Trophy Hunters, Friend or Foe?

[Swill]

I will let the 2007 buck harvest data speak for itself. Look at links to these maps. MN has far fewer bucks per square mile. In fact, our highest zone only goes to 2.7-4.3.

mn deer buck harvest 2007 per square mile

Now look at WI?

WI 2007 buck harvest per square mile

Theirs goes up to 4.3 -7.4 with multiple zones that are 2.0 - 3.0 and 3.1 to 4.2

I know, stats are just that stats. But they don't lie.

there is a lot more interesting data on both sites too. I would have posted them, but who wants to read a book

[FISHINGURU]

well there's gonna be loop holes in any law...just like the party hunting...people are morons if they pick up roadkill to use as their EAB lol...your not even a hunter if you do stuff like that...them are the same kind of people that bend or break any law...why don't they just go register a fake deer? the register stations i go to don't even come out to look at your deer.

the harvest #'s might be down where there is EAB but i wonder if the doe harvest #'s are up? which would be a good thing if the buck to doe ratio is lopsided. i wonder if alot hunters just get their doe then kinda give up on their buck since they already got some venny? are the actually #'s of hunters up or down in the EAB areas? it sure would suck to have a huge buck in front of ya and you couldn't shoot it because you haven't got a doe yet though lol.

if your a kid or a new hunter you'd be happy with anything...a deer is a deer right? i know my first deer i ever shot was a doe with a bow and i was stoked.

i know EAB would make me shoot a doe on the first day so i could get that out of my way and now hunt for my buck...almost all mature buck hunters would then take a doe asap..which would help even out the buck to doe ratio.

another thing about a more even ratio is the bucks actually have to go out and search for available doe's...the more they'd have to search the more we'd see...most bucks around here don't have to go any further then over the next ridge to find a family of doe's....if people had chances to see more bucks then they'd be more willing to pass on smaller bucks.

calling, rattling, decoying, ect, would all work way better and would make that type of hunting way more fun for people...i love the agressive tactics the way it is but it could be much better.

i'm not really for or against law changes or restrictions i just know things could be better and if there's changes that could make things better i'd be willing to do what it takes.

in the meantime all people can do is express their opinions and shoot around ideas and concerns...i think everyone see's where everyone else is coming from on either side.

[Black_Bay]

I will let the 2007 buck harvest data speak for itself. Look at links to these maps. MN has far fewer bucks per square mile. In fact, our highest zone only goes to 2.7-4.3.

mn deer buck harvest 2007 per square mile

Now look at WI?

WI 2007 buck harvest per square mile

Theirs goes up to 4.3 -7.4 with multiple zones that are 2.0 - 3.0 and 3.1 to 4.2

I know, stats are just that stats. But they don't lie.

there is a lot more interesting data on both sites too. I would have posted them, but who wants to read a book

What are you trying to say Swill? Those numbers mean nothing by themselves. All they say is more bucks were shot in Wisconsin. They say nothing about the size or age of the deer. I could interpret them as saying Minnesota hunters are shooting fewer bucks and therefore passing on smaller ones.

[Black_Bay]

According to Wisconsin's DNR site they only use earn a buck in deer management units if it has had at least two years of consecutive herd control or earn a buck seasons, which failed to reduce the population to near goal and if another non-EAB season is not likely to do so.

Earn a buck isn't used there as a way to get bigger bucks, which is the topic of this thread.

[nolte]

Black Bay, you are correct on EAB. But the spin off effect is that some people are less likely to pull the trigger once they get a deer in the freezer.

The big key IF (or assumption) on those types of season structures is to have an accurate population estimate. Which is extremely tough to do across an entire management unit. For instance two seasons ago there were lots of antlerless deer in the zone we hunt in WI, but you had to buy a normal deer tag. Last year it was herd control, which it should have been. As it should have been the year before when it was a regular unit. This year it was herd control again, when there is NO way it should have been. I've got no idea what sort of count they used, but they should scrap it. Next year if they "count" is high it could go to EAB, but from my experiences it should go back to a normal unit with limited antlerless tags available.

[Swill]

True, nothing on size or age; but they still are killing more bucks then MN hunters. And passing on smaller ones in MN? In the brown it is down capital on the midwest? Ummm sure that is what is happening.

