we shot no less then 10 that would have made p&y and 2 that were 170 class bucks. the one big differnce was in all those yrs in litchfield i never saw a spike and we took one fork, all the other younger bucks went right to small sixes and eights. i don't believe the north woods can produce regularly true trophys. i know there are some but they are few and far between.the weight of deer were similar. anyone have any thoughts on this. was it just the area i hunted up north or is it more common to have smaller racks in the big woods?

In my experience the bigwoods deer can be a year behind their farmland cousins unless they have great genetics. Most 1.5 year old deer I see are spikes, forks and amll sixes. I'm not sure I have ever seem a 1.5 year old 8 pointer in the bigwoods but I'm sure there are a few around. What these deer lack in nutrition they can make up in time with age, in the area I hunt I have seen several deer taken between 125-150 and know of a couple of 170's but they are very rare. There is no doubt that the bigwoods is not going to produce true trophies on a regular basis but it is capable of producing some really nice deer. For the average hunter on public land a 120 deer is huge and I think that if you let those bucks grow most of them will easily hit that mark and many will exceed it.