One deer permit area blues....

[92python]

I really enjoy bowhunting but there is something that doesn't seem right. On Sunday and Monday I sat for a total of 3.5 hours in two evening sits on different properties in permit area 172 and had 3 does 2 fawns and a spike that I could have shot.

If I were to shoot one - I would burn my archery tag for the whole season. Also since this is a one deer doe permit area for firearms and the rules tell me I am done in that area for the year if I shoot one. I bumped 6 deer in 5 minutes just trying to travel .3 miles to my stand on Saturday. Then had 4 more come right by in range within the next 90 minutes.

I wish the DNR would give archery hunters the use of a bonus permit in these areas. The firearms season is where most of the deer are harvested and that is their primary management tool. I know they are trying to build the herd back up but I am seeing piles of deer and the DNR seems to be a year or two behind what is going on with the herd at least up there and in areas 214 and 242. First it was shoot everything and now it is overly conservative.

Now in the Metro I can go shoot unlimited antlerless but good luck finding all those antler less deer. There just isn't that much public ground and the areas that do exist are overrun.

I spend a lot of time in the woods and run a couple trail cameras and in 172 the buck to doe ratio in the areas I hunt are way out of whack. The little bucks get whacked before they ever grow up since everyone wants so meat and most don't have a doe permit.

[deerminator]

I've suggested this to the big game coordinator and other St. Paul officials in the past. They said they would consider it but it seemed too complicated and that the gun hunters would not be in favor. And let's face it, hunting seasons and bag limits are social-based regulations, or rather, what the will of the majority wants, not what makes the most sense from a biological perspective. Or sometimes, whoever has the loudest voice. Look at APRs.

So, people want to see more deer across the state, the DNR manages for numbers and limits opportunities based on broad observations. People want bigger antlered bucks in a certain section of the state = APRs. People want to shoot more deer during gun season = longer seasons during the rut when deer are most vulnerable.

I think that if enough people cried loud enough for a bonus archery permit statewide, the DNR might just listen to that too. But I'm not sure enough would.

In the meantime, I have been scoping out WMAs and WIAs in neighboring counties that are "Managed." Ironically, I see fewer deer and have fewer ops, even though they seem like good spots and one of the WMAs even has corn planted in it by the DNR I assume. But then I go back to my lottery area and watch the doe parades. So I avoid those spots in my home area til later this month and keep scouting new land in the Managed areas. Good luck!

[bowhunternw]

There will be pockets of high numbers in every zone, I think the dnr has it right. Just be happy that you are seeing deer!

[InTheNorthwoods]

If I were to shoot one - I would burn my archery tag for the whole season. Also since this is a one deer doe permit area for firearms and the rules tell me I am done in that area for the year if I shoot one. I bumped 6 deer in 5 minutes just trying to travel .3 miles to my stand on Saturday. Then had 4 more come right by in range within the next 90 minutes.

I wish the DNR would give archery hunters the use of a bonus permit in these areas. The firearms season is where most of the deer are harvested and that is their primary management tool. I know they are trying to build the herd back up but I am seeing piles of deer and the DNR seems to be a year or two behind what is going on with the herd at least up there and in areas 214 and 242. First it was shoot everything and now it is overly conservative.

You are right, most of the deer are harvested during gun season. But that doesn't change the fact that a deer killed during any season is still a dead deer. The reason the bag limits are in place is due to the overall number of deer in a unit, and giving any hunter - bow, gun,or muzzleloader hunter - the ability to shoot more deer than the harvest goals for a unit, would be ridiculous.

I also don't feel like the number of deer you saw was that high. In fact, I'd guess you were hunting a food source, and that there is a good chance the deer you bumped were the same deer that came back within 90 minutes, and/or same deer you were seeing the day(s) before. I realize buck/doe ratios are out of whack in a lot of areas, but it doesn't do much good to try equal those ratios if deer numbers in general are below sustainable levels. It isn't until the overall herd numbers are in the goal range that it becomes prudent to try bring sex ratios together. Otherwise you are just reducing the ability to produce buck fawns (and fawns in general) necessary to reach ultimate deer herd goals.

[BLACKJACK]

I'm in the same boat, seeing lots of deer but in a one deer zone (277), don't want to end my season yet, so I'm also scouting a few WMA's in a neighboring Managed zone. Problem is that this zone is big, has a lot of farm land and low deer numbers in the southern part but more woods and deer in the northern portion.

Not sure if a bonus archery permit would be good, most of us would like it, but I think it would bring increased pressure to legalize crossbows in the archery season. More people would want to archery hunt and crossbows would be an easy way for them to get started. Just to clarify, I'm not against crossbows for disabled hunters but don't think they belong in the regular archery season.