[Swill]

not sure where you hunt nolte, but here was last years estimated fall population. From the WI DNR web site, they record population levels 3 times a year.

map

http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/wildlife/hunt/deer/fall_abund.htm

[Coach1310]

Originally Posted By: Coach1310

Originally Posted By: Bear55

However, times are changing and more and more people are tired of the same old school deer management. Moving the gun season back and eliminating party hunting are two small steps that are going to save a lot of bucks and help balance the age structure. ......

Why is it all everyone ever talks about is moving the gun season. I'll hunt no matter when it is, BUT if you move the gun season later, you will have less participation. Every season that has a poor weather opener, the hunter numbers are down. If you move it back, to say this week, the DNR would sell a lot less licenses. Also, there are parts of MN that don't hold much, if any deer once the crops are completely harvested or the forage is covered with snow. This leads to more ground being worthless, in turn leading to more pressure on other hunting areas. Lastly, if we are for moving the gun season to protect more bucks, then I say we close the bow season for that time as well. No hunting means the bucks are protected. Moving the gun season sure sounds like catering to the bow hunters to me.

Look at Wisconsin & Michigan, their gun seasons open later in the year an both states have far more hunters than us. I would hate to think that hunters from MI and WI are a tougher breed of men and women to be able to handle the weather. I am not buying the worthless ground argument either, the deer might be on different food sources a little later in the season but they don't move completely out of an area. It may seem that way now but is because they have been highly pressured during rifle seaons so the smart ones hunker down.

First off, you are right Michigan and Wisconsin have more hunters than we do, but in Michigan roughly 6.7% of the population hunts. In Minnesota the number is 9.6%. Michigan has about twice as many people so you can't just compare the number of licenses sold. However, both states lag far behind Wisconsin which is about 15% of the population buying licenses.

As far as the "worthless ground" argument. You must have little experience in farm country. Areas that contain a high percentage of crop land and a low percentage of timber/set aside areas have a very hard time holding deer after the crops are gone and like you mentioned once pressure is applied it gets worse.

[FISHINGURU]

Earn a buck isn't used there as a way to get bigger bucks, which is the topic of this thread.

what is the purpose of EAB?

[Hoyt4]

Maybe baiting has a lot to do with better success rates.MN it's not legal.But I think Michigan,Wisconsin,Canada, you can bait.I'm also saw a show this past weekend with feeders on it saying they where hunting Kansas.Can you bait in Kansas?Just putting something else out there.I would not bait but if legal who knows.I know you have to worry about diasease and other things but maybe bringing in more deer(does) to bait piles helps with the more bucks harvested.

[Big Dave2]

If the doe to buck ratio is so out of wack and the "brown it's down" crew as some of you call it are out there shooting the first deer they see, then wouldn't it make sense that these guys would be harvesting more does than bucks anyway?

[96trigger]

Quote:

If the doe to buck ratio is so out of wack and the "brown it's down" crew as some of you call it are out there shooting the first deer they see, then wouldn't it make sense that these guys would be harvesting more does than bucks anyway?

Yes, and I believe that it is helping. During the 3A season, some areas can apply for doe permits. The number of does seen during 3B has been down since this was introduced, but the number of mature buck sightings has greatly increased. We have to hunt a lot harder for deer. This was the first year in a long time that neither my Dad, or Uncle shot a deer, but I got three, so our average stayed the same. Once again, the DNR got something right.

[kr8r.tom]

i googled "if its brown its down" the answer was: 1-does & fawns and an ocassional chipmunk due to brown its down fever(don't waste that bellie meat) and 2-small antlered deer for small minded people

[Black_Bay]

Originally Posted By: Black_Bay

Earn a buck isn't used there as a way to get bigger bucks, which is the topic of this thread.

what is the purpose of EAB?

Wisconsin uses EAB to reduce the population. It forces everyone to shoot a doe so they have that slim chance at a Boone and Crockett buck all of us are sure is going to appear at any moment. In layman's terms it makes you do something you might not want to order to do something you want to do. Or a better example might be eat your brussel sprouts and then you can have ice cream.

