Propane Alternative

[brian6715]

Hey guys, so obviously the price of propane is killing a lot of us. I am a first time homeowner, bought the house in July and just could not afford to pre-buy or contract propane, due to down payments and closing costs. Anyway, We have a 2,400 square foot home with about a 7 year old forced air furnace (94% efficiency I believe) and we seem to be going through about 250-300 gallons of LP a month with the thermostat at 65-67 or so.

I simply can't afford to fill this tank if LP is around $4-$6, and part of me hates the whole idea of being reliant on these POS gas companies.

Long story short, I expect to have tax money back. It was supposed to go to a Yetti fish house, but I guess that may have to wait (ugh this growing old and being responsible stuff sucks). I just started looking at corn and wood pellet furnaces, and I figured HSO would be a good place to start.

A couple questions:

1) First off, I can't afford $8,000 for an outdoor wood furnace, I would ideally like to spend $2000-2500 for some sort of indoor alternative; is this possible? I have no doubts I could install it myself. I absolutely don't want to do the outdoor wood furnace option, so please don't bring that up.

2) I am not looking for a furnace to do 100% of the work, just ease the LP use. Does anyone have any experience with the little corn/wood pellet stoves that don't tie into your duct work?

3) Any good stores/dealers that I could go to to ask questions?

4) What will happen with my insurance?

5) Is this a pipe dream that couldn't be accomplished with $2500?

6) Do they make stoves that I could vent through an exterior wall?

I like to do my research before I do things, I am just overwhelmed with where to start with this... so any help/experience/advice would be GREATLY appreciated!!!

[Eric Wettschreck]

250-300 Gallons seems on the higher side to me. I'm smellin what you're steppin in when you say you don't want to be dependant on the gas companies, but here's a suggestion. Have an energy audit done on your place. You may be able to take that 2 grand and invest in energy savings in the home instead of getting a different heating source.

A lot of people would be surprised at the amount of heat loss/cold air in their homes have. An energy audit will open your eyes a ton.

[brian6715]

I thought it seemed high as well, we really only have one fill to judge it by so far, it was 320 gallons over a 41 day period (that period was not near as cold as the stretch we are in now, it was mid-November to the end of December). It's a 1970's home with 2x6 construction and new windows in 2007.

Thanks Eric I will look into an energy audit, I am open to any suggestions that help easy my dependency on LP.

[BoxMN]

Are you in an area where you could do a Dual-fuel or off-peak electric program? Usually it is rural or semi-rural areas that offer this, but it might open some options for you as supplement, with keeping costs down if you can find an electric source. I have infloor heating with electric boiler at my cabin, and it works well, though not sure about what it would take to retrofit radiators or something in already built home. Electric rates are about halved with duel fuel, and slightly better than half with full off-peak I think. Good luck!

[CAMAN]

Energy audits are always a good thing. Just don't let them do things that cost a lot of money and will only save a little over a lot of years.

And also don't let this propane jump scare you and make any quick decisions that will cost a lot of money that you won't make back right away. This spike should only be temporary(I heard a month until our LP reserves come back up) and this is not a normal year.

[PurpleFloyd]

The house is new enough that you should have good insulation in the sidewalls and the windows,if installed properly are up to snuff so the first thing I would say is Eric had a very sound suggestion. You can also do one of your own and check to see how much insulation you have in the attic. If you only have 3-5 inches as was more common in the 70's then I would first suggest adding insulation to the attic and bringing that up to industry standards as insulation is the biggest bang for the buck you can get.

Then, if you are looking at adding an additional heat source one of the indoor pellet/corn stoves might be a good alternative. I believe if you install it yourself you can find one in your budget and yes, they can be vented out the side wall but you need to use the proper chimney. Also, remember that the corn burns very acidic and on the stoves I have experience with you will find that the chimneys and the agitator will corrode and need replacement at some point. I know of several people who have put the free standing fireplace type units in their homes and they do a great job of heating and reducing load on the primary system.

