Adults abusing youth tags

[harvey lee]

That will probably never change as they were not taught the correct way to hunt. One can only educate as many as possible and then hope for the best for the rest. But, we should not penalize the youth because of the actions of a few that dont feel that they need to abide by the law.

[Whoaru99]

I agree Harvey.

All we can do is our part.

[chucker34]

Ditto. I think lcornice mentioned once that the DNR can only make so many rules, but when it comes down to it, the bad guys are gonna do what they're gonna do and the DNR - with help from us hopefully - has to do the best job it can to catch them.

[Shack]

You guys might have read this before from me, but my father was not a sportsman at all. I personally do not know if he has even shot a deer in his life ( I know he has been deer hunting, because of the 1970’s metal tags I have that were not filled). My father did take me grouse hunting a couple of times after me bugging him. He also stood side with me during my firearms training. Besides that, he did not do much more. I can not say where my drive of outdoor sports came from (possibly a little from great uncles, uncles and grandfathers talking at family get-togethers), but I have the drive.

My first deer hunt at age 12 was prepared all by my self. It was financed slightly by my mother (rest of money came from gopher trapping). I had even asked and gotten written permission from the local farmers land I was hunting. I did not shoot a deer. I think It went 4-5 years before I shot a deer. I passed some up, because I was afraid of having to pay (or ask) for the processing funds of the deer and there was no youth antleress hunt. With all this aside, I have hunted every year since.

I read the regs and was raised very well in the realm of “respect”. I have learned on my own how the correct ways of hunting are done. There was no “youth hunt”, but I wished there was. It may have gotten me to bag a deer sooner. I had to pass on many good doe shots. Hindsight is twenty twenty, but I feel a good, well managed youth hunt is the key for future hunting in MN.

I have a 6 year old and a 11 year old. Now a days with today’s ways of thinking, I can see how things like hunting and other outdoors sports will be put to the way side. I do not saturate my children with hunting and fishing, because they could become bored with these sports, but I do not want to keep them from these sports either. I take them just enough to keep them wanting more. Its like sports. I do not push, but rather wait untill they bring me a sign up slip them selves.

As far as the “slime hunters”. Comments like “We need to educate those around us by word of mouth, articles, other media, and start with our own actions.” unfortunately is not always the way to totally stop these people. I feel a youth only hunt in these area’s, backed up with a DNR office only big game registration would hit home like non other. Take the “loop hole problem” and make it a right in their face problem. It sounds like these areas that this post was started about, are in dire straights for deer management or population.

Just my 2 cents!

[Craig_S]

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Were did he catch that lake trout?

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That one is a Manitou fish. He got one in late June on Nipigon - almost 40 inches......

Craig

[papabear]

How is it penalizing a youth by not giving them a special youth license? It is not the kids who need the gratification it is the adults. They want to brag how good their kid is or show off how many deer the family gets. My kid loves to fish wether we catch anything or not, it is a succesful trip if we have fun. I remember starting out hunting and not having a father to take me but the idea of getting into the woods and try to get a deer has kept me going for years. So if a kid needs to be succesful at deer hunting by getting a deer early and often then meybe they are not that interested in hunting, but intersted in killing. The adults can abuse this new privilige and then someone will ask for special caged hunts to insure success and adults will abuse that too. It is not instant gratification that will attract young hunters but the thrill of the hunt and the anticipation and the excitment of opening morn. If that doesnt do it then too bad.

[Wanderer]

For the record:

I am in favor of letting youth have the option of buck or doe. Adults should not fill a youth tag in order to protect that priveledge. (DNR management needs) Adult hunters should be teaching their kids to be well rounded outdoors as well as indoors. I thank those who are doing this.

I've hunted around so many different attitudes that I've witnessed all sides of these arguments. I know what I feel is right and have voiced it when others have infringed on it. Some we still hunt with, some we don't.

I have alot more work to do with my two girls. Thankfully they have an outdoors interest to varying degrees so we have some common ground. I don't think they will ever be 'dyed in the wool' about it though. Therefore I test their commitment sometimes.

It does make me happy when other adults lift an eyebrow when a young girl can tell them about the difference between antlers and horns, what velvet is, what time of year its usually rubbed off, and when its a good time to shed hunt.