[Pickelfarmer]

i googled "if its brown its down" the answer was: 1-does & fawns and an ocassional chipmunk due to brown its down fever(don't waste that bellie meat) and 2-small antlered deer for small minded people

K tom your so smart , I cant beleave you dont have your own hunting show. I looked up all your posts and I've learned that well.... Nothin. all I got was a bunch of disagreement and smart asss responces.

[kr8r.tom]

when it hits a nerve ....Boy

[Pickelfarmer]

when it hits a nerve ....Boy

Yeah.....BOY

[FISHINGURU]

If the doe to buck ratio is so out of wack and the "brown it's down" crew as some of you call it are out there shooting the first deer they see, then wouldn't it make sense that these guys would be harvesting more does than bucks anyway?

in theory sure...but in reality alot of them doe's are nub bucks and during the rut when shotgun season is alot of deer on the move are immature bucks...the week before shotgun every year i see more immature bucks then doe's or mature bucks.

there's a good chance that the first deer you see is an immature buck....they get kicked out of their family group...they get kicked out of every area by a bigger buck...and they have an urge to breed...they are the animal most on their feet by far.

[Hoyt4]

EAB was put in affect because hunters would not take any does.A lot of these areas had a larger deer herd and needed does taken but most the hunters would not.So that EAB started so they had to take a doe first.I know now they have the problem of hunters in these areas not all but a few grabbing road kill and bringing them in to be registered so they can shoot a buck.

[Big Dave2]

If we manged deer here in Minnesota the way that it has been suggested on this post in order to achieve the goal of larger and more mature bucks, wouldn't the MN DNR be forced to implement some sort of earn-a-buck system? If there were all of these monster bucks walking around the woods, would anyone shoot a doe? I doubt it.

[96trigger]

I think that is the exact problem wisconsin had. I don't see that being the problem in Minnesota. There are lot of people that like venison and will shoot does. I know in Sconny, it was really looked down upon to shoot a small buck, and it was even worse to shoot a doe. I don't know if we would have that mentality here or not. I know that we have lots of time and opportunity to take more than one deer. I will try and get out this weekend to get another doe. I have no problem with it.

(BTW, I worked in Wisconsin for 4 years on a dairy farm through High School and most of college. They were big farmers and hunters in Buffalo County, they would rather go without than shoot a small buck or a doe, I can totally see why EAB had to implemented)

[Bear55]

First off, you are right Michigan and Wisconsin have more hunters than we do, but in Michigan roughly 6.7% of the population hunts. In Minnesota the number is 9.6%. Michigan has about twice as many people so you can't just compare the number of licenses sold. However, both states lag far behind Wisconsin which is about 15% of the population buying licenses.

As far as the "worthless ground" argument. You must have little experience in farm country. Areas that contain a high percentage of crop land and a low percentage of timber/set aside areas have a very hard time holding deer after the crops are gone and like you mentioned once pressure is applied it gets worse.

Coach my point was that both their gun seasons are later in the year and they get out and hunt them regaurdless of the weather or % of licences to population. I can't speak about the farmland you hunt but I'm sure if their cover is gone they move to a better area but in terms of worthless ground you may be talking about a small farm while I was talking more the size of a deers home range over a few miles. If the deer don't have any pressure during the rut they won't vanish later in the year when many of us are hoping the rifle opener gets moved.

[nolte]

trigger is right, EAB was put in place because hunters wouldn't shoot any does. They got in the mindset that the more does that hang around, the more bucks that will be around too. Which is actually counter-prodcutive, because the bucks will move much less. It was very effective in areas that have a lot more private land than public.

[groundswatter]

nolte,your right on.But a family of four that has only one person hunting,and both bowhunts and riflehunts has to shoot a doe or most of the time a button buck with each weapon to shoot a buck again with each weapon.Now how many deer can a family of 4 eat.Thats part of the problem too.I'll be honest my family of 4 can eat 2 deer a year,I dont believe in shooting and donating to food pantrys,why kill just to kill.What ever Minn does cant be compared to a state that allows baiting.Deer movement just dont happen here in wis untill the rut.I myself hate the baiting here,it keeps too many deer in areas that cant support the #

[96trigger]

Groundswatter, from what I understood of the EAB rule, once you got a doe, your EAB tag was good for any season. If I shot a doe with my bow, my Buck tag would be good for firearm season also. Can anyone else verify this? I'll look on the HSOforum.