[Moonshine]

Crusher-

I also hunt in zone 172. The properties I hunt have a noticeably lower population than four years ago, however better than the past couple years. Last year the doe to buck ratio was way out of whack, however getting better based on what I am seeing from stand and on camera. I was really suprised that the harsh winter didn't have as significant effect on the population as I would have thought. Hopefully a mild winter and low gun harvest will bring back our bonus tags next year.

I hunt in the Ponto Township area east of Backus. How about you?

[92python]

I am generally hunting in the Remer - Outing area and my spots are spread out over several miles. I don't doubt that the densities are spotty. The population is definately up over the last couple years which is good. Other buddies around Walker and Outing pretty much gave up bowhunting with the one deer rule.

Very mild winter 2 yrs ago and last year really wasnt all that bad if you look at the WSI in this area. More of a 1 fawn year than a twin fawn year like it was 2 Springs ago. I have a couple buddies that want to rifle hunt this year and we went 1 for 3 on doe permits. If that holds true across the area the little bucks will get shot up during rifle season.

Could have also shot does on many times during the past 2 bow seasons. I have passed on many does up there over the past couple years and have had to resort to metro zones to get venison but there are way more huntable deer up North. Metro is great if you have a spot lined up but good luck on the public stuff with all the hunting pressure.

[BoxMN]

That is sort of a problem I have with it too. I bow hunt (still new bowhunter) in the General Emily/Crosslake area. Hunters Choice.

My rifle spot, in Grant County, 120 miles away, is a Hunters Choice. If I shoot a deer in either, I am basically done with my other tag. I am not asking to even get a bonus, just USE my two tags. Since the two zones are not even remotely close, it doesn't logical that what I shoot in one zone has anything to do with the other, especially since they are two different types of tags. I get the "only 1 deer from the same zone" no matter what tags you have, but I don't see how it relates when we are talking 2 hours+ apart for the zones...

So I just have to decide, and I am not a deer hog or greedy, but it would be nice to be able to actually the tags that I pay for. I guess I can hunt here in metro with bow tag, but would like to hunt by my cabin. I guess I should just wait until after rifle season and see if get one, then buy my archery... heh. If this is my only problem, I guess I shouldn't complain

[1eyeReD]

I hunted my friend's land in 183, Carlton County, a few seasons ago. Primarily the west side of a big hay field with some woods covering that whole side and about 200 yds going in that is his. The acreage I was allowed to hunt was about 80. I swear, right around late October, I would count more than 30 does each night and for the most I ever seen during those sits, I lost count at 70. Of most those nights, I sat, I get multiple deer in range while the rest are in the middle of the field coming from all directions... Had some bucks come in too, but small so I passed, APR or not. It was lottery some years and hunter's choice some years, but I stopped going back..

It was just too much to bare. You drive 2 hrs up to hunt, get to see tons of action, but are so limited in what you can or want to shoot. I'd be up there every season if I could take a doe without burning my main archery tag (which like most, I want to save for a decent buck). I would actually pay a reasonable fee to access a place like that because of the odds of getting meat in the freezer are pretty high...

Instead, I chose to hunt public in managed areas where I see less deer which of the few I see are more pressured, therefore, alert - just so I can have the option.

Ya just can't win...

[Bear55]

I'm fortunate to live in a managed area so I have options with the bow. However if I didn't I would probably drive or camp in a managed area just to be able to whack an extra deer. My buck tag is like golf and rarely gets used unless there is a good one in front of me.

[TruthWalleyes]

I see more deer in the lottery zone I hunt than I do in the Apr managed zonethat i hunt... But I also know I'm sitting on some great land in that lottery zone and can understand how much of the rest of it isn't as good. The land in Apr managed zone isn't the greatest...

Branch out to other zones to shoot more deer if you want more meat like I do.

[mrjigger]

I totally agree with BoxMN. I am in the same situation. I hunt in two separate hunters choice zones which are 200+ miles apart. Seems rediculous that I can't take 2 deer, 1 from each zone using my bow tag and firearm tag. I bow hunt quite a bit, but many times I end up just watching the deer walk by because I still want to be able to rifle hunt.

The deer I am hunting in one zone 200+ miles away, are not going to travel to the other zone i am hunting.

I don't agree with having a bow hunting "bonus tag" though for 1 deer zones. If you shoot a deer with your bow in a hunters choice zone, you shouldn't be able to go back during firearm and shoot another in the same zone. That zone may as well be managed then.

[TruthWalleyes]

Because MN allows EVERYONE to purchase a deer license they have to limit you to shooting 1 deer in ANY lottery zone to eliminate the risk of having too many hunters in any single lottery zone which has the potential of removing the majority of the population. At least that is my thought behind it.

If they allowed that, i would hunt zone 238, cross the road, hunt 295, and then hunt the next closest of which i can't remember the number. I've got private land in both those zones and the hunting is fantastic in both those areas.

