Permanent Deer Stands on Public land

[BLACKJACK]

On Jan 19 there was an article with a picture in the StarTrib concerning permanent deer stands, then on Jan 21 Dennis Anderson followed up, asking people for their opinions (go to startribune dot com, sports, outdoors). Below is my letter to him. What is your opinion on permanent deer stands on public land? Let hear about your opinion on deer stands, not on Dennis Anderson.

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My opinion on permanent tree stands on PUBLIC land is that they should be outlawed. Public is defined in Webster’s dictionary as ‘accessible to or shared by all members of a community’. By erecting a permanent stand, people are laying claim to that spot of PUBLIC land for their own personal use and that is wrong. The stand erectors claim that “anybody can use it” but realistically who wants a confrontation with another armed hunter? Who wants to ruin their deer hunting with such a confrontation? We all saw last year what can happen!!! The stand erectors also try to claim that “they scouted out a good hunting spot; they should be able to hunt it”. How do they know that I haven’t already found that spot, maybe I had been hunting it for years?

I had a situation several years ago where two weeks before deer opener I had scouted out a good deer spot, a tree line between two woods. I showed up early on the opener, found my spot, sat on my chair and got comfortable. About 20 minutes later I saw a flashlight coming thru the woods. I started flashing my flashlight; he stopped, but then kept coming and climbed up into a permanent stand less than 50 yards away!! That stand was not there two weeks before!! But now he had put a permanent stand out and was claiming that piece of woods as his. That is wrong.

Permanent stands on PUBLIC land should be banned.

[BDR]

My questions are what defines a "permanent"? Is it a stucture that is left all year/ Do portables have to be taken down every day and put back up the next? I don't know anyone who does that if they plan to hunt the same stand several days consecutive. Doesn't that Claim a piece of land just as well? Do portable guys always put there stands up the morning of the hunt in the dark? Maybe a very expierenced person could do this safely but I feel the acerage hunter would be risking injury. It is alot safer to put up a portable the day before in the daylight, does this not claim a piece of ground?

I don't have the regs here in front of me, but I do believe they state that portables on fed. land may remain thru the season and removed with a cerain time period. Is that correct? If so the only difference is that permanents can become an eyesore. And I agree with that.

Does a fishhouse not claim a piece off ice for the entire ice season. Maybe the very tip of that inside turn of my favorite structure? Then if I drill a hole close to his house I am the jerk.

I am really not for permanents scattered all over the woods. I just don't get alot of the arguments.

[PRWoody]

I agree with you on "squatters rights" on public land

when it comes to stands. But, I don't think that a

permanent stand is any different than someone placing

a portable ladder stand the week or two before opener.

I hunt next to Itasca State Park were portable stands

are the only legal stands and every year there are

arguements over who was here 1st and who stole my

stand. The last couple of years groups have been

coming up several weekends before opener, placing

their ladder stands in "their" selective spots and

locking them to the trees. Any difference than a

permanent stand? You be the judge.

[metrojoe]

I agree that the language defining a “permanent stand” would have to be clear. I think if a stand can be taken down and completely removed from the woods, even it was left up for the entire season, should still be considered a portable stand.

[Eric_Sieve]

Though I do enjoy using perm. stands and I think they have many great benifits, I don't feel they belong on public land. I define a PERMINENT stand as one that is made of wood and nailed into the tree...the other reason i am against them on public land is because they are an eyesore for some people the other 10 or 11 months that they are not being used.

[metrojoe]

Good point, once you drive a nail into a tree I think it should be considered a permanent stand.

[lawdog]

Here is what was in last year's synopsis

WMA'S p. 119

• Elevated Stands: A person may not construct, occupy, or use any elevated scaffold or other elevated device for the purpose of hunting, watching, or killing wild animals, except that portable stands may be used if they are removed each day at the close of hunting hours and do no permanent damage.

STATE FORESTS P. 127-128

State forest lands are generally open for hunting and other types of outdoor recreation. Hunting on private land within a state forest is subject to state trespass laws. A partial summary of state forest use regulations is included below. A complete listing is available from the DNR.

