Adults abusing youth tags

[brittman]

ND: The success rate by young hunters during the nine-and-a-half day youth season increased slightly to 53 percent.

[pascooter94]

my son has been hunting ( with the big boys as he calls it) the boys for two years and he has a blast and is still rubbing it in because he was the only one to get one this year and that to me made a hunt that will stay with him and it will be the talk at grandmas house on turkey day and i cant wait to hear how he shot the deer out of grandpas stand, and yes they need to shoot it we dont shoot it for them.

[BobT]

One point da_chise31. I can understand where you were coming from because, I may be wrong, but I think you were eluding to lottery areas in particular. In this case, it is not permitted for a party hunter to fill a youth's antlerless permit. The youth is the only one permitted to fill his/her antlerless tag. That may not forbid their tag being filled by a buck taken by another party member, however.

I think this thread may have moved a little off topic because the issue still remains where some and maybe even many hunters are taking their kids hunting simply to improve their own opportunities rather than to introduce their youth to the hunting experience. What's worse is that they are teaching them to do the same thing to their own children some day. With this line of thought I agree that it is abuse of the system.

This isn't limited to deer hunting. For example, how many take kids pheasant or grouse hunting? The kids' lack of experience puts them at a disadvantage so they're not as likely to hit the birds, except when my 14 year old nephew goes with us and embarrasses the dump out of me. How many shots offered are we willing to pass on so we don't fill the daily limit and end the hunt for the day for our kids?

Bob

[papabear]

Face it hunting is a competitive sport. We say wwe are in ot for the sport, the experience etc. But look around it is trophy and limits that are talked about. So dont get upset if people are abusing the system. Ifor one am not shocked just teed off when people do this to kids. but the DNR should have seen it coming eventualy. If the day comes where it goes back to does by permit statewide they better cnacel the youth tag or adults will be shooting deer for kids all over and buying tags for any kid they can find just to shoot another deer.

[lcornice]

[quote

Bob's right, I looked again and I was reading about the special youth hunt which are different from the youth tags. So clearly there is a loophole (party hunting) in the regulation, although there are some moral and ethical boundaries being crossed.

---

There's no loophole. It's listed at least twice in the book. First on page 38 and the statement is capitalized. It's reiterated again in the same paragraph in bold. It's also stated again on page 72 in the party hunting section.

The regulation clearly states you cannot take an antlerless deer for a youth in a lottery area. It only applies to antlerless deer in areas were permits are limited. You can legally shoot their doe/buck/delk in managed or intensive areas.

[not_nuf_time]

Hammer Handle, come on, the reason for the youth doe permit is to get them more excited about hunting and giving them a better opportunity to bag a deer and feel the pride that comes with hunting. Just because a number of selffish adults abuse the system set up for youth we should take it away? Thus stripping a huge number of kids around the state a chance to shoot a deer. Crazy. My son shot his first deer this year and he couldn't have been more proud. I wont forget it and glad I was with him. In fact I wanted him to shoot mine, but we didn't have the opportunity.

[harvey lee]

I realize that there are a few adults that will and do abuse the youth program. Why would all sportsmen want to end a program to introduce the youth to deer hunting, a sport we all enjoy?

Yes, some and probably very few abuse this program but lets not penalize all the youth and parents because of a few bad apples. If it comes down to a few less tags for me so some youth will be able to have a successful first deer season, then so be it.

[Surface Tension]

So whats the solution.

Get rid of youth tags? Since that logic will punish all youth, lets address other Big Game violations,, shall we.

Lets use that same logic and start taking away more hunting opportunities where we have violations. Deer baiting, shooting along and across road ways, failure to site tag, shooting before and after hours, trespassing. I can go on.

One sure way to fix this is close the season. Why not, we're willing to take away hunting opportunities when we aren't directly effected. Or will it, we'll have punished the law abiding and ethical sportsmen but the poachers will continue.

To fix the problem you'll have to address the rest of the illegal behavior as a whole.

Lets use education, lets promote safe and ethical hunting. Do what you can to set examples within your circle. This needs to be targeted toward Young and Old.

Yep, we'll still see all these violations but the goal is to reduce them.

[chucker34]

Agreed. Getting rid of the youth tags will not solve your problem. What are you going to do next, tell women they can't hunt because of the abuse that goes on by guys buying their wives, girlfriends and mothers tags since they're in a lottery area? And even if you went to that extreme, guys illegally tagging deer for their kids or women folk will just start illegally killing deer without registering them because its pretty much in line with what they're already doing. They'll just have to learn how to process their own deer if they don't already so no one catches them.