Just in case I haven't been clear what side I'm on by entertaining others' thoughts. ...If anybody cares

[96trigger]

I want to make it clear that I don't want to penalize any youth, my occupation is working with youth, volunteering and teaching. I do not want to penalize anyone. The main point I was making is that we give them plenty of opportunity to harvest deer. I simply don't think that they need 4-5 years of youth tags. I can easily see two, maybe three years.

As for some of you, you are doing a great job with your kids. I'm sure that some of your kids are better sportsman than a lot of the adult hunters out there, but your kid is one of 1,000s that take the field each fall and probably is not the norm. You can tell us how much your kid does and thats great, but it doesn't resolve the issue. Almost all of us on this forum are educated and family oriented. We love out kids and teach them to do the right things. We volunteer and help when we can, unfortunately there are many out there that are not like us. If this really is that big of a problem, something needs to be done about it. There has to be a change or a compromise somewhere. Sitting back and letting the poachers poach just creates more poachers.

I love the idea of a special youth hunt. I'm not sure when they would put it in, but I think it would solve a lot of problems with adults abusing youth tags.

[Hammer Handle]

I don't want to "pentalize" the youth either...but if there is a drawing for doe permits in that area...the deer numbers are not high at that time. Why give a "loophole" for adults to take that extra doe?

When I started hunting, even as a youth I needed to draw a doe permit. If I didn't get one, I understood.

The kid has to feel the excitement of being in the woods and the experience. Also, seeing a deer and getting all excited...and realizing it is one you can't shoot is part of the fun.

Getting a deer is great. But, that is not what it is all about.

If the system continues to be abused, it will never change. Less does taken will result in more deer for the future. That is what happened in my area. Thus, my nieces and nephews have more deer to shoot at and more chances than I did as a kid.

And, if a father really wants the boy to shoot the doe...if your party draws a doe permit...give it to the kid for party hunting.

[Surface Tension]

I think it boils down to some feel their chance of drawing a doe permit will be less if youth are given a doe tag.

I see that same attitude toward the Youth Duck Hunt.

Same attitude toward the Youth Turkey Hunt.

Same attitude that Dads only take their kids fishing so they can have an extra line.

Give me all the excuses in the world to make your point.

I'll listen but I ain't buyin.

Lets look at Archery, they can take a buck or doe. Why is that? Because its more difficult to take a deer by arrow then it is by rifle. Thats OK but kids shouldn't get that advantage because "theres more to hunting then Killing".

Question, when you take a kid new to fishing do you take them where they'll have the best chance to catch fish? Or do you believe they need to be patient and go without. After all its not about catching fish, right?

My earlier post was to paint a picture of what my son is like and what many other youngsters are like.

You don't know them from Adam but you need to know they aren't just someones snot nosed, spoiled, brats.

That all dads don't drag their kid into the woods so they can shoot a Doe on the kids tag.

That, if this is a problem it isn't created by youth.

The number one violation is baiting. Tell me how you'd fix that. I'll bet your solution will not effect you in any way.

Why is that?

I see to many topics with folks wanting to tailor the regs to their benefit, giving absolutely no second thought to any other group that will be effected. Why it that?

[lawdog]

I don't think anyone I know would shoot a deer to fill their kid's tag, that's lame. I do have one question though when I read this. Does it say somewhere that youth licenses are excluded from our otherwise liberal party hunting and cross tagging scheme here? That's news to me. Like I said, I wouldn't do it, so I never even thought to look but is it really illegal?

[Hammer Handle]

Well, it doesn't effect me either way. My area is in the extensive harvesting area and we have no doe permits.

I am just stating what worked for me. As a youth, I had to draw a doe permit like everyone else. Doing so helped the deer number get to where they are now (along with mild winters and CRP).

Of course, I would rather see the youth get a deer rather than me. But, they need to learn what hunting is about too. Comparing it to fishing is totally different. If your kid catches a 15 pound muskie, will you keep it or release it? You can't catch and release in hunting.

I am merely stating the way that worked for me. Period.

[Augusta]

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I think it boils down to some feel their chance of drawing a doe permit will be less if youth are given a doe tag.

I see that same attitude toward the Youth Duck Hunt.

Same attitude toward the Youth Turkey Hunt.

Same attitude that Dads only take their kids fishing so they can have an extra line.

Give me all the excuses in the world to make your point.

I'll listen but I ain't buyin.

