Where are all the little flatheads?

[hanso612]

Whatching the U tube video of the wintering hole I noticed a lack of small flatheads. Where do they winter or for that matter where are they at all? I've caught hundreds of flatheads but only one or two under a couple pounds. I never luck into them walleye fishing like I do channels. Anybody catching small flatheads in any numbers anywhere? Hans

[rushing]

Well small flatheads are nothing more than snacks for the bigger ones so they more than likely they arent going to be hanging with the bigguns. As far as catching them I'm not sure if you mean in the winter or what. I personally dont know anyone who targets wintering fish. In my opinion it would be like going into a bears den and shooting it while it slept.

If you mean the summertime, we catch plenty of lil guys.

[hanso612]

I use big live bait for the most part and I'm sure this self selects for bigger fish. Rushing, do most of your little ones come on cut bait or balls? I was just wondering where they are when the big ones are holed up, not to target them, but to learn more about their life cycle.

Are they in a schools like the channels on the video or are they spread out in their own holes, or is there a group of small ones laying on the bottom in another spot?

How long do they stay with dad in the nest? Do they return there? Do they swim around in schools like bullhead for a year?

Lots of questions I know, but I just don't run across many little flatheads. Hans

[sparcebag]

I've caught them down to 4",GraniteFalls area,while fishin for sheepies for bait,got em on crawlers,a number of 1/2-3 lbers on cut bait ,also catch carp on cut bait?? I did'nt think carp would take it.Not as many big flats up that way as down there,maybe the smaller flats habit smaller water.And all my small flats are daytime.Seems like 9PM is even shut off time for channels up there,best channel time 6-8 PM.The larger flats after 9pm latest was 3 AM which was my largest.But I do get quite a few small flats.

[rushing]

I only use big live bait myself and catch plenty of lil guys. I think the lil guys prolly find diffent types of places to winter such as rocks. Somewhere they can wedge into without having to worry about being preyed upon. As far as I know the males are on the nest for about 2 weeks or so then the fry are left to fend for themselves. From then on I think they tend to stick to cover or in or near rocks, it provides both cover and food for them.

I am always amazed at how small of flathead you can catch on a decent sized bullhead.

[PierBridge]

 Originally Posted By: rushing

I am always amazed at how small of flathead you can catch on a decent sized bullhead.

[Ralph Wiggum]

 Originally Posted By: rushing

I am always amazed at how small of flathead you can catch on a decent sized bullhead.

OUCH!!! (yep, that's a bullhead spine poking out of his belly)

[Tyler Holm]

Good Golly.

[DTro]

[Grant]

dtro- nice... new desktop wallpaper?

[harvey lee]

There has to be many smaller ones out there as that seems like all I caught last season. I did catch approx 10 from 20-40#'s soo, the little ones are a nice filler between the bigger ones.

[hanson]

Shoot... the little ones are out there. The 3-5 pounders can be darn pesty at times. I remember one trip last year where either Dtro or myself cast out a nice bullhead, the rod tip spazzed out for 10 seconds, and when the bait was reeled in, there was a flathead on the other end of the line about the same size as the bait used. The little critters have a BIG appetite!

We also noticed last year a phenomenal catch rate of 8-10lb flatheads. Should bode well for decent fish down the road.

[crazyice]

Awesome pictures guys!

[wastewaterguru]

I remember those little guys. The one that Pierbridge posted was also missing an eye......that little flatty must have bitten off more than he could chew once before.

I got one for league this year that was only 19 inches.

I know most predator fish can handle prey that are 1/4 to 1/2 of their own body length and actually prefer prey that are closer to the 1/2 mark.

To catch 45 inch plus flatties......one has to ponder the fact that the normal meal for those fish is 20 inches in length or more. A 7" bullhead just may not be enough of a meal to turn on the truly big flatties.

I would think a 2 or 3 pound sheephead is the primary food for the big girls in the Minnesota. Makes a guy think!!

[Tyler Holm]

Yep, gets the wheels turning upstairs guru.

[peder]

 Originally Posted By: wastewaterguru

I remember those little guys. The one that Pierbridge posted was also missing an eye......that little flatty must have bitten off more than he could chew once before.

I got one for league this year that was only 19 inches.

I know most predator fish can handle prey that are 1/4 to 1/2 of their own body length and actually prefer prey that are closer to the 1/2 mark.

To catch 45 inch plus flatties......one has to ponder the fact the big I would think a 2 or 3 pound sheephead is the primary food for girls in the Minnesota. Makes a guy think!!

that the normal meal for those fish is 20 inches in length or more. A 7" bullhead just may not be enough of a meal to turn on the truly big flatties.

[peder]

As WWG said a record class flat can eat what it wants when wants. I think we would all agree on that point. Now i'm looking for opinions. Do you think oversized bait on beefy tackle would help catch larger fish or is it a more random event being in the right place at the right time? Also, do you think that the species of bait would be a factor independent of the of the bait size? There has to be a new state record out there, if some one gets it will it be through planning or dumb luck?

[DTro]

Yep, but a guy could spend all summer waiting for one bite

[hanson]

Considering bait size...

-Dtro's 1st 50lb + flat was caught on the smallest bullhead in the tank I believe, like a 4-5" bullhead.

-Dtro's 2nd 50lb + flat was caught on a piece of cutbait.