I like the laws and regs and tags the way they are now. They do a good job of keeping the honest people honest. The people who are going to break the law are going to do so regardless of what way you slice it. You just have to hope the DNR can catch them. Don't penalize a young person for that.

[not_nuf_time]

Maybe it's also something that needs to be pushed in the Hunter Safety Education courses. Many adults sit through these programs with there kids. If it were stressed more throughout he program there, maybe the kids will also remember to bring it up in deer camp to the adults, that its their tag to use, not others. It's also also a round a bout way of peer preasure within the party. Also, if kids know its theirs and theirs only, they won't want to give it up to some other selffish brown its downer in the group. It will be hard to control until some busts are made and liscences are lost to change an attitude.

[BLACKJACK]

Everyone is surprised that adults are using kids licenses to shoot does? Thats been happening for years!!! The same way that wives/mothers/girlfriends have been shooting deer for years!!! The same way kids are taken along fishing to make it legal to take home more fish!!! I watched a guy up on Red last year pull up - we were on his 'hot spot', throw out a bobber for the kid that never touched the pole and freely admitted that he was looking for enough walleyes for a fish fry!!

If automatic doe permits for kids are discontinued, realize that they can still go hunting and can still shoot a buck.

Personally I think that the automatic doe permits should continue, but do more education of why they are available for the kids, and do some sort of enforcement on adults shooting the kids deer, kind of like what is being done on deer baiting, and publicize the busts and fines/loss of deer hunting privileges!!!!!.

[Shack]

I take my kids hunting, fishing and other stuff for the principal of "education" and sharing moments with them, before they are to old to care. If they take up the outdoor sports I love during these times, all the better.

If I take them fishing, sure I love the extra polls. I get more fish in the boat than if I where alone. More fun for my kids and I. I catch and release almost all fish I catch, so it more for the fun than the catch.

Now hunting. When I bring my two boys hunting for grouse, I would hold to my limit than the limit of three. Grouse can be wiped out in an area easy, due to over hunting. I want these area's good for my kids in the future, if they decide to hunt them when they get older.

Now as far as the "youth tag" issue is concerned, its just a wake up type thing for the DNR in that area. Most of use have seen the loop holes for years, but it takes a blatant situation for DNR to go "hay, this is a fact".

I figure in this case, hit fire with fire. A youth only hunting season in these area's, with a DNR office register of game only. Sure people are going to do what they want and poach, but with the chance of getting caught and some beefed up DNR tactics on catching poachers, the point will get passed along. Now I do not like seeing law abiding hunters get the shaft because of a bunch of unsportsmanlike selfish people. One or two season's like this (if this stuff keeps up), will get everyone more involved in making sure others keep in line. Then plug in a youth only hunt in these zones and the point will hit very hard at home. Hence the education aspect. This would be in lue of a totaly closed season for deer for these area's. Sure would put a point accross, with out putting blame or hindering youth to hunt.

Good luck!

[101winchester]

I think that possibly the statistic is overblown or overstated as a problem. Wouldn't it seem logical that as a parent you are going to put your child on the best possible place you can find? That of course would elevate the child's chances of sucess thereby inflating a statistic. I would like to see an actual number of adults they caught doing this as compared to the number of youth hunters and put that statistic out there. I think it would compare to any other violation. Just my thoughts. I still think its a great idea and appauld all those that participate and get a kid out hunting.

[Shack]

101,

I am also on the sides with you. This day and age, it could just be alot of father/mothers who have brought out their kids and had good connection with deer.

I have tried not to read into things that close on the internet.

[96trigger]

On a side note, I know that this might be a little off topic or even stirring the pot a little bit, but how long do we really need youth licenses. Should a kid have the privilege and responsibility of driving a car, yet still get treated like a youth by the DNR.

Don't give parents 5-6 years of buying a youth tag, I think that if the kid can sit on his own, (after age 14), they should no longer be considered a youth. Some of you are probably going to disagree with me, and I don't know a lot about zone 4, but I am hoping that when my sone gets old enough to shoot his first couple of deer, I am there. AFter that, I hope he learned enough to handle himself with me near by, but not in the same stand.

Decreasing the age limit will decrease the number tags and also help decrease the abuse. Just my opinion.

[harvey lee]

I believe that there are many youth that may not have the chance to go out hunting before the age of 14 or so. I cannot see any reason why they should not be allowed to harvest a doe to help keep their interest in deer hunting.

I would gladly give up my chance at a doe every year to allow a younger hunter to have a better chance at a deer. If I only then have the chance at a buck or nothing, oh well as long as Jr has a better chance is fine with me.