Lets look at Archery, they can take a buck or doe. Why is that? Because its more difficult to take a deer by arrow then it is by rifle. Thats OK but kids shouldn't get that advantage because "theres more to hunting then Killing".

Question, when you take a kid new to fishing do you take them where they'll have the best chance to catch fish? Or do you believe they need to be patient and go without. After all its not about catching fish, right?

My earlier post was to paint a picture of what my son is like and what many other youngsters are like.

You don't know them from Adam but you need to know they aren't just someones snot nosed, spoiled, brats.

That all dads don't drag their kid into the woods so they can shoot a Doe on the kids tag.

That, if this is a problem it isn't created by youth.

The number one violation is baiting. Tell me how you'd fix that. I'll bet your solution will not effect you in any way.

Why is that?

I see to many topics with folks wanting to tailor the regs to their benefit, giving absolutely no second thought to any other group that will be effected. Why it that?

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Well said Surface, just simply well said....Is this where I'm supposed to clap???

[96trigger]

It doesn't affect me either, I hunt intensive and managed areas, but like I said earlier, when I was a youth, we didn't have a special youth hunts or even youth permits and 3B was lottery area. Funny how now its mostly intesive harvest and management areas. Maybe making us wait to see a deer was good for the population.

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Question, when you take a kid new to fishing do you take them where they'll have the best chance to catch fish? Or do you believe they need to be patient and go without. After all its not about catching fish, right?

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As for that statement, I'm not buying it. If I want a kid to be able to harvest something, I'll take him squirrel hunting, or rabbit hunting, or panfishing or bass fishing. I won't take a kid new to fishing out for muskies or finicky walleyes or trophy northerns.

I don't believe that shooting deer should be as easy as catching sunfish. I am simply commenting on a problem that must be big enough to get some media attention. I would give up my tag for my son to shoot a doe if needed, I have shot lots of deer. If this was the norm in that zone, it wouldn't be getting media attention.

As for baiting, your right baiting is a problem, but it's easier to call in the tip line about baiting than about a party's hunting practices.

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I see to many topics with folks wanting to tailor the regs to their benefit, giving absolutely no second thought to any other group that will be effected. Why it that?

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I also think that while you might have a point, the ones with the most to lose will talk the loudest, thats a very broad statement given that you have no idea what zones some of the people commenting are hunting in.

[Black_Bay]

Let's review the topic here since this thread has gotten off track. The DNR has good reason to suspect that adults are illegally shooting antlerless deer and using youth tags on them. This has the DNR rethinking it's regs in zone 4. Cornicelli said "He added that the practice makes it difficult for the DNR to accurately manage the herd in areas where the antlerless kill is limited. "We may have to go to bucks-only if it continues in some of those areas, he said."

The issue isn't whether youth hunters should or shouldn't be allowed to take antlerless deer. The issue is adults doing something illegal and the ramifications will effect everyone who hunts in those areas.

[1runhotshot]

I talked to a upper level DNR dude, he said "if the current success rate for zone 4 continues on the youth hunters license they are going to make drastic changes next year" (in some areas) How does bucks only and NO doe sound? That goes for archery, firearm or muzzleloader. I WOULD LOVE IT! If there are no does, they cannot create buck fawns. He said "The problem is that puts alot of pressure on the bucks" My response, " Does not matter every buck that has antlers get shot anyways" I'm sure many people will have a problem with this but if there was not cheating out there it would not be an issue!

[Hammer Handle]

Exactly. If the deer population is hurting...something has to change. People are going to have to "suffer". Deer are going to have to be spared...mainly does.

If the success rate is too high for new hunters, whether the adults are shooting them or not, it is going to have to change.

It is important to encourage the youth to enjoy the outdoors, but we have to do what we can to protect the outdoors too.

Like I said, I am not tailoring the rules to fit me...I am stating what has worked in the past for my area and many others. We all have to look at the big picture, not what is good for just us.

I am not totally against the youth hunt (although it seems we have to do more to encourage youth to get away from video games these days), but I am for doing all we can to maintaining a good deer population in MN.

[Surface Tension]

If the herd is in that bad a shape in a particular zone that a Bucks Only harvest across the board is needed for a rebound then so be it. I don't think anyone is arguing that. Its a solution that all hunters in that area will bare, not just the youth.

