Dozer issues

[perchking]

I have a late 70’s model John Deere 450C that has been faithful to me until this weekend however, I don’t fault the dozer rather the driver.

 

Long story short, opening up a food plot I sucked in a stick which crushed the oil filter thus causing the loss of pressure and engine oil.  I did try to free the stick, but then shut off the dozer once I saw the oil.  The dozer was not running more than 2 minutes after the stick crushed the filter. 

Freaking out, I did try to quickly turn the dozer over for peace of mind and just heard a click which sounds like the starter engaging the fly wheel but nothing else. 

I have 2 questions:

Question 1. Can you pull a dozer that is in gear (reverse to be exact) if the engine is seized without depressing the clutch?  I hooked up my tractor and pulled it off a few rough areas to get a better look at it after the issue happened and the tracks turned over without any issues.  My logical thought process is you can’t because if the pistons are seized the engine is locked which would eliminate any movement of the tracks. 

Question 2. The stick or let’s say tree also ripped off a wire from the alternator, does that have any effect on starting the dozer?  I know where it goes and I need a new butt connector when I get back there in 2 weeks with fresh oil and filter.  I know if an alternator is bad, it drains the battery but this is not the case I still have over 13V at the battery.

 

Any input would be appreciated.

 

[PurpleFloyd]

3 hours ago, perchking said:

I have a late 70’s model John Deere 450C that has been faithful to me until this weekend however, I don’t fault the dozer rather the driver.

 

 

 

Long story short, opening up a food plot I sucked in a stick which crushed the oil filter thus causing the loss of pressure and engine oil.  I did try to free the stick, but then shut off the dozer once I saw the oil.  The dozer was not running more than 2 minutes after the stick crushed the filter. 

 

Freaking out, I did try to quickly turn the dozer over for peace of mind and just heard a click which sounds like the starter engaging the fly wheel but nothing else. 

 

I have 2 questions:

 

Question 1. Can you pull a dozer that is in gear (reverse to be exact) if the engine is seized without depressing the clutch?  I hooked up my tractor and pulled it off a few rough areas to get a better look at it after the issue happened and the tracks turned over without any issues.  My logical thought process is you can’t because if the pistons are seized the engine is locked which would eliminate any movement of the tracks. 

 

Question 2. The stick or let’s say tree also ripped off a wire from the alternator, does that have any effect on starting the dozer?  I know where it goes and I need a new butt connector when I get back there in 2 weeks with fresh oil and filter.  I know if an alternator is bad, it drains the battery but this is not the case I still have over 13V at the battery.

 

 

 

Any input would be appreciated.

 

 

 

Ouch. I don't have an answer but hopefully nothing major happened and you will be up and running shortly. 

[swamptiger]

4 hours ago, perchking said:

I have 2 questions:

 

Question 1. Can you pull a dozer that is in gear (reverse to be exact) if the engine is seized without depressing the clutch?  I hooked up my tractor and pulled it off a few rough areas to get a better look at it after the issue happened and the tracks turned over without any issues.  My logical thought process is you can’t because if the pistons are seized the engine is locked which would eliminate any movement of the tracks. 

Most of the John Deere dozers I've been around (although it has been a few years) had a torque converter, not a clutch, so you should be able to put it in neutral and pull it around.

Question 2. The stick or let’s say tree also ripped off a wire from the alternator, does that have any effect on starting the dozer?  I know where it goes and I need a new butt connector when I get back there in 2 weeks with fresh oil and filter.  I know if an alternator is bad, it drains the battery but this is not the case I still have over 13V at the battery.

The wire could be a hot wire that goes to the ignition switch.  If so, your starter wouldn't engage.  Did the engine quit running, or were you able to shut it off before it quit?  If it quit running before you shut it off, it could be an indication of a damaged or seized engine.

I would fix the broken wire first, and see if the starter will turn it over.  If it does, then put a new filter on, and refill it with oil, and see what happens.  If it doesn't show any oil pressure, shut it off,  your engine is damaged.

 

[perchking]

Everything happened so quick, I am not 100% sure but I believe I turned it off. Any thoughts on why I can pull it? Deep down I think it's seized but, I want to hear more about why I can pull it in gear. When I get out there in 2 weeks, I will be taking off the cowling and try to turn the fan by hand. If so, I will replace the wire to the alternator and doing an oil change. Oh, and crossing my fingers 

[Walleyehooker]

If the wire was not connected it probably wore down the battery and wasn't charging. If it did seize up you would have probably heard noise before it shut down. Does it have a temp gauge or an automatic shut down. Did it have oil on the dip stick and how much do you think ran out

[perchking]

I didn't hear a noise,  nothing is on the dipstick but as u know doesn't go down to the bottom of the oil pan. At most it was running for 2 minutes after a he stick hit the oil filter, the oil slick is clear that it happen on the pass before. Total distance of the oil slick is about 30 feet at best. It takes 9 quarts and I don't think it spit out all 9 quarts but I could be wrong. 

[Walleyehooker]

I would check the battery first. Reconnect the wire and charge the battery and fill it with oil. My guess it drained the battery and quit. Hopefully for you

[swamptiger]

1 hour ago, perchking said:

Everything happened so quick, I am not 100% sure but I believe I turned it off. Any thoughts on why I can pull it? Deep down I think it's seized but, I want to hear more about why I can pull it in gear. When I get out there in 2 weeks, I will be taking off the cowling and try to turn the fan by hand. If so, I will replace the wire to the alternator and doing an oil change. Oh, and crossing my fingers 

 

You can pull it in gear if it has a torque converter rather than a clutch, because there is no direct connection to the engine - it is like an automatic transmission.  Think "fluid drive".