Just a couple examples of some seriously huge fish eating small meals.

The walleye fisherman on Pool 4 incidentally catch flatheads (big ones too) all the time on jig & minnows, jig & plastics, etc.

Gotta remember they are opportunistic predators, if the opportunity arrises to eat something, they'll eat it. Guess I don't subscribe to the "bigger is better" category with bait but some guys do, and they catch big fish as well.

[Ralph Wiggum]

Here's how I look at it. Fish are programmed to get the most amount of calories with the least amount of energy spent. That just makes sense from a biological standpoint. So, sure, these big flatheads are going to eat big fish. But, should a 4" bullhead be pinned to the bottom near a big flathead, that bullhead is going to represent some calories with minimal energy exertion.

So, big bait, small bait, I don't think it matters a ton. It's putting that bait in the right spot! Now if you can pin down a big bait in the right spot, perhaps it might be a bit more tempting than a small bait, but I don't think a flathead is going to pass up an easy meal of a 4" bullhead.

[Larry FlatCaster]

 Originally Posted By: hanson

-Dtro's 1st 50lb + flat was caught on the smallest bullhead in the tank I believe, like a 4-5" bullhead.

-Dtro's 2nd 50lb + flat was caught on a piece of cutbait.

Jesus, How many 50s has this DTRO guy caught?

I recall the 52 this last year with WWG.... is there another confirmed 50 under his belt?

I have to agree with Wiggs and Hanson both.

I've seen the cut bait King..... AKA DTRO rack up more flats and nice ones on good old cut.

I personally prefer to use big baits.... I will do so at every opportunity. I've caught flats of all sizes on all sizes of bait, both live and cut.

If its there and they are hungry they will eat it.

Location Location Location.

[Farmboy1]

I have had better luck with smaller baits at certain times of the year, and I also have better luck with cut for flatties at certain times of the year. I really like to put out a big bait, and a small bait, and see shich one gets wacked first. May be blind dumb luck, or may be a pattern. It is even better if I have another in my boat and we can try different baits (suckers, Bullheads, cut) to really see what they want.

I agree with Larry that it is much about location.

I don't think you can say bigger is better, but I have been known to flirt with the 7" rule, maybe I just have a malfunctioning ruler. Ohh, and I always keep my lights on too.

[hanso612]

I did an internet search looking for info on the life cycle of flatheads and found very little to answer the question of where are those yearling cats this time of year. Anybody ever see a swarm of little flatheads like bullheads or are they more solitary as fry? How big are they by the first fall? Hans.

[sparcebag]

I also searched for flats growth, habitat.can find info for most fishes but not flats,other than a few studies that dont contain manily growth rates what I'm interested in.

[katchaser]

This is an interesting subject and I have already

attempted to answer the question.

Thesis funded by the government (required for PHD)

must be published. Unfortunately few make it to

the internet, where they would be widely available

to the public. Years ago the government maintained

an library in Maryland where you could get copies of

thesis for cost of copies. Budget cuts closed this

office and now some internet sites catalog thesis

and offer downloads for a high yearly subscription

price. These sites may be available through libraries

and certainly from college libraries but are

cost prohibitive for individuals.

I wrote a sample thread demonstrating flathead growth

patterns. It is meant to demonstrate growth from some

sampled waters. It gives an idea of flathead growth

so you can make comparison.

Many catmen have asked me how old I think a particular fish is.

Growth rates in different waterways will be more or less depending on habitat, growth seasons, food supply, and other environmental factors.

Flathead catfish are primarily wild strain fish meaning their genetic base includes wide variation of factors including growth rates in each year class of fish

I pulled this graph from a particular study from the St Joseph river in Michigan .(Population Abundance and Stock Characteristics of Flathead

Catfish in the Lower St. Joseph River, Michigan

DANIEL J. DAUGHERTY AND TRENT M. SUTTON*

Department of Forestry and Natural Resources, Purdue University,

195 Marsteller Street, West Lafayette, Indiana 47907-1159, USA)

to illustrate growth rates. This study is on the Northern edge of flathead range but is pretty typical of flathead growth in rivers.

The growth of flathead in other waterways may vary but the same tendency will exist. Quick growth for the first 5 years then growth rate slows drastically the rest of the flatheads lifespan.

After 8 years old the Michigan flathead were only growing 1 1/2 inches per year declining to less than an inch per year. The older the age class the lower the pecentage of sampled fish. The sampling showed a classic population dynamic except for a increased percentage of age 9 fish. This could be attributable to a very good spawn and year class of fish or that age class being very susceptable to their sampling process.

If you look at these graphs carefully you will see the dots are above or below the graph line. This means the sampled fish were either longer or shorted than the growth rate. This also repeats my idea of individual genetics. Also this study did not take into account the differences in body lengths of males and females.

These charts are meant to help you understand flathead growth. Rates from waterway to waterway will vary and growth of individual fish will vary.

Also when someone proclaims a flathead may be 50 years old you can tell them that Robby and fisheries science and aged very few fish (1) over 19 years old. Anyone that is truly interested can e-mail me to see population /age data showing how few flathead over 15 years old that have ever been documented.

Luckily I have found habitat where growth rates are far better than in this study. You should attempt to find waters where flathead grow large quickly because few grow to old age.

Growth rates may vary slightly from waterway to

waterway so the important factors are the curve

of the chart data.