I just dont believe we can penalize a younger hunter because of the actions of a few that abuse the rules. Yes, decreasing the number of tags might reduce the abuse but it would also reduce the chance for the youth. I'll give mine up for the youth. I cannot understand why we want to penalize some for the actions of others.

The lawbreakers will always break the rules and we just need to find a better way to help catch more of them.

[fisherking01]

If a kid needs to shoot a deer for the hunt to be successful and keep his-her interest, they are missing the point. I'm 37, hunted since I was old enough to walk with, applied for doe permits at age 12 to whenever. Hunting is not for everyone. Sure it's nice to let the kids shoot whatever, but I guarantee it was more rewarding to shoot a buck when I didn't get a doe permit. Many years I didn't shoot a deer, I'm still out there. The gotta get a deer sentiment is tiresome. The hunting pressure that I have witnessed is increasing dramatically, the deer numbers are decreasing dramatically. When the days of seeing 1 or 0 deer are the norm, and not the exception, how much interest will be there??

I'll be there, chasing a dream if nothing else, my kids, probably not, there are a lot of activities for them to choose from.

If you want to change what's going on, start with your own group, then expand from there.

Remember that only a handful of the hunting community have access to the internet, so voicing opinions on this site and others limits the exposure to the general hunting public. We need to educate those around us by word of mouth, articles, other media, and start with our own actions.

Enjoy the hunt, Brent

[Wanderer]

Actually fisherking, you make a darn good argument!

I'm 39 (for the rest of my life, by the way ) and remember starting out against the odds. I was the luckiest sob in camp and tagged out regularly. My brother went 10 years before he got his first. We are both hunting more now than ever. We are hunters, good luck or bad.

So you might be understood as saying we are spoiling our youth? Stacking the odds IN their favor? Making it too easy? Interesting.

Things have changed though since our younger days. There are still more deer now, even though the population spike seems to be waning in some areas. So with the extras, we are marketing deer hunting to the youth by letting them get rewarded easier/faster. Marketing hunting against other interests that weren't available 25 years ago. All in an effort to keep the tradition alive in a world of short attention spans.

Kids do have it easier these days. People are putting them first more often. Is it making them stronger? Overall, I really don't think so, but the learning curve is getting steeper, faster.

Back to the parents. Which values are we teaching? Do we put them in the better spots, or are we teaching them how to find the better spots. Get the reward of a job well done, or just get it done? Would a youth hunter these days last for 10 blank seasons?

Thanks for the thoughts.

[96trigger]

Harvey, I greatly respect your opinion on this topic and many others. I understand what you are saying. I don't want to punish anyone, especially a youth. However, I agree with some of the above statements about instant gratification. My opinion has been, and probably always will be that hunting isn't and never should be easy. Many of us on here have hunted in lean years. I was 17 before I got my first deer. I have learned a lot since then and consider myself a pretty good deer hunter. I was able to harvest three deer this year and passed on many more. The DNR has a tough job. Too many people bank a successful hunt on tagging out. When that became the norm, people now want to tag a trophy buck every time they go out. I have always learned more from my failures than from my successes. I don't know a lot about zone 4, but it wasn't too long ago that zone 3 was a lottery area. Some years I drew a doe tag, some years I didn't. I still hunted, it never occurred to me not to. Youn hunters can now hunt 3A and 3B and shoot whatever they want. I just hope that we are teaching young sportsmen to be hunters and not shooters. They will learn more from spending a week in the woods working for that deer, than a couple hours and tagging out on the first deer that walks by.

[Surface Tension]

Instant success?

I'll bet my kid has shot more rounds at targets throughout the summer then most adults.

Did more scouting.

Spent more time in the woods.

Feels that its one shot, one deer.

Contemplates whats is good for herd management.

Stand Placement.

Was there to site in the rifle.

A safe and ethical hunter.

and watched more deer walk by the last four seasons them most adults.

A youngster isn't going to do that alone. It takes an adult to do that with them.

The act of pulling the trigger is a tiny part in his preparation but its the ultimate end to all that work.

IMO a kid that is all that has earned the right to take a Buck, to take a Doe.

I don't care what age he is, he won't hunt without me by his side till, hes been challenged with all aspects of hunting. Safe firearm handling. Proper care for a firearm. Knows the ins and outs of firearm actions. Knows safe and not safe shooting circumstances. Has passed multiple marginal shoots. Has heard that sound of something approaching and had it turn out to be another hunter. Has taken a few deer with me there. When I'm completely confident he is ready then he'll be on a stand alone.