If it had a clutch you couldn't move it in gear - you could still move it in neutral, however.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by swamptiger

[JOHNBIGDOG]

I don't think your "clutch" is a dry clutch like in a manual transmission in a car or truck but a wet clutch like in an automatic transmission. The clutch is drenched in oil and fluid pressure aplies and releases the clutch. So in theory if there is no fluid pressure there is no coupling between the tracks and the engine.

 

This is just a quick Google search of your dozers drive system.

 

If it's broke it's broke. Putting oil in it and a new filter is not going to make it worse. Fix the wire charge the battery and see what happens. Remember that most oil filters have a bypass built in so if pressure increases beyond a point you'll just get unfiltered oil. Tipicly the oil filter is not crushed though. Darn them "sticks" slash small trees.

[perchking]

Not good, it's seized.  I dont think my friend is telling me the whole truth on the amount of time it was running after the incident.  I only pulled out about 1/2 qt of oil when I changed it this weekend. Regardless, it's my dozer, its my problem, and I allowed him to drive it.  It is getting hauled away next week to see what my options are. 

 

 

[swamptiger]

Ouch...  this can get spendy.

If you have the capability to do it, the least expensive route would be to pull the engine yourself and haul it to a reputable machine shop.  At the least, the crank will more than likely need to be turned on a lathe, and new bearings installed.

 

 

 

 

[monstermoose78]

Sorry to hear

[perchking]

2 hours ago, swamptiger said:

Ouch...  this can get spendy.

If you have the capability to do it, the least expensive route would be to pull the engine yourself and haul it to a reputable machine shop.  At the least, the crank will more than likely need to be turned on a lathe, and new bearings installed.

 

 

 

 

I don't think it's going to be all that bad, a rebuilt engine installed is about 5K or so.  I am hoping to have about 3K into it once it's all said and done.  But time will tell.

 

 

[swamptiger]

1 hour ago, perchking said:

I don't think it's going to be all that bad, a rebuilt engine installed is about 5K or so.  I am hoping to have about 3K into it once it's all said and done.  But time will tell.

 

 

You can probably get it done for 3K, depending on who does the work, and how much rebuilding you do.

 

[Big Dave2]

Just curious, how much is a dozer like that worth?

[perchking]

It's a 1981, with a fairly new undercarriage. They typically go from 12-18K depending on maintenance records, blowby, blade configuration, and most importantly undercarriage percentage left. I think when I get mine rebuilt, it would now be on the higher side. 

[swamptiger]

They are a nice machine to operate, and they have good power for the size.

 

 

[Finns]

10 hours ago, perchking said:

Not good, it's seized.  I dont think my friend is telling me the whole truth on the amount of time it was running after the incident.  I only pulled out about 1/2 qt of oil when I changed it this weekend. Regardless, it's my dozer, its my problem, and I allowed him to drive it.  It is getting hauled away next week to see what my options are. 

 

(Long story short, opening up a food plot I sucked in a stick which crushed the oil filter thus causing the loss of pressure and engine oil.  I did try to free the stick, but then shut off the dozer once I saw the oil.  The dozer was not running more than 2 minutes after the stick crushed the filter. )

Sorry I can't help but was wondering by reading the posts.....Who was running the machine? Friend or you?  Which ever I hope all goes well for you.

[delcecchi]

Sounds like maybe the initial facts were changed to protect the guilty...     at first...

Edited August 29, 2017 by delcecchi

[RebelSS]

Whoa, tough one to swallow....hope at worst the top end is "all"....good luck.

[perchking]

2 hours ago, Finns said:

Sorry I can't help but was wondering by reading the posts.....Who was running the machine? Friend or you?  Which ever I hope all goes well for you.

You are right, not sure why I initially took the blame. Maybe to many Busch lights while weaping when it first happened. My 70 year old buddy was driving who is also my camp cook. Great guy and he did indicate to me it wasn't running long after it happened. Really doesn't matter at this point, it's my dozer he was helping me out while I was cutting the trails with the tractor and brush hog. 

I found a mechanic locally and it getting dropped off as soon as I pull it out of the woods with my tractor hopefully next week. 

[leech~~]

perchking, how goes the plight of the dozer?  Is she back up and running yet? 

[perchking]

I have it at a shop of a friend who is slowly rebuilding it over the winter. He is a retired diesel mechanic, so needed a winter tinckering job. It will be good for the old dozer to get a heated home over the winter, come spring I have some heavy projects on its plate so I want to ensure it's in tip top shape. 

 

 

[perchking]

Just got a call that the crankshaft is cracked on the dozer, he can’t find One anywhere I guess. I guess everything else is fixed and he sent out the current crank to get polished and before that it was inspected by some Machinist that discovered the crack. Just my luck! 

If anyone knows where I can find a 450c crank please let me know. Thanks 

[cam7069]

www.ama    zon.com/JOHN-DEERE-TRACTOR-CRANKSHAFT-S-AT18030/dp/B00CZGD932

Edited January 19, 2018 by cam7069