Of course then you need to factor in if you are going to use corn or pellets, what they cost, how you are going to store your supply and how you have it delivered or what it costs for you to go get it yourself. There is a cost in that as well.

[Fishalittle]

I run a bixby pellet stove and think its great. Problem is corn can be spendy? Its cheap right now compared to the last couple years but almost double from when we first started burning it. In my experience with my stove corn burns cleaner, hotter than the wood pellets but I have been mixing 2/3 corn with 1/3 pellets in years corn was over 5/bushel. 2500 bucks will be a tight budget for everything you need but should be doable. Dealers have come and gone with Bixby but there are some online deals if you are sure you can handle the install. Bixby is the least maintenance/ cleaning stove I have seen. Their are other options. I guess I agree with the energy audit first- If you have other issues this will just mask them....still cost you more than if you fixed the issues, long term. Insurance companies can be a little tough on pellet stoves....just depends on how they feel about them...Some required things that couldn't be done to satisfy them ....others no problem.

Most all your pellet stoves are set up to vent through the wall. I put mine in the basement and had to do a riser up then out. Absolutely makes a huge difference in our house. We have electric off peak in addition to this.

[nolte]

Are you in an area where you could do a Dual-fuel or off-peak electric program? Usually it is rural or semi-rural areas that offer this, but it might open some options for you as supplement, with keeping costs down if you can find an electric source.

BoxMN has a good suggestion. I'd look in to your electric company to see if they have any Off-Peak heating programs. The cheapest option would be a storage option. These heat up at night (when electricity is cheap) and then pump out heat during the day. They could also have dual fuel rate, which lets you choose between gas/electric or an interruptible rate which allows them to cut out power at times of peak need. This only happens a couple times a month in heating seasons.

[Cheers]

I heat 100% with a pellet stove . 2800 sq ft for $1400 year. Can be run on a generator in the event of a power failure .My stove puts out 68000btu max and sells for around $3500 , it was the best stove that harmen makes

[Fishalittle]

They could also have dual fuel rate, which lets you choose between gas/electric or an interruptible rate which allows them to cut out power at times of peak need. This only happens a couple times a month in heating seasons.

I would say that depends on your power supplier. Our off peak dual fuel rate is off 3-5 nights in a week when it is very cold out and demand is high....that is why it is essential that your "dual fuel" is reliable!

[BobT]

Hey guys, so obviously the price of propane is killing a lot of us. I am a first time homeowner, bought the house in July and just could not afford to pre-buy or contract propane, due to down payments and closing costs. Anyway, We have a 2,400 square foot home with about a 7 year old forced air furnace (94% efficiency I believe) and we seem to be going through about 250-300 gallons of LP a month with the thermostat at 65-67 or so.

I simply can't afford to fill this tank if LP is around $4-$6, and part of me hates the whole idea of being reliant on these POS gas companies.

Long story short, I expect to have tax money back. It was supposed to go to a Yetti fish house, but I guess that may have to wait (ugh this growing old and being responsible stuff sucks). I just started looking at corn and wood pellet furnaces, and I figured HSO would be a good place to start.

A couple questions:

1) First off, I can't afford $8,000 for an outdoor wood furnace, I would ideally like to spend $2000-2500 for some sort of indoor alternative; is this possible? I have no doubts I could install it myself. I absolutely don't want to do the outdoor wood furnace option, so please don't bring that up.

2) I am not looking for a furnace to do 100% of the work, just ease the LP use. Does anyone have any experience with the little corn/wood pellet stoves that don't tie into your duct work?

3) Any good stores/dealers that I could go to to ask questions?

4) What will happen with my insurance?

5) Is this a pipe dream that couldn't be accomplished with $2500?

6) Do they make stoves that I could vent through an exterior wall?

I like to do my research before I do things, I am just overwhelmed with where to start with this... so any help/experience/advice would be GREATLY appreciated!!!