Also, MN DNR relies heavily on lack of hunter success. Can't sell all those licenses each year (Which fund most of DNR) and fill each tag and still have a population of deer. So, by limiting you on anterless in lottery zones, they also limit the success of hunters.

I have to chose how i hunt, where i hunt, and in what order i shoot my deer very carefully as i always try to keep a tag empty for a buck. But when i do decide to leave the managed zone and go hunt the lottery zone whether it be the same season or the next, i know i'm going to be using up my buck tag for that season. This is one of the reasons i have an Archery, Shotgun, and Muzzy license in my pocket.

Want to fill the freezer, you aren't going to do it in a lottery zone. Get in the truck and drive. Many of us do.

[deerminator]

Talking about APRs, how about this for a statewide archery rule: You get two tags for Archery. You tag a doe with the either/or and you're done for does for the year if you're in a lottery area. AND you can't shoot a buck unless it has 8 scoreable points. And you can only do this on Tuesdays shooting a Hoyt. Ok, maybe not that last part.

[Jameson]

Yeah, because the archery hunters that have already shot a doe are the ones shooting all the young bucks. Yeah, that would save a lot of yearling bucks from getting killed.

/sarcasm

[257ackley]

I hunt northern mn and in our area numbers are definately down. I hunt with a guy that complains about the numbers being down yet wishes we could still get 5 bonus tags!!

[deerminator]

No one said anything about archery hunters shooting all the young bucks. I haven't seen stats one way or the other. All I'm saying is it would negate a second doe kill and limit the buck opportunities. Again, no stats, but I've seen a lot of yearling bucks taken by bowhunters without much experience or who weren't so obsessed with trophy bucks and all the hunting shows on TV that say if you don't kill a monster you're not a very adequate bowhunter.

[bigbucks]

I hunt both in managed (214) & H/C (213) areas. I see as many deer in the H/C area, but LP is the junction of three different areas, so naturally for a ways out of the city in all directions the herd is pretty similar. I assume it's the Southern & Western parts of 213 that are more open, that have less deer in them. I hunt 213 less until rut, hoping to stick a doe early. (I've managed to botch that up twice already this year, 1 miss & 1 slow on the draw.) Once the rut comes I hunt wherever I think I have the best chance at a good buck for the conditions. Also tend to hunt the area I live in more on the weekends & the one I don't after work during the week as I'm already half way there.

[lakevet]

Muzzle loaders harvest less deer than archery, yet are required now to be lumped together with all the regular season firearms hunters and need doe permits. Archers, even though they harvest more deer than muzzle loaders do not need doe permits.

Archery season as it is has the most liberal regulations on what you can harvest of any season.

The option of APR buck bonus tag at a significant premium is an interesting concept.

lakevet

[paceman]

I bow hunt in a HC and then rifle in a managed. I tend to see way more deer in the HC but it is a better spot, big fields with woods. My managed area is mostly pasture so the deer pass through moving from cover to food.

[MattL]

It is frustrating hunting in a lottery or hunter's choice area when you are seeing alot of deer. I've always thought about applying for a park hunt in the metro or taking a weekend to hunt public land in a managed area to try to punch a doe tag, but I've never followed through. I've set pretty high standards to shoot a buck so I will continue being content eating my tag or attempting to take a doe on New Years Eve if I still have a tag.

Just a few years ago one area I hunted was managed and the other lottery so I could have potentially taken 3 deer between the 2 zones. That has now changed where one is lottery and the other is HC so I went from potentially 3 deer to 1.

[child23]

Just be glad you guys aren't hunting in zone 101 like I am. It's been 3years since I have seen a deer during rifle season. Pretty much since the TB was discovered our deer population went from amazing to non existent. I am finally seeing some more promise this year with a few bucks showing up but nothing like 8 years ago.

[SmellEsox]

You have to have patience. A year or two ago DNR surveyed hunters and the consensus was that hunters wanted higher deer numbers. So DNR started managing to increase numbers by limiting antlerless harvest. Add in a couple tougher winters and we still are in herd building mode. You should be happy. My area manager is always in herd reduction mode. Wish he'd about face once in awhile. Seems in central MN, the only good deer is a dead one.

[Bear55]

You have to have patience. A year or two ago DNR surveyed hunters and the consensus was that hunters wanted higher deer numbers. So DNR started managing to increase numbers by limiting antlerless harvest. Add in a couple tougher winters and we still are in herd building mode. You should be happy. My area manager is always in herd reduction mode. Wish he'd about face once in awhile. Seems in central MN, the only good deer is a dead one.

Yep taking time to rebound, we have been lotto for 6 years now and I am finally starting to see the results. It can take a lot longer for them to rebound "up north".

[PackerBacker12]

I also hunt 172, on public land. Everyone mows down any buck they see. Last year had 3 guys walk past us, all 3 shot spikes on opening morning. It sucks to see but what do you do about it.