Elevated Scaffolds

• The use of portable tree stands is recommended, especially those which can be secured without driving nails into trees. Nails are a safety hazard for woodcutters and harm the forest. Personal property must be removed from State Forest lands. It is illegal to destroy state property, including the cutting of trees of four inches or more in diameter at four and one-half feet above the ground for shooting lanes. Littering and erecting permanent buildings are prohibited.

Where from any of this, has anyone ever gotten the idea that they can go nail up a stand and claim it as theirs? Its not only illegal to put it there, I can't fathom how you think it gives you the right to keep someone else out of it or the area around it.

They aren't allowed and they shouldn't be allowed.

[tripper]

Lawdog I agree with you on the point that they should no longer be there according to the law.

But from my stand point it is just another way that the DNR has excluded the ageing and disabled, that need the comfort of a permenant stand, from hunting any state forests. Realy the dnr cann't be blamed for it because it was really fellow sports people and anti's pushing the dnr for the changes.

All's I can say guys is remember, as you push for all these new changes, you to are ageing and it only takes a minor mishap or sudden unexspected health problem and you to will be out in the cold or worse yet setting at home in the easy chair watching on tv what you could be doing if you could just have a permenant stand and a little heat. Or you could still make use of that machine to get to a stand.

[lawdog]

Interesting thought. I really doubt that the small number of stands that may serve the purpose you contemplate have ever entered anyone's minds at the DNR. Regardless, I'm not sure that there aren't other ways to help some of these people (for instance the handicap/disability permits that are available) if that's the real issue. Even if there isn't, I'm not sure "Joe" getting old can be used to justify building a permanent blind on public property just for old Joe...

[Eric_Sieve]

I agree that just because they are older they shouldn't be able to circumnavigate the laws! But it was kinda mean how you said it! Ow well, gets the point across! I think that there are many good stands for older people to use, and they can usually find someone to help them set them up. And it isn't like if they don't have a stand they can't hunt! What is wrong with hunting from a ground blind!!

[Benny]

I would have to say that here in Minnesota, it is more a matter of tradition than staking a claim to land.

I don't agree with having permanent stands like the ones shown in the tree huggers pictures.

My thoughts are this, we should be allowed to use a stand that is removable regaurdless of size or comfort.I also think the laws should be changed to state they are NOT public property just because they are on public lands.

If some one goes out and spends money on a stand that is portable but to big to be moved in or out each day, it should not be open to any one who beats the owner out there to use it.

Now with that said, I also don't agree that any one should assume they have exlusive rights to the area just because they spent huge money on a huge stand.

But we need to have some sort of law or in still the sportsmanship into the hunting public that if you come across another hunter, don't sit up your stand twenty feet away just because you legaly can!

You all are yelling about the right to hunt any where on public land, well how do you like it when a person of the same mind set comes in 10 minutes after shooting hours and sits down on a stump right behind you?

Do you get up and move , or do you sit there and steam about the person, or are you brave enough to go over and confront another crazy mad man with a loaded weapon?

Come on people, we need to be more sportsman like and give each other the space you would like others to give you.

The only reason this whole debat got started was because some nature loving sole decided he or she didn't like the big ugly tree stand 5 miles back in a misqeto infested swamp.

Benny

[irvingdog]

The idea of being allowed to build your structure on public land has always amazed me.

Nails driven into trees endanger loggers and the logging process.

Hunting from ground blinds is unquestionably an equitable solution for the elderly/handicapped hunter.

[DrKen]

I would just as soon see perms outlawed on state land. I hunt state land where there are some perms left. Perms lead to several problems. 1. Nails, this may sound funny but this is a big problem for loggers. Each load they bring to the mill is run thru a metal detector and 1 nail in the load and they are docked big time. Remember logging is a major part of forest management and is absolutely necessary to maintain optimum habitat for wildlife. A climax type forest does not maintain much of a wildlife population or diversity. A mix of various stages and types of vegetation and open areas is required for prime habitat. It must provide food and cover for each season for a wide variety of animals. This used to done by fire but now logging is the method we use. Nails raise cain with sawmills and cause a dangerous and possibly lethal situation to a logger or a saw mill. 2. Permanent stands are often used by hunters more than sign in scouting resulting in possible conflicts. The people who build and maintain them feel they have the right to use them but others do jump them if possible. Outlawing them would help limit this. 3. As far as handicapped or disabled hunters. I have yet to see a permanent in our area that is easier to get into than ladder type portables. We used to have a couple of disabled hunters in our area and we always let them have the easiest acess spots. Most of us hunt in groups and would provide the help they needed to get the stand in and access it. Cripes, I'm able bodied and still appreciate help getting my stand in and out.