Check with your electric company and see if they have a dual fuel option. In many cases, they might even have incentives available to help defray the costs of installation. Normally electric heat is the most expensive way to heat a home BUT if your electric company offers a dual fuel alternative chances are the price of the electricity is considerably less when used on that system. In my case, I get the electricity at about 1/2 the regular KWH rate for my home heating system. At that rate, it is the least expensive option around. Even before the price of LP began to rise.

In your case, since you have a forced air furnace you could install a plenum heater and it would use the blower of your forced air furnace to distribute the heat. You'd set your LP furnace to a lower setting than your electric plenum heater so that it doesn't run except when the power company turns off the dual fuel heat system.

[fishersofmen]

I have a heat pump and plenum heater combo, also one of the large rooms down stairs has in-floor heat with a mini boiler. My furnace runs on natural gas which it will only use if the heat pump and plenum heater cant keep up. My house is 3,300sqf and my gas bill for December was $20 and I have a gas water heater. I am also on an off-peak program with the electric company. If your AC unit is getting old or anyone is looking to upgrade I would highly recommend converting to a heat pump. They are not much more cost wise and the payoff can be tremendous. My boss has a fuel oil furnace and he converted his condensing unit to a heat pump a couple years ago. It has already paid for itself several times over. Every single new home being built should have a heat pump installed instead of a normal condensing unit IMO.

[Down Deep]

Any house built in the 1970 was built with 1960's technology and materials and your house has been sitting there expanding and contracting for over 30 years. Energy saving construction design and materials has come a long way since then.

I like the energy audit idea, but get a 2nd opinion. Do your own research. There is a library of insulation and sealing information online about this subject and most of these can be accomplished by the do-it-yourselfer. With $2500 you can get a long way toward making meaningful improvements.

Remember that over the long term prices of all fuels are a going to flutuate up and down with an overall 20 year upward trend, so if you can reduce the total number BTU's you need to heat your space over the long term will be money saved no matter what your heat source.

This year has been an azz kicker and prices reflect that, but over the years propane has been competitively priced. A couple of years ago people were going to propane and dumping electric. Before you make a sizeable investment and commit to a new fuel source you need to make sure it will be money well spent and achieve the desired savings. Reacting to a short term price spike might not achieve your goal.

[leech~~]

Have you tried to balance the heat flow in your house? Start by turning the heat registers closes to the furnace down because the heat is the hottest near it as it comes out and then other rooms may not be getting as much heat if its all getting dumped into the rooms that are closest to the furnace. Also close down some of the rooms you don't really use as much. I have a buddy and in his Db wide cabin he always for some reason has the register in the bathroom which is like 5 feet from the furnace open full blast so the bathroom is hotter then hateys, but his back bedrooms are cold. Really he doesn't even need the heat on in that little room which is in the middle of the cabin and so close to the furnace as it will get enough heat just from having the door open when not in use.

[311Hemi]

I have a heat pump and plenum heater combo, also one of the large rooms down stairs has in-floor heat with a mini boiler. My furnace runs on natural gas which it will only use if the heat pump and plenum heater cant keep up. My house is 3,300sqf and my gas bill for December was $20 and I have a gas water heater. I am also on an off-peak program with the electric company. If your AC unit is getting old or anyone is looking to upgrade I would highly recommend converting to a heat pump. They are not much more cost wise and the payoff can be tremendous. My boss has a fuel oil furnace and he converted his condensing unit to a heat pump a couple years ago. It has already paid for itself several times over. Every single new home being built should have a heat pump installed instead of a normal condensing unit IMO.

What all is involved with this? I just built a new house and did not add it....was never even told about it. Would this not be worth it since I have a brand new furnace and A/C unit?

[BobT]

Any house built in the 1970 was built with 1960's technology and materials and your house has been sitting there expanding and contracting for over 30 years. Energy saving construction design and materials has come a long way since then.