Would a doe tag help him get there? Duh.

So there is no instant success, none what so ever.

What about the dad that hasn't done anything to prep their youth? If it takes the a doe tag to get the guy involved a little bit with his kid then, well its a start.

Let adults ruin it for kids?

[Craig_S]

Hey ST, you sure that's your kid? Sounds an awful lot like MY kid!

Craig

[Surface Tension]

Craig_S, super!

By your avatar it looks like he fishes too!

Were did he catch that lake trout?

[picksbigwagon]

96trigger,

I had that experience the past couple days. I was taking my brother in law and his son on their first deer hunting experience(SE MN, 3B). I put my 15yr. old Nephew in a really great stand location, his dad in a used travel route and I sat in the worst place on the farm, unless you wanted to count woodpeckers and squirrels. Thursday morning we saw nothing, and we headed in for the feast, the Nephew was still pumped and excited.

After gorging ourselves we (Oh yeah, I gorged)we headed out to an unfamiliar property we had permission to hunt. I put the B-I-L on a field edge, nephew in a stand, and I sat in the woods between them and took a nap. well about 4:15 my B-I-L shoots, I told both of them that I would come around after 15 minutes if I heard either of them shoot. He downed a 2yr. old Buck, could have taken a bigger doe, but he saw the horns, first deer I didn't care.

Nephew see's nothing that night and then see's his dads' deer and I can see that his is getting dejected. We hunt all day Friday, Nothing..... Nephew actually got out of his stand and wandered in the woods and sat next to me for about 30 minutes. I realized in that 30 minutes of talking with him about various stuff, he really thought it was gonna be like shooting fish in a barrel. (something that my sister-in-laws boyfriend guaranteed it would be )

Well, after that night, he just wanted to hunt with S-I-L's boyfriend, since muzzleloader started saturday. we drove 3 sets of woods and I think he finally understood that it is not like the video games. It took me three years to finally shoot a deer, and I started hunting when I was in my late 20's. The highpoint is that he is already talking about next year, I am planning new stand locations for next year as well . This was my first time taking a kid out deer hunting and I have a few more years before my own kids are old enough to go out with me. My youngest (almost 5) had a break down Thursday afternoon because I wasn't taking him out with me.

Youth tags should stay, if parents are gonna be selfish and shoot deer for their kids, you can't fix stupid......We don't need new laws to fix old laws that are pretty straight forward and simple to understand.

[harvey lee]

I believe that the goal of the youth program is to allow a youth to start out hunting with some direction from an adult. The adult can teach these youth the correct way to hunt, harvest and process a deer in the proper manner.

Now, here we are in the woods after gun training and all the homework that fathers or a mentor have taught their children and we now go afield searching for that deer that a youth has dreamed of and also looking forward to hunting with their parent or mentor.

Day 4 of the hunting season and deer movement has been very slow with the deer sighting being at zero for a good ethical shot. Wait, I see a nice doe 40 yards away in the clearing and I know I can shoot this one. Wait, some don't want this young person to shoot the deer because he hasn't paid his dues of going without for a few years and it would be instant gratification to let him have a doe tag and make it to easy. If he shoots this doe he has learned nothing about deer hunting.

Yes, many go through many frustrations in life and no, life is not fair by any means at all but do we have to penalize some youth for all their hard work learning to do the right things and then always have to go without?

I started out the exact same way that Franks son has being introduced to the outdoors and also the correct and safe ways to hunt. Yes, I also went many years without harvesting a deer in the beginning but that did not change anything. I started my son out the same way my father did with myself and he also had 1 or 2 slim years.

I would have really enjoyed harvesting a deer in my earlier years if there would have been a program to help me out.

It's wonderful that I and my son also continued to deer hunt without a successful first few hunts and didnt quit. We are not all cut out of the same mold and I'm positive that there are some youth that will give up after three years of nothing to show for all their hard work. The fault might have been that the previous winter was so hard on the deer population that the die off was huge.

So, I will continue to help out anyone I can in their goal to teach and train the youth and to also help with seeing that they see their dreams come true.

I help guide a handicapped hunt every year in North Dakota for all walks of life. They recieve a license for a buck or a doe. Gee, to bad that they had some misfortune in their lives but should we really help these people out?

I will as I believe that this is what all true sportsmen would do.

Sometimes it may not be that they need to learn from not succeeding but maybe just lending a helpful hand to those who could use it.

Why not??

[Whoaru99]

Fact of the matter is that there are still a lot of slob hunters that will do pretty much anything to get a deer...

EDIT: and will instill these same hunting "ethics" to their kids.