[96trigger]

Agreed on all of the above. I trust the DNR and that they know what they are doing. Parts of the state are very successful. Others need more management.

[skunk-ape]

Exactly, that's what this thread is all about. It's too bad we got to this point in Zone 4 but here we are. Restrictions already have been instituted on the all-season license and antlerless permits have been cut dramatically.

If it takes ending the special youth privileges then I'm all for it and I shouldn't be considered a youth penalizer because of it. I've deer hunted Zone 4 my whole life and have seen firsthand the drop in deer populations. Despite ideal winter conditions and more habitat via government set-aside programs deer pops. are way down from historic levels.

People aren't seeing deer like they used to and just seeing deer is what alot of people, especially youth, judge the quality of their hunt by.

For the most part, the DNR does a good job of ensuring a quality hunt for EVERYONE and I trust their decision making on this matter.

[shogun]

I do not trust the MN DNR and their decisions. They have screwed up fishing and hunting in this state.

Edit: They could learn a lot from the Wisconsin DNR.

[Tripleplay]

I've had my two kids on youth tags the last three seasons, I can tell you that each deer registered on their youth tag through those years was shot but that youth. In our area we were previously Intensive harvest and this year moved to a Managed Area and those extra tags were for the party to fill as needed but each youth knew they had one tag for sure that only they could fill. This year we had 4 youth tags counting a neighbor boy and all four of the deer our party tagged were shot by the youth in the group.

I hate to see all youth penalized because of the actions of a few (maybe a whole lot more than a few based upon those success rates quoted early in this sting of comments). My kids know that those tags are for them alone to fill and I think it makes it easier for them to relax and not rush the shot, etc.. In fact, it has now been two seasons since I've tagged a deer myself as I like others mentioned allow the kids to take the shots and then I might be ready for cleanup. This year I didn't even pull the trigger until the last 30 minutes of hunting when we were taking stands down and two of the youth shot a doe running across the field---I shot to try to finish the deer off and as it turned out the kids had done the job but the deer didn't quite know it was dead yet!

I get more enjoyment out of teaching my kids patience, the importance of taking a good clean shot and the pain of a miss every now and then more than needing to kill a deer myself. I certainly can see some of the other points of view but to be a parent and see their face after it has all come together for your son or daughter is worth more than a bit of venison in the freezer.

[LABS4ME]

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I do not trust the MN DNR and their decisions. They have screwed up fishing and hunting in this state.

Edit: They could learn a lot from the Wisconsin DNR.

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You mean like an artificially high deer population and "earn-a-buck" and the ability to shoot more than 1 buck a year....? that kind of management?

I also like the fishing this state has to offer... sounds like you need to change zip codes.

I think our DNR has a thankless job that no matter what they do will only appease 50% of the sportsman on any issue. For the most part I think they've done a pretty good job.

Good Luck!

Ken

[shogun]

Fishing is nothing like it was 20-30 years ago. Nowadays people catch a couple 10-15" dink walleyes and call that good fishing? give me a break! When I was growing up, we threw everything back that was under 2 lbs. Kept the 3-5 lbers for eating. You could actually catch a limit of 3 lb walleyes then. Now you can hardly come across a walleye that's 3 lbs because people are fishing them out before they can even get 15". 15" a good eater? give me break - the 15" good eater story is a conspiracy to make people feel better about the dinky *** fish they catch so they will be happy with the way the DNR doesn't manage the MN fishing.

Ever been fishing in Canada? We could easily have fishing just as good if MN would adopt the same tighter regulations and stiffer penalties.

[Jameson]

So, what are the suggestions to stop adults from abusing youth tags? Put out flyers, and try and inform evil-doers that they are not helping the youth become hunters. I just don't see it working. As I said in a previous post. Where the deer herd is too low, and the youth tags have been abused, the DNR should entirely close deer hunting in that area for a season. This will be a big wake-up call to everyone. Maybe before some people looked the other way when they saw a youth tag being abused. After they had a hunting season taking away, I bet they change. This would likely affect me, too. I hunted all six days of 4A and 4B seasons in a lottery area, and will be hunting in a lottery area more during ML season.

If the DNR's reaction to this is to only change some areas to buck-only, is it going to change much? The people who were abusing youth tags would then likely still shoot the anterless deer, only then not tag them at all!