I like the energy audit idea, but get a 2nd opinion. Do your own research. There is a library of insulation and sealing information online about this subject and most of these can be accomplished by the do-it-yourselfer. With $2500 you can get a long way toward making meaningful improvements.

Remember that over the long term prices of all fuels are a going to flutuate up and down with an overall 20 year upward trend, so if you can reduce the total number BTU's you need to heat your space over the long term will be money saved no matter what your heat source.

This year has been an azz kicker and prices reflect that, but over the years propane has been competitively priced. A couple of years ago people were going to propane and dumping electric. Before you make a sizeable investment and commit to a new fuel source you need to make sure it will be money well spent and achieve the desired savings. Reacting to a short term price spike might not achieve your goal.

Good points. With that I should clarify that my suggestion to look at electric heat was not to replace the existing system but to supplement it. By giving yourself a couple options, you can choose the option that is most beneficial at the time.

[fishersofmen]

What all is involved with this? I just built a new house and did not add it....was never even told about it. Would this not be worth it since I have a brand new furnace and A/C unit?

A heat pump is essentially a condensing unit (your outside AC unit) that has a reversing valve which switches your evaporator and condenser. You then pull heat from outdoor air and your evaporator becomes your condenser that puts the heat in your house. These can pull heat from outside with temps below 30*. I have a plenum heater that works in conjunction with the heat pump. This is simply an electric heating element that sits above your furnace in between the A-coil. Together these will run with temps down to around 0* before my furnace will switch over to gas. Plenum heaters are relatively inexpensive and to upgrade your regular AC condenser to a heat pump is maybe around $1,000 at the most. I don't understand why most companies do not promote this option because like you most people I talk with have never heard of them either or were never given the option when upgrading or building new. I have a degree in HVAC and every teacher I had at school had a heat pump at home and didn't understand why most people don't. I saved $220 on off peak electric in December too. If electricity were to go really high I can run strait gas as well.

[311Hemi]

Interesting. I know my electric company offers a dual fuel option with electric as the primary they said. Maybe I should explore this option a little more. My wife works for an HVAC company which I can get parts at cost.

This is from my electric companies site:

On the program, you pay only 7.85¢ per kWh (vs. 11.3¢) for all your air conditioning needs and only 5.85¢ per kWh (vs. 10.3¢) for all your heating needs.

How it works In the summer

A radio receiver and meter installed on your house, most likely near your ASHP, utilizes a radio signal to communicate with your air source heat pump and track its usage.

On days when demand for electricity peaks, a radio signal is sent to your ASHP telling the AC condenser to turn on and off.* Electric peaks typcially occur on hot and humid summer days. However, other conditions such as, but not limited to, unplanned outages and system emergencies are possible.

When electric demand decreases, the ASHP automatically returns to regular cooling mode.

Your ASHP fan will continue to run while the AC condenser is turned off.

[BoxMN]

Fisherofmen, are you saying that it is ~$1000 to "convert" my existing AC (new in 08) to a heat pump, along with any plenum changes? Or are you saying that if I was replacing the AC that it would cost about $1000 more to go with heat pump?

I sort of wanted a heat pump when we built, but I didn't know enough about them and unfortunately didn't ask any questions, as it sounds like a good option that would work from about March through December. Thanks for info.

[Smoker]

If you were to replace your A/C it would be a min. $1000 more above the cost of a new A/C unit. Where I work we suggest to go to a higher seer heat pump because you use it 10 months out of the year. That in turn will raise the cost of the unit because of the higher seer rating. The higher the seer rating the more efficant the unit.

[fishersofmen]

What Smoker said...above the cost of replacement AC, and yes it can be more or less based on efficiency. If you have a newer high quality AC it probably wouldn't be worth the investment unless you know someone and could get a good deal. But for someone that is ready for replacement or with new construction you cant go wrong IMO.

Down south heat pumps are the norm, for many homes that is all they use for heat. Up here they are not as common because of the more extreme weather changes but they are always an option. It may not be the best route for everyone but I am sure glad I have mine.