Well, that's my feelings.

[Guest]

Some of the ground blind options out there right now would be far better and more accessable tor older and disabled hunters than ANY elevated stand. They are light, easily set up and very portable. Not to mention easier to get in and out of.

[tripper]

Yup, put them all on the ground hid in a blind and in the line of fire of every other hunter in the woods.

Nails and loggers, I live in some of the heavest loged area in this state and know and have hunted with meny of the locale loggers. Guess how and where they put their stands. Now days they are in more danger of the blades comming off their slasher and the carbied tips coming off the blades then a nial in the tree. But I'll give you the nail point. So how's if old joes or disabled jims family or freinds go out and build him a free standing stand complete with half walls and a cover to keep snow and rain off the epuipment he needs to stay comfortable all day. I say all day because neither one wants to leave their stand and maybe disturb other hunters in the area. The stand is also cammoed to help it blend in. Would this be acceptable to you? Would you be willing to let joe and jim have their little patch of woods? After all it has been stated that few such stands would be needed to accomedate the numbers it would represent.

[96trigger]

Regardless of tree stand or not, you will encounter other hunters in "your" space. When I hunt on public land, I don't know if another hunter has been there two weeks earlier. I put up my portable and expect to hunt. Thats all I can do is climb up and hope they come from my direction and not yours. If we outlawed stands, we would just be sitting next to each other on the ground and the issue of public land would still be there.

As for permanent stands, there are some extremely nice, portable stands availabe now. These can seat two people, have a nice platform, a roof, shooting rail, etc. I do not believe that there is a need to build permanent stands anymore. Even on the private land I hunt, I put up portables. They may cost a little bit of money but it is an investment and it will last. Putting it up the first time sucks, but once you know what you are doing it gets much easier. The problem with people stealing them is one that I do get concerned with. I am always glad to see my portable is stillt there when I walk out to the stand.

Solutions? Limit the number of permits in an area like turkey hunting. Try not to give people such large areas to hunt. When I can hunt numerous areas, its an invitation to hunt in places where other hunters have maybe staked claim. Right or wrong, it may be a solution and would have to have a lot of kinks worked out

[Eric_Sieve]

I think that a fee standing structure is different from a tree stand perm. If it was a box stand that would be fine in my humble opinion!

[iffwalleyes]

I guess I don't like the idea of more regulations. I don't want someone sitting in St. Paul saying what I am able to hunt out of. I would have the same feeling if I had a portable or a perm stand out and I came and someone was sitting under the tree. It is kind of a squatters right deal. If a person put the time in scouting they should put a stand where they want. If they put in the time and don't put a stand up and plan to sit on the ground and come opening day there is another stand in the area too bad. How is that guy who put the stand up before the season suppose to know that someone else wanted to hunt it unless they marked it somehow. The most common way to mark is to put up a stand.

[bigbucks]

I pretty much agree with you iffwalleyes. It's better to know somebody's going to hunt a spot, so you can hunt somewhere else. Seems like they're should be some kind of registration if you're going to leave a stand out though, as far as when you plan to hunt it. The reason I say this, is for example I have 5 portables. Assuming I'm not letting other people use them, which of course I do, but assuming not, I could put all 5 up on public land & essentially "claim" 5 spots, yet I can only hunt one at a time. That's not fair either & how's someone else to know where I'm going to be at any given time? As much as I don't like the idea of never leaving the stand up, it seems like if you're going to leave one up you better be there an hour before light in the morning or 3 hours before sunset in the evening, if you expect to use it, to be fair to others. I still don't think that gives anyone the right to steal your stand, but hunt in the same area most certainly. Also I think if you come late & somebody's hunting nearby, you don't take your stand & move it either, you just move on & get it later.

I don't agree with whoever said not even using permanent stands on private land is the way it should be either. I've got great permanents in trees that wouldn't work for any type of portable other than maybe a ladder stand & they'd be far to visible. On private land if you have a great tree in a proven spot, why not build a permanent, with landowner's permission of course? Most of mine are built with scavenged scrap lumber, junk pallets, or whatever else I can find. The only cost is the nails, gas, & sweat. That's a lot cheaper than having 15 or more portables.

[Benny]

I agree with you statement whole hartedly!

Now that's where this whole thing about permenet stands really is coming from.

There are simply to many unethical hunters out there who think just because it is stated in a law that they can sit down right next to you and hunt the same deer trail you spent the summer scouting,that they should be able to just that.

I have no problem with banning permanent stands, I hunt on the ground right now any way.My big swivel office lounger is simple the nats behind , I have toyed with young bucks who were clueless as to what was making that grunt, than I ever did in a 15 foot high tree stand.

But in this world we live in now and all the logging,development and land purchaces we no longer have ample amount of woods to find a secluded spot to sit.

Just in the last two years I have had several people camp out right infront of the access road to the trail I walk to get to MY area.To bad for them I was up early enough and have 4x4 to drive around thier $150,000.00 motor coach so they had to walk all the way down the trail to find me smiling at them.

If I could afford to buy expensive private hunting land I surely would, then post the stuffing out of it so no unethical hunter could incrouch on MY land!

I still say we need to instill more ethics than laws!!

Benny

[Eric_Sieve]

See this is the exact reason I am going into law...anyone who comes on my land will be thrown right back off!

[Mark Christianson]

I just don't understand why it should be legal to bring in materials to publicly owned land and leave it.

Simple as that. I don't get it. It is owned by the public, so why should you be able to leave your "garbage"?

[hobbydog]

Quote:

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I just don't understand why it should be legal to bring in materials to publicly owned land and leave it.

Simple as that. I don't get it. It is owned by the public, so why should you be able to leave your "garbage"?

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I agree, that is my biggest complaint is that these things can be eyesores and are not neccesary.

There are rally two issues here. Building something on public property with no restrictions. If this is going to be allowed (I could go either way) then at least license them like fish houses or registar them like bear bait stations. Name and address needs to be posted.

The second issue is ethics. Most hunters, whether they have permanents or not have staked out an area they hunt. They may have hunted these same areas for generations. Does that give them right to the area? No, but if you try to move into one of these areas you need to respect those who were there first. If you are a lone hunter you can probably find a a spot without any conflict but if your group of 8 guys tries to just set up in and around the established group who has spent years scouting and developing their stands and hunt area....you are asking for trouble. There are places left to hunt, you just have to keep searching and maybe work a little harder to find "your spot".

I have found it amazing what the almighty "buck" (not money) will do to the average guy. I have seen it in my own party. Normally good guys can go nuts and do some totally out of character things when it comes to the pursuit of horns.....almost like a buck after a hot doe, they do things they wouldn't do in everyday life.

[lawdog]

Quote:

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The second issue is ethics. Most hunters, whether they have permanents or not have staked out an area they hunt. They may have hunted these same areas for generations. Does that give them right to the area? No, but if you try to move into one of these areas you need to respect those who were there first.

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Here is what I think leads to a few of the problems in this type situation though. The guys who have always hunted there assume these guys are slobs and just moved into "their" spots. The reality is though, its not "their" spot and these guys might have scouted this public ground real hard and moved there because of what they learned while the guys hunting because its "their" spot may not even scout it and bother to pick the best spot within "their" area. They just assume they'll be there and that the new guys are just stealing "their" spot when they don't even know if these new guys knew they hunted there in the past or how/why the new guys are there.

That's the problem with thinking you can claim part of public property as yours...

I do agree however, that there are people out there who come late, sit too close to others and all of that. Seen it, had it happen to me etc, so I'm not saying at all that it doesn't happen, and its surely wrong. I just think that some times in the deer woods and particularly where "my" spot is involved, the line gets blurred by some of those who maybe got outworked or just happened to not get there in time sometimes...

[Eric_Sieve]

People have always sat too close and came to late. It is just a fact of deerhunting on public land. It is something you have to deal with when hunting on public land unfortunately. Also, there is not a really solid way to regulate stands on public land. If a Warden comes across a guy sitting in a stand does he blame the guy sitting in it or the guy who put it up (assumeing they are different people) It's kind of like why make a law that you can;t enforce. I would rather have my conservation officers spending their time tracking down poachers than worrying about perm. deer stands. That is my 3 cents!